Could Fiorina Win the Republican Nomination?

CrastersBabies · Sep 24, 2015

Her SuperPac decided to create the made-up abortion video she described in the last debate. Because who doesn't love a big, fake heaping dose of pathos?

LINK

Maze Runner · Sep 24, 2015

I think the GOP nomination will come down to Trump and ... somebody. And the way it looks today, that somebody could easily be Carly Fiorina. Unless Trump sinks in the polls considerably, I think he's in it for the long haul. He doesn't have to worry about his financing, and that's a unique position to be in--that's when they drop out, when the well runs dry. I'm beginning to believe that a lot of these candidates are in it only for the financing, for what's left of the 20 or 30 million they've raised after they throw in the towel. After all, it's hard for me to believe that many of these long-shots think they can actually come in. So if you raise X amount of millions of dollars what happens to what's left? That's a sincere question, because I honestly haven't looked into it. But if you run for POTUS every four years and end up putting a few extra million in your kick, that's not a bad part time job.

blacbird · Sep 24, 2015

Maze Runner said:
I'm beginning to believe that a lot of these candidates are in it only for the financing, for what's left of the 20 or 30 million they've raised after they throw in the towel. After all, it's hard for me to believe that many of these long-shots think they can actually come in. So if you raise X amount of millions of dollars what happens to what's left? That's a sincere question, because I honestly haven't looked into it. But if you run for POTUS every four years and end up putting a few extra million in your kick, that's not a bad part time job.

Doesn't work that way, at least not legally. Campaign contributions cannot be converted into ordinary personal income.

caw

JetFueledCar · Sep 24, 2015

I would love for her to get the nomination, because I seriously doubt she can win. I'd love for Trump to win the nomination for the same reason. I just don't think either of them will.

Gregg · Sep 24, 2015

Some one speculated today that Rubio and Fiorina would be the ticket - but couldn't predict who would be the Presidential nominee.
I can see Rubio winning, but don't see him picking Fiorina. Maybe Kasich to help win Ohio.

if Rubio doesn't win, he's probably everybody's pick for VP. (Except for Trump who might pick another non-politician billionaire- but I don't see Trump winning).

Introversion · Sep 25, 2015

Carly Fiorina: Compulsive Liar?

Now, Fiorina has been caught telling a lie, about the very same matter, again. This time it was on Iowa radio.

In an interview, host Simon Conway asked how Fiorina could claim that she didn't know about HP's deals with Iran, when the company named Redington Gulf, a Dubai-based company that sold HP's goods in Iran, HP's "Wholesaler of the Year."

"That was after my time. So I actually am not aware of that. I mean, apparently they were named that, but I don't know that. You know, it was after my time there. I can't speak to that," Fiorina said.

Interesting. First, Redington Gulf was named Wholesaler of the Year for HP in 2003, when Carly Fiorina was very much the CEO.

Second, this is a totally different answer than the one she delivered a week ago, to Chris Wallace.

nighttimer · Sep 25, 2015

Don said:
I could care less what he does to congress or the supremes. Actually, I think invading congress would be a good use of the troops compared to Droning brown babies and wedding parties in foreign lands, or having people's homes invaded because they smoke herbs for medicine or don't pay Danegeld, those things I care about.

That's obvious. Equally obvious is yet another didactical, dodging, diversionary derail which has neither jack nor shit to do with the CNN-created Flavor of the Week, Chainsaw Carly Fiorina.

Sorry, Carly. You’re peaking too early. Just ask President Herman Cain.

This week’s CNN poll shows Carly Fiorina, the former business executive, rocketing to the top tier of the Republican presidential race. She has 15 percent support, up from just 3 percent weeks earlier. Meantime, the previously unassailable front-runner, Donald Trump, is suddenly hemorrhaging support, falling to 24 percent from 32 percent, while Ben Carson has dropped to 14 percent from 19 percent.

This dizzying reshuffle of the Republican deck, if confirmed in other polling, can mean only one thing: GOP primary voters have returned to their preferred method of candidate selection, the flavor-of-the-week technique. Using this method, they undergo a flirtation with every possible alternative before finally holding their collective noses and settling on the most obvious, if uninspiring, consensus choice.

In 2008 they sampled Rudy Giuliani, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney before settling for John McCain. In 2012 there were no fewer than five front-runners — Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry, Cain, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum — before voters settled on Romney as their final answer. If past is prologue, the voters this time will have several more flings over the next few months before settling for somebody such as Jeb Bush who thrills nobody.

One explanation is that the Republican electorate is an awfully fickle bunch. A better explanation is that voters just aren’t paying that much attention to the race, and the constant rise and fall of front-runners is little more than a creation of the media.

A Pew Research Center poll this month found that 27 percent of the public is paying very close attention to the election — slightly more than usual, thanks to Trump and the horde of candidates, but not exactly evidence of an engaged electorate. In this low-information environment, public opinion is susceptible to huge shifts — and manipulation. Indeed, the Fiorina boomlet may be almost entirely a CNN creation.

First the network changed its own qualification rules to give Fiorina a place on the main debate stage. During the debate, moderator Jake Tapper of CNN teed up several confrontations between Fiorina and Trump that played to her advantage (inviting her to comment, for example, on Trump’s “persona” and his insult of her appearance). After the debate, CNN proclaimed Fiorina “the breakout star of the night, taking on Republican front-runner Donald Trump with finesse and capturing the crowd with polished, zinging answers.” Then came the CNN poll that showed, as CNN described it, that “Fiorina shot into second place in the Republican presidential field on the heels of another strong debate performance.”

CNN shoehorns her into debate; CNN puffs her up during debate; CNN praises her debate performance; CNN trumpets poll showing debate gained her support: In the corporate world Fiorina comes from, this is known as vertical integration.

The Fiorina rise is, most likely, a fresh-face phenomenon; she’s the flavor of the week. A month ago, 36 percent of registered Republicans hadn’t heard of her; that fell to 21 percent in the current poll, and those viewing her favorably jumped to 54 percent from 45 percent. As voters give her a serious look, her negative ratings, now just 17 percent, will inevitably rise — and the electorate will very likely move on to sample a new flavor.

Milbank is correct in his analysis that nobody benefited more from the last GOP debate than Fiorina and CNN gamed their own system to shine the spotlight on Fiorina. She particularly owes the feckless Jake Tapper a nice Xmas present.

Otherwise, leave no rookie candidate/busted out CEO behind.

Gregg said:
Some one speculated today that Rubio and Fiorina would be the ticket - but couldn't predict who would be the Presidential nominee.

I can see Rubio winning, but don't see him picking Fiorina. Maybe Kasich to help win Ohio.

if Rubio doesn't win, he's probably everybody's pick for VP. (Except for Trump who might pick another non-politician billionaire- but I don't see Trump winning).

I don't either, but I wouldn't rule out Trump tearing up his "pledge" and proclaiming a third party run because only he can make America great again.

But I think you're spot on about Marco Rubio. He's playing a long game as he sits back and watches the white-hot shooting stars (Trump, Carson, Fiorina) take their turn dazzling onlookers before they burn out due to their own amateurish awkwardness with campaigning on this level, or flounder about giving no one a compelling reason to support their candidacy (Bush, Walker, Christie). Rubio is content to just keep working, making no major waves, but making no major gaffes either. He is definitely not peaking too soon.

I could definitely see Rubio looking to a John Kasich to create a Florida/Ohio hammerlock on the Electoral College which would force the Dems to rerun the numbers to achieve 270. Rudio is young enough, change enough, conservative enough, smart enough and ambitious enough to be the candidate true to the Tea Party, true to the base and true to the party elites to get them to rally under his flag.

I don't know what other Republican all that can be said about.

Rubio could conceivably win over a considerable chunk of Latino votes, a key demographic the Republicans need to grow and expand the party's support. At the least, Rubio forces the Democrats to work overtime to keep Latinos on their side, though Rubio's flip-flop on immigration reform is going to come back to haunt him.

Introversion · Sep 25, 2015

If the facts don't fit your rhetoric, make some new facts?

MotherJones said:
During the latest GOP primary debate on September 16, Carly Fiorina described a video that shows "a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking, while someone says we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain." Many news reports have pointed out that no such video seems to exist—it's not among the heavily edited Center for Medical Progress videos released this summer, nor is it anywhere else.

On September 19, the super-PAC backing Fiorina's candidacy, Carly for America, posted a video to its YouTube page that appears to be a home-brewed version of the previously nonexistent video. The clip is called "Character of Our Nation," a quote from Fiorina's statements during the debate, when she said defunding Planned Parenthood "is about the character of our nation."*

In an email sent out yesterday, Planned Parenthood pointed out that the video appears to be a heavily edited selection of five separate audio and video clips, spliced together "to try to concoct the video that she claimed existed" during the debate. Several of the clips, Planned Parenthood said, come from the doctored Center for Medical Progress sting videos released this summer that purport to show Planned Parenthood officials selling fetal organs for profit—a criminal allegation that state after state has found to be false.

...

I look forward to the passing of Carly's 15 minutes of candidate spotlight.

CrastersBabies · Sep 25, 2015

I dunno, I have republican pals on FB who are all, "Look at me! I like Fiorina! I'm totes Women's Lib."

(And yes, they used that term "Women's Lib.")

nighttimer · Sep 25, 2015

CrastersBabies said:
I dunno, I have republican pals on FB who are all, "Look at me! I like Fiorina! I'm totes Women's Lib."

(And yes, they used that term "Women's Lib.")

Oh, those wacky wimmen libbers! Probably off to burn their bras or something. :mob

I do so love Republican women libbers like Carly Fiorina who take every possible stance she can against the rights of women.

Maze Runner · Sep 25, 2015

blacbird said:
Doesn't work that way, at least not legally. Campaign contributions cannot be converted into ordinary personal income.

caw

I wonder what happens if there's money left in the coffer when they decide to terminate their candidacy. They give it back?

JetFueledCar said:
I would love for her to get the nomination, because I seriously doubt she can win. I'd love for Trump to win the nomination for the same reason. I just don't think either of them will.

Who's your bet? Jeb?

darkprincealain · Sep 25, 2015

I think she has just decided at some point that she is entitled to her own facts. Neither of these lies is all that hard to fact check. If she wants to go there that's fine, but I sure hope journalists start fact checking just everything she says, because so far, that ginned up video is giving me the willies. Imagine what else is up her sleeve if she's that divorced from the truth.

Introversion said:
Carly Fiorina: Compulsive Liar?

Introversion said:
If the facts don't fit your rhetoric, make some new facts?

I look forward to the passing of Carly's 15 minutes of candidate spotlight.

blacbird · Sep 25, 2015

What Gregg and Nighttimer said. A Rubio-Kasich ticket would have a lot of simple practicality going for it. Two big swing states represented. It's hard to see a Democrat winning the race without getting at least one of those states.

Rubio will attract some Hispanic votes, but it won't be overwhelming, given his Cuban heritage and stance on immigration. But he's done well electorally in Florida. And so far he's avoided a face-plant in the nomination campaign, something that can't be said of Perry, Walker or Bush. I can see eroding Bush support slipping over to Rubio without much angst.

caw

nighttimer · Sep 27, 2015

It's telling how the handful of :e2cheer:

Carly Cheerleaders :e2cheer:

in this thread haven't even attempted to defend her rank dishonesty over the manufactured video.

Apparently, the Anti-Hillary's lying-ass ways don't deviate all that much from Hillary Clinton's, but to the Carly Cheerleaders mendacity only matters when its by the other team.

Don · Sep 27, 2015

All politicians lie. All politicians get pilloried for their lies by their opponent's partisans, and forgiven for their lies by their partisans. That's how politics works. The odds of an honest president being elected are less than the odds of winning the lottery twice in a row.

When we lie to the government, it's a felony. When the government lies to us, it's politics as usual.

The only honest politician running for president that I'm aware of is Gil Fulbright.

nighttimer · Sep 27, 2015

Don said:
All politicians lie. All politicians get pilloried for their lies by their opponent's partisans, and forgiven for their lies by their partisans. That's how politics works. The odds of an honest president being elected are less than the odds of winning the lottery twice in a row.

When we lie to the government, it's a felony. When the government lies to us, it's politics as usual.

All politicians lie. All presidents lie. The government lies. Santa Claus lies. I've heard this same old tired song and dance. Damn, can we get a remix?

What about Carly Fiorina's lies? Oh, wait. Here's a change-up.

Don said:
Compared to the rest of the Republican clown car, she's a genius. If she were a liberal, the spin on her tenure at HP would be entirely different. She was inexperienced and got caught in the dot-com bubble, a combination that killed the careers of a whole bunch of people who have since been rehabilitated. That said, she has a better understanding of business and economics than anybody running for the red or blue team. Good360 is one of the most efficient charities in the US, and it's model is one of the most sensible out there.

She's socially a neanderthal, but that seems to be a requirement for Rep candidates. She does support drug decriminalization and believes climate change is real and caused by human activity, which makes her better on the social scale than most of the rest of the pack. OTOH, she's almost as Hawkish as Hillary when it comes to foreign affairs and roughly as bad as Bernie concerning immigration, which does not impress me.

If we've got to have a supreme ruler, she'd probably be less terrible than the rest of the combatants for the One Ring.

Chainsaw Carly will be pleased to have secured the Don Endorsement. It's good to know a job-killing scrub of a CEO who got fired and cashed out with millions has won some Libertarian love. Too bad she can't get the Don Defense of her bald-faced lying.

Don said:
The only honest politician running for president that I'm aware of is Gil Fulbright.

Here's something else "as usual." Trying to pimp a dead thread nobody paid any attention to. How usual is that? :rolleyes

Don · Sep 28, 2015

nighttimer said:
All politicians lie. All presidents lie. The government lies. Santa Claus lies. I've heard this same old tired song and dance. Damn, can we get a remix?

What about Carly Fiorina's lies? Oh, wait. Here's a change-up.

Chainsaw Carly will be pleased to have secured the Don Endorsement. It's good to know a job-killing scrub of a CEO who got fired and cashed out with millions has won some Libertarian love. Too bad she can't get the Don Defense of her bald-faced lying.

Here's something else "as usual." Trying to pimp a dead thread nobody paid any attention to. How usual is that?

Do you disagree with my statement that all politicians lie? Or perhaps it's the statement about partisanship. Did I misstate something in what you laughingly referred to as an "endorsement" of one of the candidates for the One Ring, which you already "debated" in an earlier post?

deadhorse) Are you unhappy that I don't approve of Fiorina lying about Planned Parenthood?

Is there a debate point in there somewhere with all the ad hominem and invective? 'cause I don't get it. :Shrug:

Oh, and I'm not a member of the Libertarian party, and no longer even self-identify as libertarian. So anything I say should hardly be considered an endorsement by either big or little L libertarians.

:e2yawn:

nighttimer · Sep 28, 2015

Don said:
Do you disagree with my statement that all politicians lie?

I totally disagree with the gross overstatement. Many politicians do lie, but then many people want to be lied to hence the popularity of a pompous know-nothing like Trump. Those that wish to be manipulated will never lack for manipulators.

However, politicians are people and while I recognize the fact lying is something many politicians are skilled at, the broad-brush of "all politicians lie" is merely all-encompassing in its cynicism.

For the purposes of this debate the disingenuous waving away of Fiorina's purposeful and repeated lying doesn't square with the sanctimonious denunciation. Fiorina has been caught as a liar-liar-pants on fire on the Left by The Nation, on the Right by Fox News and everywhere else in between. This fucking video she is speaking of does not fucking exist except in the mendacious mind of Carly Fiorina.

Don said:
Or perhaps it's the statement about partisanship. Did I misstate something in what you laughingly referred to as an "endorsement" of one of the candidates for the One Ring, which you already "debated" in an earlier post?

If this isn't an endorsement of Carly Fiorina...

Don said:
Compared to the rest of the Republican clown car, she's a genius. If she were a liberal, the spin on her tenure at HP would be entirely different…she has a better understanding of business and economics than anybody running for the red or blue team…She does support drug decriminalization and believes climate change is real and caused by human activity, which makes her better on the social scale than most of the rest of the pack.. If we've got to have a supreme ruler, she'd probably be less terrible than the rest of the combatants…

...it'll do until a more formal endorsement comes along.

Don said:
Are you unhappy that I don't approve of Fiorina lying about Planned Parenthood?

My happiness or unhappiness is in no way pertinent to this discussion. What is pertinent is your saying you disapprove of Fiorina lying about the Planned Parenthood video she says she and apparently no one else has seen.

When and where exactly did you disapprove of Fiorina's lying?

c.e.lawson · Sep 28, 2015

It seems like you're itching for a good argument, nighttimer. I'm going to jump into the pool and offer some comments here, but I'm warning you I have to go to work in a bit so won't be around for back and forth, nor do I have the energy for much of a discussion on this topic.

So I will say this -- Carly Fiorina described a portion of the video, as well as the essence of a portion of the video, as well as things that actually happen at Planned Parenthood. The link I'm providing shows the portion of the video she was referencing, and much of it happens around the 5-7 minute mark. If you watch that video and you read again what Fiorina says, it is not the blatant lie you are saying it is. And the fact that so many in the media and the left and the pro-abortion side of the issue are more concerned about a few words Fiorina said (which might not be technically accurate to the highest degree but do NOT obfuscate the truth), than the actual subject matter of which she is speaking, then yes that says A LOT about the character of our country.

What's more important here - that Fiorina wasn't technically completely accurate about a video? Or that late term abortions are occurring in which callous measures are taken and alterations of the procedure are done to keep the fetus intact in order to harvest its organs to sell? Please note that the latter is against federal law.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/18...ood-videos-carly-fiorina-or-the-factcheckers/

nighttimer · Sep 28, 2015

c.e.lawson said:
It seems like you're itching for a good argument, nighttimer. I'm going to jump into the pool and offer some comments here, but I'm warning you I have to go to work in a bit so won't be around for back and forth, nor do I have the energy for much of a discussion on this topic.

Pity that, because I don't believe there's any need to expend much energy on Fiorina's deliberate deception. Fiorina lied and caught telling a lie, she continues to lie even more.

That's a tap dance around the truth Richard Nixon would be proud of.

c.e.lawson said:
So I will say this -- Carly Fiorina described a portion of the video, as well as the essence of a portion of the video, as well as things that actually happen at Planned Parenthood. The link I'm providing shows the portion of the video she was referencing, and much of it happens around the 5-7 minute mark. If you watch that video and you read again what Fiorina says, it is not the blatant lie you are saying it is. And the fact that so many in the media and the left and the pro-abortion side of the issue are more concerned about a few words Fiorina said (which might not be technically accurate to the highest degree but do NOT obfuscate the truth), than the actual subject matter of which she is speaking, then yes that says A LOT about the character of our country.

I agree. It does say A LOT about the character of our country when a presidential candidate can go on live television and tell a huge, stinking and proven lie her supporters will shrug it off as simply not being "technically accurate to the highest degree."

That's a tap dance around the truth Bill Clinton would be proud of.

c.e.lawson said:
What's more important here - that Fiorina wasn't technically completely accurate about a video? Or that late term abortions are occurring in which callous measures are taken and alterations of the procedure are done to keep the fetus intact in order to harvest its organs to sell? Please note that the latter is against federal law.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/18...ood-videos-carly-fiorina-or-the-factcheckers/

What's most important here for the purposes of this thread, and not a derail about late-term abortions, is did Carly Fiorina lie to the American people when she said, Watch a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking while someone says, ‘We have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.’

For the purposes of this debate the answer is clear. Carly Fiorina told a lie and it has been proven by multiple sources to be a lie.

Fiorina can bash the media, blame the Left and pro-choicers, play the victim and say black is white and up is down. Telling a lie and then repeating it once it's been proven to be a lie will never make it the truth.

rugcat · Sep 28, 2015

When someone deliberately uses videos, regardless of their content, that have nothing to do with Planned Parenthood, with the express purpose of giving the impression that those videos are of Planned Parenthood, it is a lie.

When you set out to intentionally deceive your audience, no matter how you parse your words to prove that technically you aren't lying, it's still a lie.

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

Technically true; it was just a blowjob. Also a lie.

The Federalist has an interesting take – the question is, do you wish to believe every major news outlet in the country, or a single religiously-based right wing site with an antiabortion agenda and who is anti-Planned Parenthood in general? Their current site has a couple of illuminating articles from women about how poorly they were treated by Planned Parenthood, and how cutting Planned Parenthood funds won't matter anyway.

An interesting sidelight – the cofounder of the Federalist is Ben Domenich, who has lost previous jobs due to admitted plagiarism, as well as receiving undisclosed payments from a conservative pundit for an opinion article praising the Malaysian government.

An ad hominem attack? Perhaps, but when the founder of a magazine is an admitted plagiarist and unethical journalist, and the magazine publishes an article whose conclusions run counter to what everyone else has concluded, it should be taken with more than a grain of salt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Domenech

c.e.lawson · Sep 28, 2015

What are you referring to that has "nothing to do with Planned Parenthood?" The Planned Parenthood employees are describing in sad detail what Fiorina is objecting to. This is not fiction that Fiorina made up. Yes, there's a short video of a fetus lying in a metal dish, that is still moving. And it is apparently not from PP. But the "procurement technician" in the video describes just such a thing occurring in a Planned Parenthood clinic. So I take objection to you saying "nothing to do with Planned Parenthood". It has MUCH to do with Planned Parenthood. And that's the crux of the true problem.

nighttimer · Sep 28, 2015

c.e.lawson said:
What are you referring to that has "nothing to do with Planned Parenthood?" The Planned Parenthood employees are describing in sad detail what Fiorina is objecting to. This is not fiction that Fiorina made up. Yes, there's a short video of a fetus lying in a metal dish, that is still moving. And it is apparently not from PP. But the "procurement technician" in the video describes just such a thing occurring in a Planned Parenthood clinic. So I take objection to you saying "nothing to do with Planned Parenthood". It has MUCH to do with Planned Parenthood. And that's the crux of the true problem.

The "true problem" as relates to this debate and this debate only is did Carly Fiorina lie to the American people in the second Republican debate about the Planned Parenthood videos?

Yes, she did.

At Wednesday's debate, Carly Fiorina received thunderous applause for challenging Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to watch a specific scene from the Planned Parenthood sting tapes. The scene, she said, showed "a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking while someone says we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain."

But when asked for a citation, her campaign replied with a video that isn't from the Planned Parenthood sting tapes at all — and that still doesn't show what Fiorina said it did.

Over email, campaign spokeswoman Sarah Isgur Flores pointed to a one-minute clip from a YouTube account called "Save Babies." That's different from the Center for Medical Progress, the group behind the sting videos. At the time, the video had accrued just over 800 views.

The "Save Babies" video includes clips of Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi talking about women's health. It includes some footage from the Planned Parenthood sting videos where technicians identify fetal body parts in petri dishes. There is additional stock footage of full fetuses — again, not shot in Planned Parenthood clinics, and also not used in the original Human Capital videos. There is audio from a former StemExpress employee (a company Planned Parenthood contracted with to procure fetal tissue) describing her own experience with another technician: "She gave me the scissors and told me to cut down the middle of the face."

It ends with the words "This is Planned Parenthood" over a late-stage fetus who, according to the identifying information next to it, was "killed by saline abortion" at "University of Wisconsin Hospital in the 1980s."

What the video does not show is the scene Fiorina described. While there is discussion from the former StemExpress employer of procuring fetal brain tissue — a practice Planned Parenthood openly admits happens in its clinics — there is no discussion of keeping a fetus alive for that purpose. There are videos of fetuses moving and kicking, but those were not shot at a Planned Parenthood clinic.

But what about the claims made by The Federalist?

I sent Fiorina's spokeswoman a second email outlining my questions, and asking her again to point me to the video that Fiorina meant to reference in her remarks. She replied with a link to the Federalist's Mollie Hemingway's recent piece, "Watch the video that Planned Parenthood and its media allies deny exists."

Most of Hemingway's piece focuses on Episode 3 of Human Capital, a mini-documentary series from the anti-abortion group Center for Medical Progress, which conducted the Planned Parenthood sting. The Human Capital series includes footage of fetuses from a separate source (The Center for Bioethical Reform) and an interview with a former employee of StemExpress, a company that procures human tissue for researchers.

"It does, in fact, show a fully formed fetus, heart beating and legs kicking," Hemingway writes. "And it shows this while Holly O’Donnell, a former organ harvester who worked for StemExpress at a Planned Parenthood affiliate, graphically discuss the harvesting of a brain from a baby whose heart was beating."

Hemingway is right; these things are in the Human Capital video. But they still are not the scene that Fiorina describes. There's no footage of the moment O'Donnell describes, nor is there proof offered that it occurred — there's no moment to "watch," as Fiorina urged debate viewers.

Moreover, the footage of the fetus in that video isn't from the Planned Parenthood videos. One image is of a stillborn baby, initially included in the video without the mother's permission. Other footage appears to come from a collection of stock footage of fetuses. "The stock footage was added to the video to dramatize its content," fact-checking website Politifact concluded. "We don’t know the circumstances behind this video: where it came from, under what conditions it was obtained, or even if this fetus was actually aborted (as opposed to a premature birth or miscarriage)."

The most generous reading of Fiorina's remarks are that she mistook what she saw in the videos. It is possible to watch the Human Capital video and think the footage of fetuses was shot in a clinic; this is, after all, a documentary about Planned Parenthood. And when she discussed "someone saying we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain," she may have mistook something the former StemExpress technician says in the same video, where she describes the fetus as being "intact."

But this isn't the defense that Fiorina has offered. "Rest assured, I have seen the images I talked about last night," she told Good Morning America Thursday morning. If these images Fiorina says she's seen do exist, she still has not shared them.

That's an interesting point. If Fiorina's bounce to second place in the Republican presidential polls is based on the one-two punch of jabbing Donald Trump and punching out Planned Parenthood, why isn't she sharing these videos to vault into first place?

Could it be because she can't? :e2shrug:

RichardGarfinkle · Sep 28, 2015

c.e.lawson said:
What are you referring to that has "nothing to do with Planned Parenthood?" The Planned Parenthood employees are describing in sad detail what Fiorina is objecting to. This is not fiction that Fiorina made up. Yes, there's a short video of a fetus lying in a metal dish, that is still moving. And it is apparently not from PP. But the "procurement technician" in the video describes just such a thing occurring in a Planned Parenthood clinic. So I take objection to you saying "nothing to do with Planned Parenthood". It has MUCH to do with Planned Parenthood. And that's the crux of the true problem.

So a person who does not work for Planned Parenthood claims that something happened in Planned Parenthood, and that means it did? And because this person made the claim on a video, that is the same thing as seeing a video of Planned Parenthood people doing this thing?

None of that is remotely dispositive of actions taken in Planned Parenthood.

nighttimer · Sep 29, 2015

c.e.lawson said:
It seems like you're itching for a good argument, nighttimer.

Point of clarification: I'm not itching for a good argument, c.e.lawson as I don't believe there's anything to argue about. Fiorina is either badly mistaken in what she thought she saw in the Planned Parenthood sting videos or she's deliberately lying about it. I opt for the second explanation.

Fiorina boasts how not being a career politician has inoculated her from the sickness of Washington insiders, but as a former candidate for the Senate and now for the presidency, she's sure trying hard to catch the fever. She's already shown her capability to be as misleading, mendacious, and deceitful as any Congresscritter.

Mostly though, I've had it up to here with vain egotists like Fiorina and Trump whose spectacular successes are matched and often exceeded by their equally spectacular failures and arrogantly believing this makes them presidential timber.

A decade ago the word was already out on what a dud Fiorina was. She solidified her status as one of the worst CEO's in America long before her delusional fantasy she could fail upward to become America's next president.

Can Fiorina trump competition for 'worst tech CEO' title?

Welcome to American Ouster — where former technology CEOs who were booted by their boards compete to see who did the most damage to their companies.

Now, that would be a heck of a reality series. Like Donald Trump's The Apprentice, only upside down and backward.

As you might expect, the idea for such a show is sparked by the emergence of a hot new contestant: Carly Fiorina, who was tossed out by Hewlett-Packard's board last week. During her reign of six years, she remade H-P about as successfully as William Shatner remade Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. (He really recorded that song!)

Fiorina was bad. Everyone seems to agree on this now, even though until about two months ago the conventional wisdom was that she was very good. But opinions can change fast. We once adored Michael Jackson.

•Fiorina. H-P's CEO from 1999 to 2005, she forced a merger with Compaq, eviscerated H-P's culture and tried to make H-P a computing giant. Instead, H-P is an IBM also-ran that makes most of its money on printer cartridges.

The profs are all over the map about Fiorina. Kothari praises her for conviction in pursuing her strategy. On the other end, Sonnenfeld labels her "the worst because of her ruthless attack on the essence of this great company," noting that "she destroyed half the wealth of her investors and yet still earned almost $100 million in total payments for this destructive reign of terror."

Firing 30,000 people is not a sign of success. Making an unwise acquisition over the objections of the board which ends up decreasing the value of the company's stock is not a sign of success. Being fired by that same board and never hired again as a CEO is not a sign of success.

Yet Fiorina has nimbly turned what should disqualify her from ever holding elected office into the raison d'être of her candidacy. Her ability to make lemonade without lemons is admirable, but after the way she flamed out before she cashed out in the business sector it's clear to me Fiorina has no business in the public sector.

I'd also suggest Fiorina back up off the Botox before her face permanently freezes in place. :Wha:

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