Is this considered plagiarism?

VeryBigBeard · Oct 11, 2015

I think it bears emphasizing that asking about this in advance is exactly the right thing to do if you're not sure. A lot of people just do it, sometimes without knowing the consequences, and this is bad.

You even figured most of this out for yourself. If it feels duplicitous, it's probably wrong. If it's a dodge, it's a bad idea. Plagiarism is almost always a shortcut and it's almost always done because of pressure, whether that's put on by yourself or by a prof or such. If something feels like it's too easy, it probably is. You have to write what you write. That you suspected it was ethically wrong is a pretty strong signal that it IS ethically wrong.

It is always better to ask for more time or write something worse than plagiarize. In school, it's a zero and there can be further penalties. Some people get caught up assuming that once one is out of school, plagiarism becomes OK. It doesn't. A plagiarist's career is over if he or she is caught--and they all are, eventually. There are countless examples of journalists, novelists, and other writers who have gone down in flames. Other writers and word-people tend to be very reluctant to work with thieves. It's also a serious enough offence that if an interviewer for another job finds out you've plagiarized you'll probably not get the job. It's too dishonest.

As others have said, the only way we learn is by writing badly. Sometimes, you run into a type of person who has maybe gotten away with it, or who thinks plagiarism is OK somehow--maybe it's done for "good" or something like that. Nope. I'm very glad you haven't done this because it can't end well, and you can get stuck in it. But you can never write a passable book using someone else's writing. There's no end goal to it--you can't become a better writer that way, you can only become a plagiarist. It can only be a way of hiding, and why would you put all the time into a book (with, frankly, very little reward even in the best case) when it's not yours? You have to believe in your own ability and learn to accept that you will have problems. Even the best writers have wonky bits in their work. Just keep going. Don't fall into the plagiarism trap. Resist those urges and identify them for what they are: nerves.

jjdebenedictis · Oct 11, 2015

LittlePinto said:
Third hit on Google. Pretty Little Liars #5, Wicked, by Sara Shepard. I don't even have to open the page to see that the content and syntax are the same, even if some words were changed.

Not that it matters, because Cassie Edwards got caught plagiarizing from some pretty obscure sources, but plagiarizing from a wildly popular series is soooooo not smart. The fans will hand your ass back to you sloshing in a bottle.

LittlePinto · Oct 11, 2015

jjdebenedictis said:
Not that it matters, because Cassie Edwards got caught plagiarizing from some pretty obscure sources, but plagiarizing from a wildly popular series is soooooo not smart. The fans will hand your ass back to you sloshing in a bottle.

That's what happened to Viswanathan. She took most of her material from Megan McCafferty, who was very popular with Viswanathan's intended audience. It didn't take readers long to spot the similarities and alert McCafferty and the publishers.

BenPanced · Oct 11, 2015

CryingKatie said:
But even with the words changed, it's not okay?

No. It's not. Others have warned you it is not okay, so it isn't okay. A couple links have been posted on what happens when plagiarism is discovered, and AW Admin has mentioned the repercussions of plagiarism in an academic setting. (Google Cassie Edwards and read about her shitstorm.) Work it out on your own, in your own words, without lifting passages from others' works, and you'll be a better writer for it.

gettingby · Oct 11, 2015

VeryBigBeard said:
I think it bears emphasizing that asking about this in advance is exactly the right thing to do if you're not sure. A lot of people just do it, sometimes without knowing the consequences, and this is bad.

You even figured most of this out for yourself. If it feels duplicitous, it's probably wrong. If it's a dodge, it's a bad idea. Plagiarism is almost always a shortcut and it's almost always done because of pressure, whether that's put on by yourself or by a prof or such. If something feels like it's too easy, it probably is. You have to write what you write. That you suspected it was ethically wrong is a pretty strong signal that it IS ethically wrong.

It is always better to ask for more time or write something worse than plagiarize. In school, it's a zero and there can be further penalties. Some people get caught up assuming that once one is out of school, plagiarism becomes OK. It doesn't. A plagiarist's career is over if he or she is caught--and they all are, eventually. There are countless examples of journalists, novelists, and other writers who have gone down in flames. Other writers and word-people tend to be very reluctant to work with thieves. It's also a serious enough offence that if an interviewer for another job finds out you've plagiarized you'll probably not get the job. It's too dishonest.

As others have said, the only way we learn is by writing badly. Sometimes, you run into a type of person who has maybe gotten away with it, or who thinks plagiarism is OK somehow--maybe it's done for "good" or something like that. Nope. I'm very glad you haven't done this because it can't end well, and you can get stuck in it. But you can never write a passable book using someone else's writing. There's no end goal to it--you can't become a better writer that way, you can only become a plagiarist. It can only be a way of hiding, and why would you put all the time into a book (with, frankly, very little reward even in the best case) when it's not yours? You have to believe in your own ability and learn to accept that you will have problems. Even the best writers have wonky bits in their work. Just keep going. Don't fall into the plagiarism trap. Resist those urges and identify them for what they are: nerves.

It's kind of common sense. Stealing is wrong. And then to ask again if stealing a little is really wrong is just ridiculous.

Filigree · Oct 11, 2015

Slight digression to look at the consequences of plagiarism in a more global sense.

Term paper mills have now started calling themselves 'academic support services', but they still operate on the same principle. A writer contracts with a client to produce 'samples' (wink wink nudge nudge) for the student to 'adapt' into their own work. Depending on the level of the project, the actual writer may come up with everything *but* the topic: all research, phrasing, structure, citations, etc. The excuse is typically that English-as-a-Second-Language students or businesspeople are too busy or culturally challenged to do the from-scratch method, so this helps guide them along the way.

Of course, what actually happens is the student never changes a thing. Or does it in the awkward, desultory manner shown in the OP. It's not in the actual student's 'voice' and it's a dead ringer to the professor or TA. In business (especially with MBAs for some reason) the clients treat it as another form of data outsourcing. There are several companies servicing this industry, which have tried to troll on AW.

The core problem is the same: the clients never learn how to write coherently in English. They're doomed to outsource their writing forevermore. They are functionally illiterate, often in fields where even a bit of writing literacy could make them stand out above the crowd.

In worst-case scenarios, since they didn't write or learn from the copied paper, they might not remember the information conveyed in the paper. Think about how many ways that can go really, disastrously wrong. Getting caught out as a plagiarizer is one thing - what about making decisions that destroy property or take lives?

I know it seems like we're all doing this

Wanting to be great at something, and being awful at it, is one of the worst feelings in my experience. I've experienced it a lot. But again, this is part of life. You don't get the gold star for just showing up or taking shortcuts, you get it by learning and working. That takes time and effort.

LittlePinto · Oct 11, 2015

gettingby said:
It's kind of common sense. Stealing is wrong. And then to ask again if stealing a little is really wrong is just ridiculous.

Unfortunately, I've run into high school students and even some lower level college undergraduates who don't know this bit of common sense. They do, in fact, think that if they just change some of the words around then there's no problem. I have no idea where they're learning it, but some of them can be remarkably stubborn about changing their perspective.

Filigree · Oct 11, 2015

They're learning it from term paper mills and the get-rich-quick ethos common in business. They've internalized it as part of the 'sampled culture' meme that has grown up around online digital display sites, and has its roots in art-collage and scrapbook movements and hip-hop samples.

I actually don't have as much problem with it as long as sources are cited. I believe in asking permission and paying licensing fees if they are reasonable. I don't favor punitive damages in a lot of cases (What the Rolling Stones did to Verve over 'Bittersweet Symphony' remains one of the great travesties of copyright litigation. It's the main reason I don't bother with the Stones now.)

The push to save time and money leads to some eye-searing papers and business writing, believe me. I drift in and out of the commercial ad-copy field, and each time I go back I'm dumbfounded by the growing incompetence from so many companies. It's often not worth my time to fight their marketing people tooth and nail, on what current copy and SEO tricks seem to work.

King Neptune · Oct 11, 2015

Obviously your example is generally regarded as plagiarism. Anytime you ask if it's is plagiarism it almost certainly is. But there are things that will be expressed the same way by multiple authors. For that reasons it will sometimes happen that a writer will write a phrase or even a sentence that is identical to something written by someone else; that is not plagiarism, but if it continues, then it would be amazing if it weren't plagiarism.

Sage · Oct 11, 2015

We've covered that it's plagiarism, but I wanted to point out that as an exercise, it can be worth it to take an author's work that you like and rewrite it yourself, focusing as you write it on why the author might have made the choices they made when writing it. Then try another author that you like and do the same, because their choices will be different.

Reading a lot will help, for sure, but sometimes when we're reading, we're focusing on the story, not the writing. Copying, as an exercise, gives you the time to think about the writing choices, while reading will probably help with the storytelling choices.

JetFueledCar · Oct 11, 2015

gettingby said:
It's kind of common sense. Stealing is wrong. And then to ask again if stealing a little is really wrong is just ridiculous.

I've gotten the impression from her posts that Katie is very young. I don't know at what level most people have a whole lecture on what is plagiarism and what isn't--for me, it was a mandatory out-of-class lecture for my entire class my first year of college. Realize first that I went to a college-prep high school. Realize second that this was the first time in my life anyone ever explained that copying syntax and changing words is still plagiarism. I knew it, or at least suspected it; but it was news to other people in that room, and I don't think everyone at every school gets such a lecture.

Which is to say, I don't blame Katie for this. I am encouraged that she suspected enough to ask, and I believe she was trying to convince herself it was okay because she's frustrated.

And Katie, believe me, I've been at the point of wanting to write but hating everything I put down. You'll get better if you just keep writing and reading. You won't need to take other people's words. Have a read through the "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim" thread, and pick up "Reading like a Writer" from the library. Then read and write until you like what comes out.

CryingKatie · Oct 11, 2015

Alright. Thanks.

JetFueledCar · Oct 11, 2015

Sage said:
Reading a lot will help, for sure, but sometimes when we're reading, we're focusing on the story, not the writing. Copying, as an exercise, gives you the time to think about the writing choices, while reading will probably help with the storytelling choices.

And jumping off this and my advice to read Uncle Jim--Katie, one of the pieces of advice in that is to type up the first chapter of your favorite book. (I'm remembering the source for that right, aren't I? It was Uncle Jim who said it?) That's not plagiarism, so long as you don't turn around and pass it off as yours; but it will start to teach you why things sound good when they do.

Filigree · Oct 11, 2015

I agree with JetFueledCar. Copying as an exercise is actually a great way to drill some of the structure into your head. I just did this with the first chapters of three old A. Merritt pulp novels, because I needed to get the 'voice' right for a dieselpunk project. I've done the same thing with sections from Andre Norton, Tanith Lee, Patricia McKillip, and several Shakespeare sonnets, to varying success. I learned from each exercise.

Just as an aside: I hate almost all of my writing, at its midpoint, more now than I did 20 years ago. If I don't hate it while it's in-progress, I start wondering what's really wrong with it.

VeryBigBeard · Oct 11, 2015

gettingby said:
It's kind of common sense. Stealing is wrong. And then to ask again if stealing a little is really wrong is just ridiculous.

I have absolutely no problem with asking as many time or ways as need be if it helps ID and convince someone that plagiarism isn't an easy exit. The get-rich-quick ethos mentioned above is pervasive and plagiarism has this tendency to seem both easy and victimless when it is neither, and the damage to oneself is severe.

gettingby, just to be clear: I agree with you. I can't stand plagiarists, I have fired them and will again (and yeah, bad SEO practices count as plagiarism in my book--if I find out you lifted ad copy you're off any project I'm running), and I especially hate those plagiarists that start trying to defend what they did. I actually had a fellow grad student try and explain that they had done it before, so it had to be fine.

But Katie is young, may not have heard this before, and at first glance the line between plagiarism, quote, and reference can look fuzzy. It gets easier as you get more practice, which is why the gut check is so useful. AW Admin's link can help with the technical definitions, and it's always OK to ask where that line is. I'd much rather someone ask than cross it.

JetFueledCar said:
Have a read through the "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim" thread, and pick up "Reading like a Writer" from the library. Then read and write until you like what comes out.

All of JetFueledCar's post is good, but especially this. That thread is something else. You pay money for the kind of advice in there, and it's all here on AW free. I still fall into that thread and just read for awhile. There are all kinds of exercises, too, right from just-starting-out to advanced stuff. It's a sticky over in the Novels forum, and though it is primarily about novel (or romance) writing, most of Jim's advice is pretty widely applicable.

Well worth a few hours to go check it out. It doesn't get linked as often anymore but I cannot overstate how useful a resource it is.

JetFueledCar · Oct 11, 2015

VeryBigBeard said:
All of JetFueledCar's post is good, but especially this. That thread is something else. You pay money for the kind of advice in there, and it's all here on AW free. I still fall into that thread and just read for awhile. There are all kinds of exercises, too, right from just-starting-out to advanced stuff. It's a sticky over in the Novels forum, and though it is primarily about novel (or romance) writing, most of Jim's advice is pretty widely applicable.

Well worth a few hours to go check it out. It doesn't get linked as often anymore but I cannot overstate how useful a resource it is.

I've had the thread open since I joined AW, working my way through it whenever I have time and my eyes don't hurt yet from reading on the computer. XD

Scriptissima · Oct 11, 2015

I agree with everyone else on the plagiarism aspect as well as on the practice often to hone-your-craft aspect.

What you are doing - taking somebody else's work and trying to pass it off as yours - is not OK, however, it can be a tool to analyze and learn new sentence structures or voices. So as long as you are only doing this as a practice for yourself with absolutely no intent to publish it, this might be a viable way for you to learn different voices and writing styles. Just don't ever take something you've reworded like your above sample and claim it's yours.

To give you an example: I have used a similar technique trying to figure out how to create naturally-sounding dialogue among characters that are far removed from a conversation style or diction that would come naturally to me. I would look up samples of dialogues by various writers whose protagonists roughly fit the protagonists in my story, then dissect the word choices and sentence structures, looking for similarities and apparent rules, then try to follow those similarities and rules in my own creations. But, again, this was practice only, nothing I would ever publish or claim as "my own". Once I figured out the mechanics of, say, a certain type of diction, I would move on from the borrowed dialogues and work on dialogues that were truly my work, unaided by these samples I had pulled.

So basically, as long as this is simply a technique for you to dissect and analyze certain voices and structures as part of your practice and learning processes, it is OK to do what you're doing. But you may never ever pass something like that off as your own work, because it simply isn't your work.

Jacob_Wallace · Oct 11, 2015

Why would you even want to cut it that close by modifying somebody else's work anyway?

Sword&Shield · Oct 12, 2015

It was already mentioned, but Kaavya Viswanathan did the exact same thing you listed here. Exact same thing.

Hint: It didn't go well.

NateSean · Oct 13, 2015

So you know that this is definitely plagiarism. Now I refer you to the same question I asked in one of your other threads, which is shockingly similar to the theme of this thread.

What is it about your story that makes you ask such a thing? You're just over fifty posts now, so can you post something in share your work yet? Half of your threads are about legitimate writing questions, but the other half come from such a place of self doubt that I feel like you're just aiming at your foot and dry clicking for practice.

So maybe you can show us some stuff and we can help you find ways to improve it, or at the very least, help you build your confidence that you seem to be lacking so much.

BethS · Oct 14, 2015

CryingKatie said:
I've come to realize this is the only way I can write something that isn't choppy and awful.

I hope you are only doing this for practice. Do not ever include anything like that in any work you intend to be seen.

And frankly, I don't see how it will help your own writing. The only way to do that is to write your own sentences in your own words, and if you think they are choppy and awful, then ask for advice and critique on how to make them better.

And read. Read, read, read. When you read, the whole language center of your brain lights up.

Undercover · Oct 14, 2015

The OP's example is called patchwork plagiarism: http://www.niu.edu/ai/students/section05/sec05page3.htm

LittlePinto · Oct 14, 2015

Undercover said:
The OP's example is called patchwork plagiarism: http://www.niu.edu/ai/students/section05/sec05page3.htm

Check out Rebecca Moore Howard's "Plagiarisms, Authorships, and the Academic Death Penalty". In it she argues that "patchwriting" is a technique used by students who don't yet understand the information or conventions they're copying, making it a step in the learning process. Her focus is more on the academic side than the creative writing side, but it's still an interesting read. (I'm not quite sure what to think of it myself.)

LilyJade · Oct 16, 2015

It is plagiarism hun...

And by doing that, it is cheating yourself out of actually learning to develop your own voice and your own works. I doubt many, if any, of us were all that good our first go around. It takes time, practice, and work to get to the point that we are all aiming for. By falling back on things like plagiarism, you will never get to that point.

(Note: I am not meaning when you use this for study and practice, I mean when you are actually doing it in a work in progress)

Is this considered plagiarism?

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