Writing chapters vs. writing scenes

HeavyAirship · Sep 24, 2015

What are the pros and cons of each?

I wrote my first novel in chapters which sometimes contained several different scenes and POVs. It was easy enough to write that way but as I look at revising I realize that editing one scene could have a major effect on the flow and pacing of the whole chapter. On top of that, sometimes a scene which takes place over a longer period of time is sprinkled into several chapters amongst quick little scenes involving different characters which means cutting a longer scene could really jack up my chapters. On the positive side, I can take short and straightforward scenes and make them more interesting by changing POV characters within the scene or paralleling the events of several scenes as they unfold together. One of my scenes early on is a simple burglary but since I switch back and forth between the burglars and the homeowner it adds a lot of tension and suspense to the scene.

My current WIP is being written in scenes where I stick to one POV character. The pros are that it will be easy to edit and I find it's been easier to plan and write. The cons are that the chronology is a bit messed up since the first third of the book takes place in one day and each scene follows a character for several hours. Right now the second scene takes place mostly before the events of the first scene and the fifth scene takes place during the fourth and sixth. I don't know how it's going to read yet because I'm writing it out of order (the ability to do so is a pro for me).

I'm not very experienced so there are probably lots of ways to write that I haven't heard of yet but what do you think? How do you write and what are the pros and cons of your style?

Eric Long · Sep 24, 2015

From what I can gather, a novel should have chapters in it, and depending on the length of the book... You could either go with several short chapters, or few long ones. Either way, scenes are something that can occur multiple times within the same chapter. So if you want scenes, and have no problem setting them up, there really isnt a limit as to you you include them in a chapter, just don't go overboard with too many in the same chapter. All in all, it doesn't need to be one or the other, this is at least of course what I was able to look up and test in a few random novels I happen to have on my bookshelf~

My style specifically, I think I pretty much do what you did in the past, and I can relate to what a pain it can be when you have to go back to make changes. Only thing was for me... it was worth it. Pretty confident that, that's how most writers do it, but there are always of course other values and situations that can change the circumstances of the entire set up of the novel.

shadowwalker · Sep 24, 2015

I write in scenes, but chronologically. At some point, there's enough of a change in circumstances to warrant a new chapter, so that's what happens.

-Riv- · Sep 24, 2015

HeavyAirship said:
How do you write and what are the pros and cons of your style?

I write in scenes, not necessarily in chronological order, and I don't build chapters until late in the process. This works great for me, but everyone's way of working is different.

All the best,
Riv

JimRac · Sep 24, 2015

-Riv- said:
I write in scenes, not necessarily in chronological order, and I don't build chapters until late in the process.
Riv

I work in scenes similar to this. I usually have some initial idea of how the scenes will be grouped into chapters, but that initial grouping/sequencing almost always changes.

VoireyLinger · Sep 24, 2015

I always forget chapter breaks. My brain doesn't want to deal with formatting issues when I write so I'll end up with a 12K chapter followed by a 1k one.

I put in scene breaks then bundle the scenes into chapters when I'm doing the final format. Chapters usually have 2 to 3 scenes in them and are between 3K and 6K words.

Jamesaritchie · Sep 24, 2015

It's all in how well you do it. I don't even think in terms of scenes when writing, but each chapters turns out to be one scene. Stephen King may put two dozen scenes and POVs in a single chapter, and it works well because he does it so well.

I've read books that have no chapters. To me, they all suck dead dust bunnies, unless they're written in the form of a journal, or in the form of letters. I keep thinking, "Why didn't this idiot put a chapter right here so I could stop reading for the night?"

Journals and letters have natural stopping points. Novels without chapters seldom do. Unless there a strong reason not to have chapters, then have chapters.

blacbird · Sep 24, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
I've read books that have no chapters. To me, they all suck dead dust bunnies, unless they're written in the form of a journal, or in the form of letters. I keep thinking, "Why didn't this idiot put a chapter right here so I could stop reading for the night?".

Yeah, Gabriel García Marquez and Terry Pratchett, what a couple of idiots.

Finding a place to stop reading for the night is why God created the bookmark.

caw

HeavyAirship · Sep 24, 2015

So far my scenes have been between 3-5k words so I was planning on just making each scene its own chapter. I'm not sure how taking bits of different scenes and putting them together to form a chapter would work this time around but if the situation calls for it than that's fine.

Does anyone write their novels one character at a time? How about writing the first draft sans dialogue, then adding it in later, or vice versa?

I think some stories need to be written using certain methods in order to get the right kind of atmosphere or style. Does that make sense?

rwm4768 · Sep 24, 2015

I don't even think about scenes when I'm writing, and usually I end a chapter when it feels right. That is, I've resolved the main plot issue of that chapter and introduced a new one to lead the reader into the next chapter.

During revisions, I'll often end up with more clearly defined scenes than I had originally. I'll cut out some of the transitions I don't need, but that's it.

Probably not very helpful.

Adversary · Sep 25, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
I've read books that have no chapters. To me, they all suck dead dust bunnies, unless they're written in the form of a journal, or in the form of letters. I keep thinking, "Why didn't this idiot put a chapter right here so I could stop reading for the night?"

I've not come across this yet, but if i did, i'd be right annoyed. Its nice to have little 'commercial breaks' here and there. And after some time in the same book, you can at least begin to anticipate them, and when you can stop. I hate breaking right in the middle of a scene or chapter.

Eric Long · Sep 25, 2015

^ ya what lol, thats a thing? But Rwn is right. Ending a chapter when it feels about right is the way to do it, there is no required number of pages or words... so to speak, just don't go overboard. Just another one of those things that really reflects on a seasoned writer, knowing how to space chapters out and how many to include.

auzerais · Sep 25, 2015

Honestly, for me, a scene and a chapter are often the same thing. I like short chapters (mine hover around 3-5k) and I like packaging my scenes that way. Of course, I don't consider a scene to be an event that occurs over a long period of time. At best, my scenes last an afternoon. I write a conversation, a visit, an encounter -- if something happens to my character in the morning and then that event has ramifications on her dinner plans...that's usually two scenes for me. I guess I like small packages.

Travis Kerr · Sep 25, 2015

While I do things a little differently than the norm, creating the characters first, putting them in the scene, and letting them fly free to do as they naturally would, I can tell you what is generally recommended. For me my chapters are at natural stopping points; changes in the nature of a given scene, or moving on to a different scene entirely. Most writing coaches tend to suggest shorter chapters than what was usual in years past. Shorter chapters tend to give the reader the sense that the story is progressing faster, and a faster pace, even a perceived one, increases their excitement, which holds their interest better. I'm not sure if this is actually true or not, but I have read this same suggestion in several recent interviews.

WeaselFire · Sep 25, 2015

HeavyAirship said:
How do you write and what are the pros and cons of your style?

First, you should know that what works for one will not work for all. That means that the answers you get here really shouldn't have any effect on how you choose to write.

That said, if you completed a work and it was either accepted by an agent or publisher or passes muster with beta readers, why change what's working?

Jeff

sk3erkrou · Sep 25, 2015

I wrote my first novel by chapters. Then, I tried to replicate a few times, and it never worked. With my current WIP, I am writing by scene, taking my hints from plays where the scene changes whenever time or location changes. That means if a character walks into a house, the scene changes. I like this, because now I have many small scenes as characters move around, instead of large blocks of text. I will eventually knit these together into chapters. Probably after at least one editing pass.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Sep 25, 2015

HeavyAirship said:
So far my scenes have been between 3-5k words so I was planning on just making each scene its own chapter.

The only problem I see with making scene and chapter synonymous is that it might make for a monotonous pace. If all your scenes are between 3k and 5k, that's a lot of long scenes... I like to break mine up by inserting shorter scenes, sometimes only 500 words or so, to show whats happening to another character or in another plot thread. This often means POV change, although I do stay with the MC for whole chapters sometimes. It helps to keep the pace up and keeps the reader's interest. In the back half of the novel, longer scenes became the exception that broke up the shorter ones, as the pace got quicker and I needed to slow it down rather than speed it up.

My chapters are usually 4 - 6k long, but they are comprised of anything from 3 to 6 scenes. That gives me a lot of leeway to change up the pace.

Travis Kerr said:
For me my chapters are at natural stopping points; changes in the nature of a given scene, or moving on to a different scene entirely.

For me, that is what a scene break is - a natural moving on point, where the plot/story purpose of the scene has been fulfilled. Or if the scene goes on a long time, I find a place to break it up and come back to it. Entrances and exits and location changes are natural scene breaks.

For me, chapter breaks are to do with plot units. The end of one chapter introduces a plot development, and the next chapter runs with it until it is either resolved, or another development comes along and complicates it. I try to leave an unanswered story question at the end of each chapter, even if it is only 'how will so and so react to that?' - and then the next chapter might start with exactly what so and so does in reaction to the previous chapter.

Travis Kerr said:
Most writing coaches tend to suggest shorter chapters than what was usual in years past. Shorter chapters tend to give the reader the sense that the story is progressing faster, and a faster pace, even a perceived one, increases their excitement, which holds their interest better. I'm not sure if this is actually true or not, but I have read this same suggestion in several recent interviews.

As I said, I don't think this is necessarily true on a chapter level, but certainly on a scene level. A chapter can be very long, but if it is made up of many short scenes it can still be fast paced. The only thing that makes long chapters feel long is lack of scene breaks

HeavyAirship · Sep 25, 2015

WeaselFire said:
First, you should know that what works for one will not work for all. That means that the answers you get here really shouldn't have any effect on how you choose to write.

That said, if you completed a work and it was either accepted by an agent or publisher or passes muster with beta readers, why change what's working?

Jeff

I'm not really looking for answers to conform to, just curious how other people write. Since I'm still fairly new to this I don't think I've found my groove yet but I do think, for me at least, different stories need to be written in different ways. It wasn't too hard for me to write my first story chronologically and jump POVs within each chapter but my current WIP has so far been easier to write by following a character through the entirety of a scene before I change to another character. I may end up breaking up the scenes and stitching them together so that it reads chronologically but I don't think I could draft it that way.

Travis, your method sounds like what I'm doing now. I'll have to wait and see if this method produces a more cohesive and intricate plot than my first attempt. I am still revising the first one and I wasn't really planning on trying to get it published, it was more of a practice run.

blacbird · Sep 25, 2015

For me, chapter divisions come naturally, and can be at least slightly arbitrary. Scenes, less so. A scene, to me, is a sequence of character action/interaction with a discrete beginning and a discrete ending. Sometimes a single scene occupies a single chapter. More commonly, a chapter consists of two or three related scenes. I've never had a problem location an appropriate place to put a chapter break, and most of my chapters run to pretty standard lengths, ~2000-~3500 words.

caw

mongoose29 · Sep 25, 2015

I'm new to this whole novel thing, as I have never had the patience for more than short-story length works. As I'm currently tackling the first revision of my first draft of my first novel, I'm finding it very difficult to find a way in. Revise from the start? Revise somewhere in the middle to get some traction?

The fact that I haven't divvied things into chapters yet makes it hard to find a place to begin.

I initially wrote the story scene-by-scene, although I jumped around in the chronology. It seems I may be editing the very same way.

Laer Carroll · Sep 26, 2015

blacbird said:
A scene, to me, is a sequence of character action/interaction ~~with a discrete beginning and a discrete ending [in time and space].~~

That definition isn't just yours. It's what the dictionaries say. Here's Merriam-Webster's definition: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scene.

The time scale might be in milliseconds or millennia. The space might be an area such as a house or a playing field, or a path such as a stroll in the park or the trajectory of a space ship.

blacbird said:

Sometimes a single scene occupies a single chapter. More commonly, a chapter consists of two or three related scenes.

Click to expand...

A third possibility is to use several chapters to hold a single very long scene. Then we usually make chapter breaks when the nature of the scene changes. Perhaps a character leaves or enters the scene. Perhaps the main character enters or leaves a building or vehicle. Or they turn from escaping to attacking an enemy. Or have an epiphany. And so on.

blacbird said:

For me, chapter divisions come naturally, and can be at least slightly arbitrary. Scenes, less so.

Click to expand...

Scenes are a basic unit of stories. We don't break them arbitrarily; we do it when the scene zigs or zags in some way. Chapters are more a convenience for us, the writer. As when Blacbird collects several related scenes together. They help us order our thoughts.

Chapters are less important to readers - if we've done our job of hooking them. Then they may not even notice a chapter break except as a page turn or a chance to run to the bathroom.

So it's not a matter of scene OR chapter. BOTH are tools in our writer's toolbox. Over time we'll learn what combinations(s) works for us.

Or the story we want to tell. A fast-packed action adventure might have lots of short scenes. And we might package them one scene to one chapter. A cozy mystery might have longer scenes, and fewer chapters.

ishtar'sgate · Sep 26, 2015

shadowwalker said:
I write in scenes, but chronologically. At some point, there's enough of a change in circumstances to warrant a new chapter, so that's what happens.

I work this way too and always try to end a chapter with a mini cliffhanger so the reader wants to go on to the next chapter.

Travis Kerr · Sep 26, 2015

ishtar'sgate said:
I work this way too and always try to end a chapter with a mini cliffhanger so the reader wants to go on to the next chapter.

I generally tend to agree with this. While I'm fairly new to writing novels myself, I have read many books on the subject, and the one I suggest to most writers is a book by Sol Stien called "On Writing". In it, one of the things he mentions is the difference between the styles of writing from years ago and what is popular to today's readers. He not only suggests using cliffhangers at the end of chapters, but also suggests that, on occasion, it is not a bad idea to go to a completely different character and scene before going back to the cliffhanger, to keep the reader in suspense. In my own reading experience this does sometimes work, as long as it is done properly and you don't keep the reader waiting for too long.

Travis Kerr · Sep 26, 2015

Kallithrix said:
For me, that is what a scene break is - a natural moving on point, where the plot/story purpose of the scene has been fulfilled. Or if the scene goes on a long time, I find a place to break it up and come back to it. Entrances and exits and location changes are natural scene breaks.

For me, chapter breaks are to do with plot units. The end of one chapter introduces a plot development, and the next chapter runs with it until it is either resolved, or another development comes along and complicates it. I try to leave an unanswered story question at the end of each chapter, even if it is only 'how will so and so react to that?' - and then the next chapter might start with exactly what so and so does in reaction to the previous chapter.

As I said, I don't think this is necessarily true on a chapter level, but certainly on a scene level. A chapter can be very long, but if it is made up of many short scenes it can still be fast paced. The only thing that makes long chapters feel long is lack of scene breaks

I tend to agree with this, and tend to use slightly longer chapters with scene breaks myself instead of shorter chapters. But then, I've also been told I use an older style of writing. In a book I mention elsewhere in this thread, a book called "On Writing" by Sol Stien, he talks about the difference in preference between older and younger readers. Part of that, according to his book, is the preference for shorter chapters by younger readers. for myself, I agree with you entirely, but then I'm looking more from the perspective of an older reader.

Laer Carroll · Sep 27, 2015

I hate cliffhangers. Too many of them & I throw the book in the recycler.

Too, the issue of shorter or longer chapters is not age-specific. It's STORY specific. What does the story you want to tell need? It might be long OR short chapters. If you stick to one style you're handicapping yourself.

Writing chapters vs. writing scenes

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