Alabama closing driver license offices in majority black counties

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Xelebes

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On the one hand, people argue that registering to vote should be the easiest thing in the world, easier than getting a driver's license, getting married, paying taxes, or even buying beer, given that a photo ID is required for the latter. Someone upthread argued that registering to vote was a confusing process.

OTOH, I hear constant arguments that voters aren't engaged or informed enough to wisely choose leaders. I note that that congress has a crappy approval rating yet their reelection rate is in the 90+ percent range. People argue that the Citizens United ruling means that money controls uninformed voters who don't vote on the issues, but on emotional reactions. Voters are expected to take the time from their busy lives to become well-informed about a myriad number of issues and where each of the many candidates they might choose stand on all of these issues; it's the price of living in a democracy, or so I've heard.

I perceive a huge incompatibility between those two goals.

You also seem to be shrugging your shoulders at the history of the United States where systematic attempts have been made to disenfranchise people for arbitrary reasons (disenfranchising because they are Black, Catholic, Irish immigrants, and so on.) Wonder how that factors in your analysis because it seems to be missing any nods to this history. That is what the majority of this fight has been around.
 

DanielaTorre

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I think this is being made a thing when it's not a thing. Just like everything nowadays.
 

Don

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You also seem to be shrugging your shoulders at the history of the United States where systematic attempts have been made to disenfranchise people for arbitrary reasons (disenfranchising because they are Black, Catholic, Irish immigrants, and so on.) Wonder how that factors in your analysis because it seems to be missing any nods to this history. That is what the majority of this fight has been around.
I'm not shrugging my shoulders at anything. I'm pointing out a huge incompatibility between two political goals, both of which are rightfully heavily promoted by fans of true democracy. I'm amazed that so many people can support such conflicting goals without their heads exploding, and that so few find the conflict worthy of note.
 

Xelebes

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I'm not shrugging my shoulders at anything. I'm pointing out a huge incompatibility between two political goals, both of which are rightfully heavily promoted by fans of true democracy. I'm amazed that so many people can support such conflicting goals without their heads exploding, and that so few find the conflict worthy of note.

There is no conflict going on here. The goal on one side is to maximise enfranchisement or at least minimise the disenfranchisement and on the other you have other political goals to be selective about the enfranchisement, often done to perpetuate old behaviours. Some people will not bother to vote - that is a given. But what people are saying is that putting bureaucratic red tape in front of voting disenfranchises more than it enfranchises and that is a big problem.

I mean, it's rather curious that a self-professed agorist would be hunky-dory with methodical approaches to remove the ability to affirm consent, but hey let's ignore the history and repeat it.
 

Don

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There is no conflict going on here. The goal on one side is to maximise enfranchisement or at least minimise the disenfranchisement and on the other you have other political goals to be selective about the enfranchisement, often done to perpetuate old behaviours. Some people will not bother to vote - that is a given. But what people are saying is that putting bureaucratic red tape in front of voting disenfranchises more than it enfranchises and that is a big problem.

I mean, it's rather curious that a self-professed agorist would be hunky-dory with methodical approaches to remove the ability to affirm consent, but hey let's ignore the history and repeat it.
Nowhere did I say I approve of voter disenfranchisement. I just pointed out what I see as a conflict. How you got from A to B I have no clue.
 

nighttimer

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You're not frantically waving your arms and making wildly exaggerated claims about it, Don. Duh.

Speaking of "frantically waving your arms and making wildly exaggerated claims", rewind your mind back to this post three years ago.

I hate to be a dick...actually, no I don't...but the absolutes being tossed out like this one and Opty's fraud that "doesn't actually exist" are incorrect.

Not having any reported instances of voter fraud and not having any voter fraud are too different things.

Given that there has been very little effort to prevent voter fraud and that many poll workers are barely trained, this isn't surprising.

People, by and large, will cheat if they can get away with it. Witness all the cases in my above link of people voting twice in federal elections. There's every kind of voter fraud imaginable taking place. Is it significant enough to warrant stomping it out as much as possible? That's a question that can't be answered either way.

I say now as I said then:

I call bullshit.

You can't prove there are widespread acts of voter fraud.

You can't prove "there's every kind of voter fraud imaginable taking place."

You can't prove
there has been a single example of voter fraud tipping the results of an election one way or the other.

This is robeiae's Great Pumpkin theory of voter fraud. He can't prove it is real, but he's sure it's out there. Never mind that his theory is what is "out there."

Before state legislatures start enacting laws to reduce the chances of someone trying to commit voter fraud, shouldn't they establish how wide spread the problem actually is?

The Republicans are building bridges where there's no rivers. They are committing a fraud against Black, Latino, the elderly and the young because they aren't voting "the right way."

It's obvious. It's a throwback to Jim Crow disenfranchisement and it's voter suppression and it's led by and masterminded by Republicans trying to deny American citizens their right to vote.

Prove me wrong.

Still waiting...:rolleyes
 

robeiae

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Answered you then. I never claimed there was "widespread" voter fraud so there's no reason for me to prove it is taking place. Insisting that I need to prove something that I never claimed is ridiculous. You've imagined what I said and think in order to justify a round of hand-waving hysteria.
 

nighttimer

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I think this is being made a thing when it's not a thing. Just like everything nowadays.

:nothing

Answered you then. I never claimed there was "widespread" voter fraud so there's no reason for me to prove it is taking place. Insisting that I need to prove something that I never claimed is ridiculous. You've imagined what I said and think in order to justify a round of hand-waving hysteria.

Oh, you mean the way you couldn't justify your round of hand-waving hysteria then?

"There's no reason for me to prove it is taking place"
is such an intellectually dishonest and factually devoid stance to take and others called you out for it at the time. What makes you think that sort of slippery dodge works now?

The claims of voter fraud were bullshit in 2012 and they're still bullshit in 2016. The Republicans have concocted a phony "problem" to implement new restrictions to disenfranchise non-Republican voters.

7 papers, 4 government inquiries, 2 news investigations and 1 court ruling proving voter fraud is mostly a myth

I give the GOP credit. When Republicans realized they couldn't openly circumvent the protections established by the Voting Rights Act, they came up with slyly ALEC-conceived legislation to make the process more difficult for the groups they knew they did poorly while spreading the impact upon all voters. Thus, they were protected from claims the GOP was targeting Black, Latino or students because now everyone had to show ID to vote.

Of course, not everyone has the same access to the same ID.

Got a driver's license? Sure do. Is it an out-of-state license? Sorry, not accepted. Don't drive? Well, go get a state ID card. Sorry, but we closed the DMV office nearest to you. How can you get to another DMV office? How about driving there?

It's brilliant. It's evil and a little bit racist, but still brilliant. :evil

There's nothing "ridiculous" to note how happily you carried water for the GOP's scheme then and continue to carry water for them now. What's really "ridiculous" is how the GOP whines when they are nailed to the wall for their nefarious scheme and their water-carriers echoes the whining.
 

nighttimer

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Oh no, sir. I said quite a lot with that short comment. Your condescending response intended to provoke and continue making this a thing only adds to the accuracy of my remark.

Actually, ma'am, you said almost nothing with that short comment.

What is not a thing to you is very much a thing to others.

The U.S. House member representing Alabama's only majority minority district district has requested that the Department of Justice investigate the closure of 31 driver's licenses offices in the state as a possible violation of her constituents' constitutional right to vote.


Rep. Terri Sewell (D-AL) released a letter Monday to Attorney General Loretta Lynch asking the department to investigate the closures in a state which requires government-issued photo IDs to vote. Eight of the 14 counties in Sewell's district will be without a DMV, the letter said.




"Despite a budgetary pretext, the consequence of this decision is to deny the most vulnerable in Alabama an equal opportunity to obtain a means to vote," Sewell wrote. "These closures will potentially disenfranchise Alabama's poor, elderly, disabled and black communities."


The closures, announced last week, drew a firestorm of criticism -- including from Hillary Clinton, who called them "a blast from the Jim Crow past" -- out of concerns that it will be that much harder for poor and minority citizens to meet the requirements for the state's tough voter ID law.

Nobody has to "make this a thing." It is a thing for the Black voters of Alabama whether your own condescending remark agrees it is or not.
 

c.e.lawson

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Got a driver's license? Sure do. Is it an out-of-state license? Sorry, not accepted. Don't drive? Well, go get a state ID card. Sorry, but we closed the DMV office nearest to you. How can you get to another DMV office? How about driving there?

NT, the above statement by you is not quite the whole story.

Before I get to that, though, how many people do you think have an out of state driver license who currently live in Alabama and want to vote?

I've said in this thread, and provided quotes from Alabama government links, that clearly explain that FREE voter ID cards are easier to obtain than driver licenses - the documentation required doesn't seem as stringent, and they are in very many locations including EVERY county's registrar's office PLUS mobile units as explained below:

http://yellowhammernews.com/politic...-voter-ids-will-be-available-in-all-counties/

Alabama Secretary of State John Merrill, who is responsible for administering and overseeing elections, says there will still be multiple opportunities for people in every county to obtain an I.D. valid at the polling booth.

“The closure of 31 DMV offices will not leave citizens without a place to receive the required I.D. card to vote,” said Secretary Merrill. “All 67 counties in Alabama have a Board of Registrars that issue photo voter I.D. cards. If for some reason those citizens are not able to make it to the Board of Registrars, we’ll bring our mobile I.D. van and crew to that county. By October 31 our office will have brought the mobile I.D. van to every county in Alabama at least once.

“One of the most fundamental rights we as Americans are afforded is our right to vote,” he continued. “As Alabama’s Secretary of State and Chief Elections Official, I will do everything within my power to ensure every Alabamian is able to exercise their right to vote.”
Additionally, groups wishing to host Voter I.D. drives in their communities can call the Secretary of State’s office at 334-353-7854 to schedule.

To paraphrase Daniela's eloquence - This is not a thing.
 

DanielaTorre

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Actually, ma'am, you said almost nothing with that short comment.

What is not a thing to you is very much a thing to others.



Nobody has to "make this a thing." It is a thing for the Black voters of Alabama whether your own condescending remark agrees it is or not.


You know what IS a thing? My fellow non-resident/citizen Hispanics (among other races) who risk themselves ever day to drive their kids to school and drive to work because they can't get a driver's license or ID. Period. Zero. No chance since the laws changed a couple of years ago. That's nationwide for the most part, by the way, not exclusive to one state.

I understand your anger, but you're reading too much into this. The only one being condescending is you, sir. Don't be condescending when you're sharing your opinions. It's often taken as provocation such as this instance.
 

Xelebes

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You know what IS a thing? My fellow non-resident/citizen Hispanics (among other races) who risk themselves ever day to drive their kids to school and drive to work because they can't get a driver's license or ID. Period. Zero. No chance since the laws changed a couple of years ago. That's nationwide for the most part, by the way, not exclusive to one state.

Relative privation said hello.
 

DanielaTorre

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Relative privation said hello.

If there was an issue, then perhaps my comment may be a fallacy, yes. The point I am trying to make is that these folks in Alabama are not being deprived of their ability to obtain a license whereas other don't even have that right.
 

Xelebes

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If there was an issue, then perhaps my comment may be a fallacy, yes. The point I am trying to make is that these folks in Alabama are not being deprived of their ability to obtain a license whereas other don't even have that right.

Don't mind the elephant. He only occasionally sneezes.
 

nighttimer

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NT, the above statement by you is not quite the whole story.

Before I get to that, though, how many people do you think have an out of state driver license who currently live in Alabama and want to vote?

I've said in this thread, and provided quotes from Alabama government links, that clearly explain that FREE voter ID cards are easier to obtain than driver licenses - the documentation required doesn't seem as stringent, and they are in very many locations including EVERY county's registrar's office PLUS mobile units as explained below:

http://yellowhammernews.com/politic...-voter-ids-will-be-available-in-all-counties/

A mobile unit is going to replace the closed offices? Isn't that just swell, peachy-keen and neat-o! That solves everything! :hooray:

I just hope everyone gets lots of advance notice when and where the mobile unit will roll up to their neck of the woods. I hope if they don't drive or there's no convenient public transportation or Uber, it's not too far for an older person to walk since they may no longer be driving. Hell, I hope they can walk because they just might have to.

The four remaining driver's license offices would be in the cities of Birmingham, Huntsville, Montgomery and Mobile, meaning that the cuts would hit people in rural areas hardest. Someone who currently can visit the office in Dothan in southeastern Alabama, for instance, would instead have to travel 107 miles to Montgomery or 186 miles to Mobile to obtain a license for the first time. (Renewals can be done online.)


The legislature passed Alabama's photo ID law in 2011, arguing that it would prevent voter fraud -- even though proven cases of in-person voter impersonation fraud are extremely rare. Voters had previously been allowed to show non-photo forms of identification, like a Social Security card or a utility bill. Now, if voters don't have one of the acceptable forms of photo ID, they can obtain a free Alabama voter photo ID card from a county registrar's office. And still some long-time voters couldn't vote in last year's elections, because they didn't have a way to travel to such an office to get the ID.


Bradley Davidson, executive director of Empower Alabama, pointed that people may not realize soon enough that the 2011 law doesn't allow voters to use expired photo IDs. "If the state limits the number of offices where voters can renew their licenses, I would expect to see an increase in eligible voters turned away at the polls," he said.


He called that outcome "another unintended consequence of a law passed to solve a problem that doesn't exist." Davidson said, "Impersonating someone else at the polls has been shown by multiple analyses to be an incredibly dumb way to steal an election, which is why it doesn't happen, in Alabama or any other state."
Nothing inconvenient about having to travel over a hundred miles to get some ID. Nothing too hit-and-miss about having to find where a mobile office is and being able to get to within the hours of operations its there.

Nothing but a plan to keep sticking it to the Black voters of Alabama. :e2poke:

c.e.lawson said:
To paraphrase Daniela's eloquence - This is not a thing.

Parroting or paraphrasing a one-liner is not eloquence. Sniffing something is "not a thing" when it clearly is for the African-American voters of Alabama is suggestive of the haves telling the have-nots they need to suck it up and get over it.

Someone who has posted 11 times in a thread cannot credibly claim "this is not a thing."

You know what IS a thing? My fellow non-resident/citizen Hispanics (among other races) who risk themselves ever day to drive their kids to school and drive to work because they can't get a driver's license or ID. Period. Zero. No chance since the laws changed a couple of years ago. That's nationwide for the most part, by the way, not exclusive to one state.

That's awful, but my fellow resident African-Americans risked their lives and lost them trying to vote and the Constitution had to be amended before they could even being to enjoy the rights Whites take for granted.

My fellow resident African-Americans had to suffer through various indignities to vote including literacy tests. Only through decades of protest, agitation, and demanding change which came slowly, painfully and bloodily over decades did it ever come. Now there are those who would like to rewind the clock back to the days when the Black voter was more rumor than fact.

I'm not going to sit here and stay meek and quiet because someone tells me "this is not a thing."

This is America. Nobody gives you anything if you only sit around and cry about it. You gotta get up and shake the tree. If they try to take away what you fought to get, you may not have to just shake the tree. You might have to chop it down.

DanielaTorre said:
I understand your anger, but you're reading too much into this.

Please don't tell me you understand my anger after you've told me this isn't a thing after I have documented in detail why it is. You don't understand my anger at all.

Perhaps I am reading too much into this. However, is it conceivable you aren't reading enough into this?

DanielaTorre said:
The only one being condescending is you, sir. Don't be condescending when you're sharing your opinions. It's often taken as provocation such as this instance.

I thought the exact same thing when I read, "this is not a thing." That was extremely provocative in its condescension.
 
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c.e.lawson

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I just want to make it clear that I never said the inconvenience of getting a driver license isn't a thing. It is. It sucks. And I hope Alabama can come to some kind of compromise for the people affected.

And I never said voter suppression isn't a thing. It certainly was, and in some instances may still be. And that's a bad thing.

But I don't think closing these DMVs is a purposeful act of voter suppression. And anyone who is able to get themselves to the DMV with the proper documents to obtain a license or non-driver ID should be able to get themselves to a registrar's office or mobile unit to get a voter ID card.

BTW, Alabama also has a provision whereby people who don't have the required documents can sign a statement to that effect and can still obtain a voter ID.

And people who go to the polls without ID can still vote if 2 of the poll workers vouch for them subject to a sworn affidavit.

But just so you know I'm not completely dense, I am starting to understand the sentiments here in terms of the history in that area. So I will respectfully stop arguing in this thread. And I hope the response of the community is to help each other obtain IDs rather than not vote.
 

DanielaTorre

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I thought the exact same thing when I read, "this is not a thing." That was extremely provocative in its condescension.


This was an article meant to provoke. It has zero substance and bases its claim on personal opinion. You have every right to be enraged if there was something actually worth getting angry over.
The point of the matter is that they are not taking away anyone's rights.
 

nighttimer

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This was an article meant to provoke. It has zero substance and bases its claim on personal opinion. You have every right to be enraged if there was something actually worth getting angry over.

That prompts two questions: Who gets to decide what's actually worth getting angry over and then who gets to tell me what's actually worth getting angry over?

Because I've never felt a moment's need to ask someone's permission to get angry about something.

DanielaTorre said:
The point of the matter is that they are not taking away anyone's rights.

The point of the matter is they don't have to take away anyone's rights. That would be against the law. The point of the matter is to skirt the law and if they make voting as difficult and inconvenient and impossible as they possibly can it still accomplishes the same goal.

The point of the matter is the Republican-led efforts to turn voting from a right into a privilege is based upon a false premise: elections are being stolen by fraudulent individuals posing as voters.

As it was proven three years ago, nothing could be further from the truth.

A new nationwide analysis of 2,068 alleged election-fraud cases since 2000 shows that while fraud has occurred, the rate is infinitesimal, and in-person voter impersonation on Election Day, which prompted 37 state legislatures to enact or consider tough voter ID laws, is virtually non-existent.

In an exhaustive public records search, reporters from the investigative reporting project News21 sent thousands of requests to elections officers in all 50 states, asking for every case of fraudulent activity including registration fraud, absentee ballot fraud, vote buying, false election counts, campaign fraud, casting an ineligible vote, voting twice, voter impersonation fraud and intimidation.

Analysis of the resulting comprehensive News21 election fraud database turned up 10 cases of voter impersonation. With 146 million registered voters in the United States during that time, those 10 cases represent one out of about every 15 million prospective voters.

“Voter fraud at the polls is an insignificant aspect of American elections,” said elections expert David Schultz, professor of public policy at Hamline University School of Business in St. Paul, Minn.

There is absolutely no evidence," Schultz said, that voter impersonation fraud "has affected the outcome of any election in the United States, at least any recent election in the United States."

The point of the matter is someone's personal opinion this is no big thing has zero substance when weighed against overwhelming evidence that indeed it is a big thing.
 

Tazlima

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The point of the matter is that they are not taking away anyone's rights.

Taking rights, when done by someone intelligent, doesn't happen overnight. If we woke up tomorrow with our rights completely gone, there would be an immediate uprising. Better to proceed so slowly that nobody pays too much attention. Let water drip until one day we wake up to find that stalagtites have formed right over our heads. We broke off our stalagtites once, but those who would keep new ones from growing can't afford to wait until new stone forms. They wisely listen for the sound of water.

This situation? Drip...drip...drip...
 

DanielaTorre

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That prompts two questions: Who gets to decide what's actually worth getting angry over and then who gets to tell me what's actually worth getting angry over?

Because I've never felt a moment's need to ask someone's permission to get angry about something.

The point of the matter is someone's personal opinion this is no big thing has zero substance when weighed against overwhelming evidence that indeed it is a big thing.

I think Chomsky gives great examples of how the media manipulates and controls. I think 1 and 6 best describes how one article can easily warp one's perspective and distract from bigger things. Article here.

I highly recommend Noam Chomsky's Media Control. Concisely and accurate reflects American society even 20 years after it was written.

Be angry, nighttimer. Just remember that being angry isn't going to fix anything. Publicly expressing your disenchantment with the world is not going to change it. Instead, opt for contacting the ones responsible for closing these DMVs if you believe this is the reason they did so.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
Taking rights, when done by someone intelligent, doesn't happen overnight. If we woke up tomorrow with our rights completely gone, there would be an immediate uprising. Better to proceed so slowly that nobody pays too much attention. Let water drip until one day we wake up to find that stalagtites have formed right over our heads. We broke off our stalagtites once, but those who would keep new ones from growing can't afford to wait until new stone forms. They wisely listen for the sound of water.

This situation? Drip...drip...drip...
I'm gonna take a copy of this post over to another thread where rights are being discussed...
 
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