Mass shooting at Oregon community college

Magdalen said:

Please! Inaccurate mass generalizations fail to address the issue, and many others will surely agree or disagree. The state of mental health care here is a mess that needs attention now, is my initial response to these tragic events.

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There doesn't seem to be much addressing of this particular issue.

We went through this in Australia back in the 90s and fortunately the Port Arthur mass shooting united the nation and brought about a huge change to gun control. We still have armed police, occasional gun crime and many people still own guns. There's just tightened regulatory control which has so far prevented mass shootings.

I'm not trying to score points, but for those of us outside the US who love your wonderful country (I've been there many times) it's very sad seeing people die on a regular basis and no action taken on gun control.

screenscope said:

There doesn't seem to be much addressing of this particular issue.

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Well, there's plenty of talking about it. It's a very, very familiar script at this point. But actual action? I think it'll take a death toll north of twenty-five and live coverage of at least half of the kills before the nation collectively decides to actually spend longer than a week or two pretending to want to do something about this sort of thing.

screenscope said:

The sad fact is that America thinks these shootings are acceptable.

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No, no we don't.

William Haskins said:

every generation since the country began has been culturally frozen in time with a gun in its hand: the pioneer, the soldier, the gunfighter, the soldier, the backwoods bank robber, the mobster, the soldier again, the g-man, the soldier, the redneck, the soldier, the gangsta, the soldier and the soldier.
.

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At what point in our history did things change? Mass shootings seem to be a fairly new problem, despite (as you pointed out) a long history of gun ownership in this country. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm at a loss and can't seem to make sense of the mass shootings we've seen over the last fifteen years now.

I think it would serve us well to try to determine when, and why this shift occurred. It feels like we have a bigger, more insidious problem that we're missing, because we're all stomping our feet trying to be right about who should or shouldn't have guns.

We need to throw out this bullshit interpretation of the Second Amendment that somehow twists it to say "Every American citizen has the right to replicate Fort Knox in their living room."

And Pony, if this country didn't think this was acceptable, we would do something about it, instead of wringing our hands and offering prayers, as if prayers are going to do a damn thing for these dead kids.

I first heard about this when I was pulling up at my school, a community college, for my French class. There was a very strong part of me that wanted to get right back in the car and go home.

raburrell said:

Honestly though, it's what I want from gun owners - not for them to give up their guns, but to work with the rest of us on changing attitudes. I wish it didn't feel like it was asking the impossible

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It's not impossible. There's just a serious lack of trust on both sides. Beyond "mass shootings are bad," we don't even agree on the fundamentals, so it's hard to see how we're going to get on the same page about "changing attitudes."

ZachJPayne said:

And Pony, if this country didn't think this was acceptable, we would do something about it, instead of wringing our hands and offering prayers, as if prayers are going to do a damn thing for these dead kids.
.

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Like what?

William Haskins said:

and it's not all about just the paranoid rightwing types. go to any major democratic fundraiser in california and count the film producers and music producers and then go count the bodies in the product they flood into the culture.

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I don't see how that matters. This always seems to come up in these discussions--violence in media / entertainment is also part of the problem--but it doesn't hold weight. Extraordinarily violent movies are produced and made all over the world. The most bloody, violent movies I've ever seen come from Japan, Italy, and most recently from France. The Hong Kong film industry gained international acclaim by producing action movies that made shooting a bunch of people look like a goddamn beautiful ballet and yet has an obscenely low gun-related homicide rate. Two of the most violent, gun-happy kill-fests I've seen this decade came from a Welsh director. I watch rap battles and see dudes from Britain and Canada brag about how big their guns are and how many bodies they've caught. Every new edition of Call of Duty tops the video game charts in Europe. Many, many other countries indulge in violent media in their cultures and still don't have the actual, real life body count that the U.S. does when it comes to gun crime per capita.

Yeah, blaming the media for this one is a bit of a reach. I think the media CAN be blamed, on the rightwing Fox side, for fanning the mass hysteria about gun rights. We have our equivalent of Port Arthur every few years, and the Culture Warriors immediately swarm in lock-step to protect their rights to own 100 round magazines and assault rifles.

I grew up in a gun-happy state, I did target shooting and hunting from an early age. None of us needed assault rifles against deer and quail back then.

This is heartbreaking. We pass Umpqua Community college in Roseberg when we drive to visit my husband's family in Oregon, and I teach at a community college here in CA, so this hits close to home in more ways than one. We had our first ever shooting at the campus where I teach earlier this semester. It appears to have been a personal altercation, and "only" one person died, so it was just part of the background noise as far as the rest of the country's concerned.

One of the things I hate (yes HATE) about my country is that we've A. Got so many sadistic, entitled little fucks who are seething with whatever brand of hate is cool in their neck of the woods B. Guns are such a sacred value that we'd rather let these fucks get their hands on firearms than inconvenience or limit garden variety gun enthusiasts in any way.

William Haskins said:

i appreciate and respect your entire post, but have no faith that this part is possible. no time soon. it would take a tremendous amount of cultural reeducation.

this nation was born from the barrel of a gun, expanded by guns. it exists and survives because of and thanks to weaponry.

every generation since the country began has been culturally frozen in time with a gun in its hand: the pioneer, the soldier, the gunfighter, the soldier, the backwoods bank robber, the mobster, the soldier again, the g-man, the soldier, the redneck, the soldier, the gangsta, the soldier and the soldier.

and this is echoed across the culture and consumed voraciously.

and it's not all about just the paranoid rightwing types. go to any major democratic fundraiser in california and count the film producers and music producers and then go count the bodies in the product they flood into the culture.

you're gonna have to break some serious eggs to make this particular omelet.

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If I go to any major NRA event how many Republican presidential candidates will I find there fellating Wayne LaPierre?

If I go to any major Democratic fundraiser in California and count the film producers and music producers and then go count the bodies in the product they flood into the culture, I know how many bodies I will find.

ZERO.

The Dark Knight Rises is credited to nine producers and not one of them told James Holmes to kill 12 people. If guns don't kill people, movies and rap and heavy metal music don't kill people either. Not even polka music.

There's violent music and violent movies and even violent poetry, but there's never been a mass killing spree where the victims were slaughtered by flying CD's, Blue-rays or shitty haiku. Now guns? Oh, that's a much different discussion.

But really, why bother? Nothing is going to change. If 32 dead students and professors at Virginia Tech and 27 dead children and teachers at Sandy Hook Elementary and 23 dead in 1991 at Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas and 21 dead at a McDonald's in San Ysidro, California and all the other mass shootings/killing sprees didn't change a goddamn thing, what's ten more bodies on the pile?

Nothing. Nobody's going to even remember them except their families. The NRA is too powerful and own too many Republican politicians (but don't look for any relief from Bernie "I Love Guns!" Sanders, liberals) to change anything. President Obama can't rally the troops to turn temporary outrage into actual policy changes and even if he could, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell wouldn't give him jackshit in Congress.

Nothing's gonna change because the power behind the powers that be don't want anything to change. Nobody's shooting up any NRA conventions. Who would dare?

Your outrage doesn't matter. Your protests and online petitions don't matter. Your talking points and rehearsed lines don't matter. Neither do mine. The only thing that matters is who has the power to make a difference. We don't have the power. If we ever did, we don't now.

Let's all meet here after the next slaughter and do this all over again, okay? Unless the next time one of us ends up on the roll call of the slain.

It's a date.

Gretad08 said:

Like what?

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Like what they did in Australia.

Uniform legislation agreed to by all states and territories -- the national government has no control over gun ownership or use -- specifically addressed mass shootings: Rapid-fire rifles and shotguns were banned, gun owner licensing was tightened and remaining firearms were registered to uniform national standards.

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http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/world/us-australia-gun-control/

That will never happen here. We really have accepted that gun violence is as American as apple pie, although it is regrettable. But, oh well.

In cities like Chicago and Oakland, people are routinely murdered in the streets by guns. Just yesterday, a street artist just working on a mural meant to empower the community, a lovely and talented man, was approached by someone, an argument ensued, and the stranger pulled out a gun and killed him. Just another day in Oakland except that the victim was particularly sympathetic. No account of the suffering of the victims' families or the daily violence means a goddamn thing to people who want to keep the status quo.

After the Newtown massacre, where 20 kids were murdered with an assault style rifle by a mentally deranged young man, despite all the anguish and outpouring of grief, absolutely nothing was changed in terms of gun control -- not even a simple requirement for background checks. Apparently there is no massacre so horrible that it will convince people that change is necessary. That was the point when I realized it's truly a hopeless case.

I wish I understood why so many people let so much anger build up inside, boiling and rolling until it just explodes all over society.

And why don't more people fight back? At the point where one person starts lining everyone up, what have you got to lose?

I didn't and won't read his rant. Did it say why he'd be targeting Christians?

yeah i never said the media made anyone kill anyone. i pointed to the fact that the american obsession with guns and violence is echoed throughout the culture. even a basic understanding of acoustics should demonstrate that an echo is not the source.

Jcomp said:

I don't see how that matters. This always seems to come up in these discussions--violence in media / entertainment is also part of the problem--but it doesn't hold weight. Extraordinarily violent movies are produced and made all over the world. The most bloody, violent movies I've ever seen come from Japan, Italy, and most recently from France.

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And let's not forget that up in Canada, we watch all the same stuff as the USA, plus Men With Brooms and the difference from just walking across a line on the ground is pretty significant.

rugcat said:

Like what they did in Australia.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/world/us-australia-gun-control/

That will never happen here. We really have accepted that gun violence is as American as apple pie, although it is regrettable. But, oh well.

In cities like Chicago and Oakland, people are routinely murdered in the streets by guns. Just yesterday, a street artist just working on a mural meant to empower the community, a lovely and talented man, was approached by someone, an argument ensued, and the stranger pulled out a gun and killed him. Just another day in Oakland except that the victim was particularly sympathetic. No account of the suffering of the victims' families or the daily violence means a goddamn thing to people who want to keep the status quo.

After the Newtown massacre, where 20 kids were murdered with an assault style rifle by a mentally deranged young man, despite all the anguish and outpouring of grief, absolutely nothing was changed in terms of gun control -- not even a simple requirement for background checks. Apparently there is no massacre so horrible that it will convince people that change is necessary. That was the point when I realized it's truly a hopeless case.

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I'm absolutely disgusted that this keeps happening. I live near St. Louis. Last weekend my brother got married in one of the city parks. An hour after we left, someone was shot and killed, right where we'd just witnessed a beautiful ceremony. Later that night a man leaving the cardinals game was robbed, and shot in the back as he was running away. He's paralyzed now. Somewhere along the line many of our citizens have become desensitized to violence. Maybe not even desensitized to it. They actually enjoy and seek violence. If a gun buyback program would work, let's do it. I just don't see it being a feasible option at this point. I truly believe we need to understand why mass violence has grown, and why lone gunmen are terrorizing public places, especially schools. There's a deeper reason than "well, they have access to guns." The mental health of these people, and those who will surely come in the future, is our biggest problem, IMO.

eta: cross post

cmhbob said:

I wish I understood why so many people let so much anger build up inside, boiling and rolling until it just explodes all over society.

And why don't more people fight back? At the point where one person starts lining everyone up, what have you got to lose?

I didn't and won't read his rant. Did it say why he'd be targeting Christians?

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He was apparently anti- organized religion in general, from some profile on social media. And some kind of IRA nut, too, oddly enough. None of the articles about him is from a good source yet, imho, and what I saw didn't have links to the actual profiles, just screenshots and photos ostensibly grabbed from his pages.

He covers so many bases race-wise that if we do want to call him mentally ill, it won't cause an uproar, lol. Apparently he self-identified as mixed with like 3 races, though, seriously. Black, White and Asian, I believe it was.

Consider the analogy with medical diagnosis. Say there's some blood test that most people with early pancreatic cancer test positive for. Pretty cool, eh? We should use this test to screen everyone for pancreatic cancer every year. Think of all the lives we could save from this deadly disease that's almost never diagnosed until it's too late! But say that only 0.1% of the people who test positive for this test actually have pancreatic cancer, and identifying which ones actually do entails much more expensive and invasive follow-up tests. Not so great. There's a difference between accuracy and precision with screening tests.

This is the problem with using psychological testing and encouraging people to report everyone they know who exhibits of certain risk factors to detect these shooters in advance. There's actually a list of characteristics that most of these "lone shooters" share.

The problem is, for every one person who fits this profile and will go on to become a mass shooter, there are hundreds, if not thousands, more who also do but don't go off the rails and kill people. Some get past their issues, some don't. But it would be impossible to incarcerate, investigate, or institutionalize everyone who shows the possible signs, even when they express hatred towards groups of people (or particular people) or make generalized threats on social media or within their circle of friends.

I'm very much in favor of families, schools and communities being better at referring depressed young people to counseling, at least, whether or not they fit the profile of a potential shooter, but we've decided that this isn't a priority for us as a culture, because it costs money most Americans (or the politicians most Americans elect) don't want to spend. And there's no way to force someone who hasn't committed a crime yet to accept mental health care either.

Roxxsmom just made some excellent points.

This is an interesting and recent article from the American Journal of Public Health
Mental Illness, Mass Shootings, and the Politics of American Firearms

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/

Although the article states

Reports suggest that up to 60% of perpetrators of mass shootings in the United States since 1970 displayed symptoms including acute paranoia, delusions, and depression before committing their crimes.

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the rest of the article discusses how much more complicated this problem is than simply mental illness.

However, credible studies suggest that a number of risk factors more strongly correlate with gun violence than mental illness alone. For instance, alcohol and drug use increase the risk of violent crime by as much as 7-fold, even among persons with no history of mental illness—a concerning statistic in the face of recent legislation that allows persons in certain US states to bring loaded handguns into bars and nightclubs.49,50 According to Van Dorn et al., a history of childhood abuse, binge drinking, and male gender are all predictive risk factors for serious violence.51

A number of studies suggest that laws and policies that enable firearm access during emotionally charged moments also seem to correlate with gun violence more strongly than does mental illness alone. Belying Lott’s argument that “more guns” lead to “less crime,”52 Miller et al. found that homicide was more common in areas where household firearms ownership was higher.53 Siegel et al. found that states with high rates of gun ownership had disproportionately high numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides.54 Webster’s analysis uncovered that the repeal of Missouri’s background check law led to an additional 49 to 68 murders per year,55 and the rate of interpersonal conflicts resolved by fatal shootings jumped by 200% after Florida passed “stand your ground” in 2005.56 Availability of guns is also considered a more predictive factor than is psychiatric diagnosis in many of the 19 000 US completed gun suicides each year.11,57,58 (By comparison, gun-related homicides and suicides fell precipitously, and mass-shootings dropped to zero, when the Australian government passed a series of gun-access restrictions in 1996.59)

Contrary to the image of the marauding lone gunman, social relationships also predict gun violence. Regression analyses by Papachristos et al. demonstrate that up to 85% of shootings occur within social networks.60 In other words, people are far more likely to be shot by relatives, friends, enemies, or acquaintances than they are by lone violent psychopaths.

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It does seem that the one common thread in the majority of U.S. murders, mass shootings, and suicides, is access to firearms, and a solution most realistically able to be implemented to an effective degree, would be gun control.

And of course, the killings that happen within families, between domestic partners or acquaintance, and "only" result in one death rarely make more than the local news (if that), and the stories are quickly forgotten. Same for (as Rugcat pointed out) shooting that occur in areas that have the reputation for being "high crime."

Pony. said:

No, no we don't.

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As individuals you find it unacceptable. As a community, you don't find it unacceptable enough to actually do something about it. (General "you" there, not you specifically.)

Admittedly, I don't have the answer for you. The Aussies turned themselves around after Port Arthur, as someone else pointed out, but Americans aren't Australians and there's different cultural baggage. But it's happened so many times now that one would think there'd be some mass move to look for solutions, all over the media and in every political hall, every day for every year until mass shootings become a rare event rather than same old, "let's all feel very sorry until it happens again later in the day(!*) at which point we can all be very sorry again." But there isn't.

These shootings are collateral damage of American gun laws and gun culture, and that damage, sad as it might be, is at a level the nation as a whole finds acceptable. Might as well own it.


*Also today, another mass shooting in Florida.

I don't have time to look to see if this has been linked, but I love this article from Rolling Stone.

I have no words. My thoughts are with the victims, their families and friends. And also with the family of this deluded guy. It´s really sad.

I think you should stop saying this kind of stuff only happens in the US it doesn´t. (Remember the norwegian nazi?)
And I don´t think violence in the media is accountable for it. But I do have the feeling, at least from watching your media, that the american public has accepted some things as normal which are absolutely horrifying to someone like me. Which means, someone from those countries with very strict laws regarding weapons. You´re not even allowed to carry a "large" knife around...
I´ve watched "fear the walking dead" with my sweetheart and the most awful scene for both of us had nothing to do with zombies and violence on screen. Because those scenes are not realistic at all. As aren´t scenes where a shooting turns into a ballet. Most people can distinguish between fiction and reality.
But having a guy coming home from a church where addicts hang out and tell his wife that there was an awful amount of blood. And seeing her responding with a shrug: "It´s a drug den of course there are shootings and stabbings." (I paraphrised, because I don´t remember the exact wording.)
This was horrendous for me. How could the writers get the idea that shooting and stabbing is normal in a drug den in LA?