Democratic Debate

nighttimer

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goddamn right it's the truth.

and leveling the charge of religious intolerance at me is rich indeed, when the president-as-candidate's religious intolerance precluded gay americans having the same rights as straight americans.

As rich as quoting Obama saying “I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God's in the mix" and characterizing it as an example of bigotry based upon his "superstitious beliefs" is anything but religious intolerance?

When you gonna get around to talking smack about the Republican bigots and their "superstitious beliefs" and how soon is never?
 

rugcat

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Oh, come on now.

I don't believe for a moment that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton "evolved." I don't think either one of them ever thought for a moment that allowing gay people to marry was any problem at all.

What they did think, and correctly, imo, is that at that time if they came out publicly in support of gay marriage, they would never be elected president.

So they both had to make a decision – stick to their principles and allow a republican to assume office (a Republican who would set back gay rights for a decade) or pretend to be in favor of civil unions, but not actual marriage, and keep their chance of being elected.

This is the type of choice politicians often have to make. You can call pandering if you like, you can call it dishonest, you can excoriate them for it.

Or, you can look at the actions Obama took to advance gay rights, actions which I believe Hillary would have also done, and judge them by the results they achieved rather than going down in flames for boldly proclaiming their true beliefs.

Then, they could have sat back and watched president McCain eviscerate gay rights, and smugly held themselves up as exemplars of great moral purity.

Talk is cheap. We all understand the hypocrisy of "do what I say, not what I do." You might also want to look at watch what I do, not what I say.
 

nighttimer

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don't put words in my mouth. obama got on the right side of history and was able to repair some of the societal damage he contributed to. good for him.

I'm sure that was a painful admission to make. Band-Aid?

When are you gonna get around to spreading around some of that societal damage still being perpetuated by the Republican presidential candidates who aren't interested in getting on the right side of history?

William Haskins said:
robert byrd evolved on race. but he (or we) never pretended he didn't have a past as a bigot.

The way Strom Thrumond never pretended he wasn't a bigot despite fathering a Black daughter? One dead Democratic bigot who evolved deserves one dead Republican bigot/hypocrite who didn't.
 

William Haskins

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this debate just got hawkish. they're flexing like bodybuilders in a pose-off.

not this debate, the one on tv with all the old white people.
 

ErezMA

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Got it. Better to be consistently wrong than learn and change. :thumbsup:


In news from 2015 instead of 2012 and earlier, pretty intense exchange between Clinton and Sanders on the merits of capitalism.

You don't get it. I'm saying that Hillary and Obama likely don't care at all about the voters. They care about the votes and gay rights were judged differently. It's now seen less of a difference in opinion and more of if you're a decent human or not. I'm guessing either they now say it to get votes now or the said it then for more votes, likely the latter.

I'm saying she's just as wrong as the repiblicans, probably moreso because at least they're honest with us on the issue
 

Magdalen

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this debate just got hawkish. they're flexing like bodybuilders in a pose-off.

not this debate, the one on tv with all the old white people.

Yes. Sen Webb does not like Ping Pong - Bernie is kicking ass, in my view!
 

Vince524

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Oh, come on now.

I don't believe for a moment that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton "evolved." I don't think either one of them ever thought for a moment that allowing gay people to marry was any problem at all.

What they did think, and correctly, imo, is that at that time if they came out publicly in support of gay marriage, they would never be elected president.

While I think you're most likely correct, especially about Obama, don't you think the same thing applies to some of the GOP candidates and why they won't endorse gay marriage? Certainly not someone like Huckabee who goes that extra mile on the issue or even Cruz.
 

raburrell

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@Erez: I get it. You'll take honest bigotry over an expedient political stance.

Me, not so much.


Actually on topic, I think I just heard heads exploding when Sanders said it was time to GTF Over Clinton's email scandal.
 

JetFueledCar

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@Erez: I get it. You'll take honest bigotry over an expedient political stance.

Me, not so much.


Actually on topic, I think I just heard heads exploding when Sanders said it was time to GTF Over Clinton's email scandal.

What's-his-face on the right said that it was a big deal. Anderson asks "Senator Clinton, do you want to respond?" "No." First time I've ever laughed at a presidential debate.
 

clintl

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Got it. Better to be consistently wrong than learn and change. :thumbsup:


In news from 2015 instead of 2012 and earlier, pretty intense exchange between Clinton and Sanders on the merits of capitalism.

Who allowed actual issues of substance to be discussed in an American political debate? Someone needs to be fired.
 

nighttimer

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Black Twitter weighs in:

Hillary Clinton said "God-given potential"--for a minute, I thought she said "gotDAMN potential!" Whew! #DemDebate

i still have no idea why jim webb is there.

#HillaryClinton is mopping up the stage. And somebody PLEASE loosen #JimWebb's tie!

O'Malley will have to explain how his terms as Mayor match w/ his now-progressive criminal justice platform. #DemDebate

Is Bernie yelling in his opening statement? Otherwise, it's a strong opening. #DemDebate

"...We need a new New Deal for communities of color." -- @HillaryClinton with possibly the byte of the night. #DemDebate #BlackLivesMatter

love both clinton and sanders not dancing to the media beat on several of these answers

"Fuck them emails, this country is fucked" - Bernie

All of you m'fuckas who flipped out about #BlackLivesMatter protests should apologize & shut the entire fuck up. It worked. #TWIBdebates

There really is brain power on this stage, but the question is who has the courage to be a real Democrat when it counts. #DemDabate

If the @HillaryClinton was actually going to be tough on the banks, why are they funding her campaign? #DemDebate

Did we just see a glimpse of the 2016 ticket? #DemDebate
 

raburrell

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don't put words in my mouth. obama got on the right side of history and was able to repair some of the societal damage he contributed to. good for him.

robert byrd evolved on race. but he (or we) never pretended he didn't have a past as a bigot.
Sorry, didn't see this earlier - that reply was directed to Erez, not you.

I'm pretty much with rugcat, that I think Obama supported marriage equality privately long before he did so publicly, but it's the public voice that matters. From my POV, there's no need to sweep the time he didn't support it publicly under the rug. It is what it is and whether he came around or felt the prevailing wind, I'm glad for it.
 

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Why am I hearing "Anything You Can Do(I Can Do Better)?" (That's not a criticism, as I hear the same thing during any of these debates.)

I did have a moment where I found myself almost agreeing with Bernie. Let the Muslim countries deal with the quagmire of Syria, et al.

Then I sobered up.

That won't work, since there's still that pesky Sunni/Shia problem of who's number one. It's doubtful that any of the more 'stable' Middle-Eastern countries would trust each other long enough to actually straighten that mess out.

Someone mentioned a wall earlier. Saudi Arabia is building a 600 mile long fence between themselves and Iraq. They've already done that along much of the 1,000 mile border with Yemen. And, yes, I'd be very surprised if they haven't already been talking to Russia about getting their own nuclear bomb. Just in case.
 

JetFueledCar

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To recap: The Republican debates have set the bar so low that not saying anything flagrantly sexist, racist, or homophobic is a triumph.

That said, I don't like that Sanders called killers "crazy." I've never liked violent people being called crazy, or implications that you have to be crazy to be violent.
 

ErezMA

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@Erez: I get it. You'll take honest bigotry over an expedient political stance.

Me, not so much.


Actually on topic, I think I just heard heads exploding when Sanders said it was time to GTF Over Clinton's email scandal.

I'm saying Hillary and Obama are just as bigoted, but are lying to get the votes that they want.
 

raburrell

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I'm saying Hillary and Obama are just as bigoted, but are lying to get the votes that they want.

Noted.

Any comment on the debate, or would you like to continue rehashing unsupportable talking points from several years ago?
 

ErezMA

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Noted.

Any comment on the debate, or would you like to continue rehashing unsupportable talking points from several years ago?

I haven't watched the debate yet. I will when I do, but I did find it necessary to point out the disingenuous and facetious attempt at vote-bating. Thank you. :)
 

cmi0616

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Things I learned:

- There are rumors circulating post-debate as to the whereabouts of Jim Webb's neck. If you have seen Jim Webb's neck, please contact the proper authorities so that it can be located and he can be reunited with it (i.e. his neck, which he currently does not have).

- Hillary is a good politician. A terrible liar and hypocrite, but a good public speaker, dodger of questions, and panderer. She won.

- Bernie doesn't do well with off-the-cuff remarks. He still has my vote, but... jeez.

- Martin O'Malley is surprisingly charismatic, articulate, and seemingly bright. I don't think he'll win the nomination, but he did very well.
 

ErezMA

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Oh, come on now.

I don't believe for a moment that Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton "evolved." I don't think either one of them ever thought for a moment that allowing gay people to marry was any problem at all.

What they did think, and correctly, imo, is that at that time if they came out publicly in support of gay marriage, they would never be elected president.

So they both had to make a decision – stick to their principles and allow a republican to assume office (a Republican who would set back gay rights for a decade) or pretend to be in favor of civil unions, but not actual marriage, and keep their chance of being elected.

This is the type of choice politicians often have to make. You can call pandering if you like, you can call it dishonest, you can excoriate them for it.

Or, you can look at the actions Obama took to advance gay rights, actions which I believe Hillary would have also done, and judge them by the results they achieved rather than going down in flames for boldly proclaiming their true beliefs.

Then, they could have sat back and watched president McCain eviscerate gay rights, and smugly held themselves up as exemplars of great moral purity.

Talk is cheap. We all understand the hypocrisy of "do what I say, not what I do." You might also want to look at watch what I do, not what I say.

I believe that I accidentally overlooked your post - sorry about that. And while I never voted for Obama, and never would if I could, I'm not the kind of guy to try to find a reason to give him crap. He made great strives, and I did appreciate that. However, I have no faith that Hillary Clinton, if elected, would do the same. There are many, many issues facing this country and seeing as she's unable to remember an attack in Bosnia that never happened, I could see her remembering the expansion of gay rights that she likely won't do, claiming that she was too busy with handling other countries (her involvement with Benghazi is a testament to her near-Godly international acumen,)
 

nighttimer

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I haven't watched the debate yet. I will when I do, but I did find it necessary to point out the disingenuous and facetious attempt at vote-bating. Thank you. :)

You've pointed out nothing except a propensity to bash two Democrats as unprincipled for seeing the light on gay rights while praising all the Republicans for refusing to deviate from their immoral principles.

Being a cheerleader for homophobic discrimination against Americans who only wish to love each other and live together as a married couple isn't anything to say "thank you" over. :e2cheer:

As far as the debate goes, my what a difference a debate without Donald Trump there is! Lower ratings. More substance. That's a trade-off worth making.

Bernie Sanders did well and did nothing to harm his status as the Ultimate Boogeyman of the Billionaires. Hillary Clinton was polished, seasoned and seemed to be enjoying herself. Martin O'Malley will make someone a very nice Cabinet secretary as long as its nothing too important. Lincoln Chafee should enjoy those two hours because those are the last ones he's gonna get on a debate stage. Jim Webb would be a very formidable candidate if he were only running as the Republican he once was and still seems to be.

Politics is the art of the possible and Bernie is full of possibilities. Politics is also the art of the doable, and since no Democrat is liable to make any headway with the Republican majorities in the House and the Senate (more likely of the two to change control), Hillary is better suited to position herself as the one who can get something done.

If nothing else, the Democrats have to feel a little bit better now to have finally rolled their 2016 models out on the showroom floor.
 
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