Non-Sexist female descriptive

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Anna_Hedley

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people are so PC and gendernormasensitive nowadays so I'm not suprised this question is asked on forum.

Is there actually a cabal of "PC" people who are ready to jump out and pillory anyone who makes a statement that, when taken at its worst interpretation, could be considered racist/sexist/homophobic? I've seen this asserted a number of times but the closest I've ever seen to it actually happening is a couple of Tumblr blogs by young teens who are a bit overexcited about the idea of activism.
 

slhuang

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Words I've used when my characters are describing or talking about women:

woman, lady, miss, ma'am, sister (not for someone related), gal, chick, sweetheart, madam, babe, dear, darling, honey, bitch (affectionately), missy (he got punched for that one), female.

Nobody's called me sexist yet... (yet...)

Context is indeed everything.
 
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Kylabelle

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Chica is kinda nice. Biyatch is better.
 

Roxxsmom

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I've run across recently where most of the commonly held synonyms for woman could be considered sexist when either a male character or male author uses them. Since I'm a male author, and I don't write a lot of female main characters, I've had trouble finding words that other than "Woman" to describe female gender individuals that other readers of this site don't find sexist.


Isn't it a matter of context?

For instance, if someone says his wife is having a "girl's night out with her female friends," it's not sexist, any more than saying he's going to have a "boy's night out with his male friends." Likewise for girlfriend/boyfriend.

But referring to all sexually mature women as girls when he doesn't call his male friends boys in the same context? Not necessarily intentionally sexist, but it's a sign of the way men and women are viewed differently by society (which is institutionalized sexism). Likewise, referring to males and females in a biological context, like I was today in my class when we were talking about reproduction. But if you see someone referring to men as men, or guys, but women and girls are always "females," then it might be sexist.

As for ladies, it's the feminine equivalent of "gentleman," meaning a person of refinement and good manners (in the modern US, at least), and is a polite generic term too (as in, "go ask that gentleman/lady if they need help finding something"). But if you're using lady as a substitute for woman when you're not also calling men "gentlemen" it's possibly sexist. For some reason, there's been a reluctance to call women women. It's too raw, or associated with sex, or conjures up images of maturity (which aren't as desirable for women as men). Those reasons stem from sexism.

And of course many terms for women: chicks, dames, broads, birds, bitches etc. have been used primarily by men to objectify, even demean women individually or collectively. They're not words women came up with for themselves.

So the thing to consider is, even if the individual doing this doesn't mean anything bad or sexist about it, their word choices reflect some underlying inequalities between the genders.

Miss, even though it's commonly used in the South, sounds sexist to many women, as I've experienced on my trips to the north. Many women consider Ma'am to be matronly and not used outside of the South. The English have a number of slang words for women, none of them non-sexist.

There are indeed regional variations. I remember a thing some years back where a man complained about an elderly clerk in Washington DC who called him "hon." He said it was sexual harassment. She was southern, and to her it wasn't a sexual term, but a gender neutral thing she called everyone. For some reason, traditional female salutations get changed with age and marital status in English, but men's don't. This is an institutionalized form of sexism. So men are always "sir," but women go from "miss" to "ma'am" in middle age.

Except in my part of the US, almost no one gets called "miss" anymore, and younger men don't get called "sir." Younger people and store clerks start calling you "sir" and "ma'am" when you hit middle age. It's more symmetrical up here, but we're less formal as a culture. If someone needs to get the attention of a young adult they don't know, we just go, "Hey."

Having said this, if someone calls me "Ma'am" or refers to me as a "lady" I smile and suck it up. And if someone holds a door open for me (male or female) I smile and say thanks. And I'll hold doors open for men or women if I'm in front of them, or they're carrying something, or look like they need some extra help. I'm as feminist as they come, but I'm not going to assume bad intent.

On a writing forum, though, things are different. If we're discussing communication, feminism, gender issues etc., these things seem more natural to talk about.

The problem I'm coming up with is that there's no alternative words to woman for when a first-person male narrator encounters a female. There's no female equivalent to guy, dude, bro, or dude. Any thoughts?

No there really isn't at this point, except "gal" as an analog to "guy." This can also be regional. I know women and men who just use "dude" for everyone in casual conversation. I think words tend to show up when a need develops (like firefighter instead of fireman), but given the history of derogatory or patronizing words for women coming from men, it should probably be something women themselves come up with first (I suspect guy, dude, bro etc were coined by and for men first).
 

Once!

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When I rule the world I am going to ban thesauruses. Thesauri. Either that or I will jump in my time machine and assassinate Roget, Merriam and Webster. In that order.

Thesauroses don't tend to seem to be updated in the way that most dictionaries do, so they end up with a long list of words that almost no-one would say these days. Belle? Maiden? I wouldn't say that they are useless, but on a sliding scale from useless to indispensable they are much closer to the left hand side of the scale. They cause more problems that they solve.

"Woman", "girl" and "she" seem perfectly fine to me. We are writing fiction not a PC manual. Or be a bit more specific and call her a doctor, a professor, a friend, whatever. What we should avoid is constantly running to a thesaurus to find a different word because we are afraid to over-use a common word like "woman" or "girl". Far better to repeat a common word than to make it obvious that we have swallowed a thesaurus.
 

HeavyAirship

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Ladybro is probably ok. Yeah, just use that all the time.
 

Kylabelle

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:roll:

*points and laughs harder*

I guess the gender opposite of "ladybro" would be "gentsis", right?
 

jlmott

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I have nothing to add that hasn't been said already in answer to your main question, but I did wonder about one thing you wrote:

Since I'm a male author, and I don't write a lot of female main characters ...

You seem to assume this as a given. You shouldn't. I am also a male writer, but in the book I am currently working on, all the MCs are female. It's been done many times before, sometimes with great success (Joss Whedon and Buffy, for example).Conversely, no reason for female writers not to have male MCs (J.K. Rowling and Harry Potter, for one).

Not trying to criticize, but only suggesting a broadening of your perspective.
 

heza

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But referring to all sexually mature women as girls when he doesn't call his male friends boys in the same context? Not necessarily intentionally sexist, but it's a sign of the way men and women are viewed differently by society (which is institutionalized sexism). Likewise, referring to males and females in a biological context, like I was today in my class when we were talking about reproduction. But if you see someone referring to men as men, or guys, but women and girls are always "females," then it might be sexist.

Ugh! This just happened in a meeting at work. Men are all "guys" and "men" when management is talking, but any time women need to be mentioned, they're "females." As in, "We've interviewed several men this past week; you might have seen them around. For now, the females in the administration department will be handling those duties."

ETA: How do I mention this to managers. I am the only woman in my department, and I'm a little tired of my gender being referred to as if we're a different species.
 

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"Gal" unfortunately has a jaunty 1950s sound to it that "guy" doesn't.

Personally, I have no problem with someone using "girl" for someone up until they graduate college. After that, they need to become women.

If the OP wanted to give some actual sections of what he's writing (or simulations of such if he doesn't want to reveal his current WIP), perhaps we could be more helpful. There are times to use "woman" and the times to use "chick," and it's all dependent on voice and context.
 

kuwisdelu

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Lucy: Well, WE'RE girls!

Ethel: We are?

Lucy: If you divide everybody into boys and girls, we're girls!
 

Fruitbat

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The issue gets confused when we talk about what a character would say vs. what is nice to say in real life. Characters should say what they would say. I can't think of anything more boring than characters who exist only to carry out little public service announcements.

In real life, parallel/parity(?) is fair, I think, same level each way. Men and women, not men and girls. If people are on "honey or "sweetheart" terms with eachother, then safest bet is the same understanding and use of it both ways. Dudes and chicks. Ladies and gentlemen... Or even "Prospective penii" vs. "Where's the wool?" because the power issue behind that is equivalent, too.
 
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JetFueledCar

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One of my betas was put off by my male narrator assuming that the breadwinner of a house was the husband. I didn't change it because that's what he would do. So it matters more what the character would say than what you the author think is appropriate.

But to go to the college/YA point: A first-year college student is still YA, just barely. See Fangirl​ by Rainbow Rowell.
 

EMaree

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Nothing wrong with "woman" or "lady". "Girls" can work among females that are friendly with each other or of a similar age range, but a random bloke using it would definitely come with some baggage.

Honestly, this is a college, so wouldn't they mostly refer to people by their years? eg "Freshman girl" (if your protag is older than a Freshman), "a woman from the senior class"* etc?

"Female" only works if you intend to sound like a Ferengi.

(*I don't have the foggiest what Americanese is for a senior student, sorry.)
 

Latina Bunny

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Nothing wrong with "woman" or "lady". "Girls" can work among females that are friendly with each other or of a similar age range, but a random bloke using it would definitely come with some baggage.

Honestly, this is a college, so wouldn't they mostly refer to people by their years? eg "Freshman girl" (if your protag is older than a Freshman), "a woman from the senior class"* etc?

"Female" only works if you intend to sound like a Ferengi.

(*I don't have the foggiest what Americanese is for a senior student, sorry.)

^This.

It all depends on context, and your character's voice. Besides, all sorts of characters can be the main character or POV character, from nice people to murderers, etc.

Also, to answer Emaree's question: A senior student in America is called...well, a Senior. Lol. Simple as that. XD
 

JetFueledCar

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Also, to answer Emaree's question: A senior student in America is called...well, a Senior. Lol. Simple as that. XD

If you want to specify their gender, I'd use "senior boy" or "senior girl." If they're still in undergrad, I consider them kids. I think I did that even when I was a first-year--otherwise I'd have had to admit that I was on the verge of becoming an adult.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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My book has two narrators, teen male and teen female. Both talk about people into their early twenties as "girls" and "guys." He occasionally uses "chick" (or "dame," but only because he loves noir movies, and in a jocular context). Both sometimes refer to older women as "ladies," which is something I have always done even though my mom told me when I was a kid that the word was sexist. My editor changed a few of those "ladies" to "women."

So basically, I just imitated my own internal voice, which is not terribly PC. :)
 

Roxxsmom

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"Gal" unfortunately has a jaunty 1950s sound to it that "guy" doesn't.

That's an issue, or sort of a western feel. My dad always used the term, and he was of that era. It does pop up out here in CA sometimes, though. Maybe it's the complete lack of informal, non-derogatory or pedestal-izing words for women that drives it? They have "lads" and "lasses" in parts of the UK, but that never caught on in the US.

There are times to use "woman" and the times to use "chick," and it's all dependent on voice and context.

"Chick" was always fairly derogatory in my part of the country--something men called women when they were objectifying (let's go out and pick up chicks), or something people would use when they wanted to imply that the woman or girl in question was rude or lacked sophistication (so this chick comes up and gets in my face about...).

The strangest one were the people who pronounced the word woman "woah-man," though.

It would usually be in a sexist context, like a boss I had years ago who had a story about boarding a plane and realizing that there was a "woah-man" pilot, or saying something like, "There's this ugly, rude "woah-man" who works at the DMV." I haven't heard it for a long time, and it was mostly people in my parents' generation or older who did it. I think the implication was that she wasn't behaving in the expected feminine way (or appearance), hence the deliberate mispronunciation of the word, since she wasn't a proper woman?

For fiction writing, though, you really have to refer to men and women the way the characters in the book would. In contemporary college, rightly or wrongly, college students often refer to women undergrads as "girls," whereas they call man undergrads as "guys."

However the universities themselves have been using the terms "men" and women" in an official sense since I was an undergrad. "Men's residence halls" and "Women's residence halls," the "federation of university women," "Women's and men's basketball programs," "Women's health clinic," etc.
 
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Latina Bunny

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Being a young woman, I still call other young women, "girls". I've seen young guys also say "girls", too (or guys who are older than the young women).

I don't think it's sexist, unless it's a guy calling a middle-aged or older woman, "girl". Maybe. But even then, it would depend a lot on context, and how familiar the guy is with said woman. It also depends on the personality of the guy and his outlook on women. How he says it is also another factor.

ETA: It also depends on what the woman would like to be addressed as, or wouldn't mind being addressed as, too.
 
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Medea

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For undergrad, "girls" or "young woman" is fine. If she's above the age of 22, though, I wouldn't call her a "girl".

"Chick" always rubs me the wrong way because it dehumanizes, but that may be right for the character, so it depends.
 

Latina Bunny

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For undergrad, "girls" or "young woman" is fine. If she's above the age of 22, though, I wouldn't call her a "girl".

"Chick" always rubs me the wrong way because it dehumanizes, but that may be right for the character, so it depends.

My mom still says things like "girls' night out", and sometimes refers jokingly about hanging out with her "girls" / "girlfriends". She would also still call me and my friends "girls", even if some of us are older than 22.

Now, a guy saying that (especially for older women)? Hmm...
 

kuwisdelu

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My mom still says things like "girls' night out", and sometimes refers jokingly about hanging out with her "girls" / "girlfriends". She would also still call me and my friends "girls", even if some of us are older than 22.

Now, a guy saying that (especially for older women)? Hmm...

I just gave my 90-year-old grandmother a birthday card calling her a sassy girl.
 

Roxxsmom

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As all these examples suggest, context is everything, as is the relationship one has with someone.

And Kuwisdelu, you're a saucy rapscallion for calling your grandma a sassy girl ;)
 
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