So, can I ask some questions?

Guys, I appreciate the hard questions being asked, but can we please not lump all Christians together? There are plenty of queer Christians, myself included, and plenty of queer-friendly churches. Of course we should point out the bad, but smearing all Christians with the queerphobic brush is going to get a lot of queer and queer-friendly people tarred.

Thanks.

Roger J Carlson said:

When Christians see non-hetero people as people, just as good as they are and just as flawed as they are, then trust is possible. Talking about "churches" and the "LGBTQ community" obsures the fact that neither group is monolithic. Change can happen ... perhaps can ONLY happen ... one person at a time.

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Focusing on more evangelical sects of Christianity since that's what this thread is about. I would ask you to ask yourself how serious your church is about this just like Richard suggested. Because in order to do this sucessfully they have to be at least accepting enough to stop contradicting themselves by saying every other human variation is part of God's plan except being LGBT, because that is what that belief is. A contradiction which presumes to know the will of God.

My opinion only:

Let the people who want to be accepted by the church find their place when they want to, if they want to. To me, this is very cult like. Instead of making efforts to 'recruit' people to the church, accept them with open arms if and when they decide it is right for them.

Just as it is okay that we all have differences, it is equally okay that some people just don't want to go to church.

Acceptance and forgiveness can be achieved without getting the people to be a part of your church or place of worship.

One of the things I do not like about religion is the efforts to make me believe in it. Acceptance starts with understanding that if I don't want to worship the way you do, that's truly okay.

MacAllister said:

One of the really cool things here, after the Supreme Court marriage equality decision, was driving down the street and seeing SO MANY churches with celebratory signs and flying rainbow flags.

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Yup! So many churches, temples, and even some mosques have embraced the idea that LGBT people are an intentional creation of God and not some sort of human failing or mistake. It's heartwarming.

My opinion only, as well:

A huge factor is the portion where many of the devout Christians are on a crusade to make the entire world a Christian world. Because, as AW Admin, has pointed out, many Christians feel that they turn others into Christianity, giving them more "Heaven points." If it's not for the points, it's for the "I'm saving you," because others must have been living such a terrible life before. Overall, I feel the whole manifest destiny in Christianity has given them an ownership on other people. I feel this is why we have the issue that we do. Of course, this isn't all of Christianity. I'd venture to say most people, when they see someone who sinned in their eyes, they think to themselves, "They're doing something that I wouldn't do, but it's not my place to stop them." Honestly, I don't even have problems who see two men holding hands or kissing and thinking to themselves, "This is a sin, but it's God's place to judge, not mine," and continue about their lives.

I wish there were accepting churches near where I live...I live in a pretty polarizing state, and it's very conservative near where I live. I mean, I was told I was sinning if I ever played video games because that was wasted time that I could have used for praying instead, lol. And texting was evil, Harry Potter is the Devil, anything fantasy or magic is super evil and tempting, and stuff like that.

JetFueledCar said:

Guys, I appreciate the hard questions being asked, but can we please not lump all Christians together? There are plenty of queer Christians, myself included, and plenty of queer-friendly churches. Of course we should point out the bad, but smearing all Christians with the queerphobic brush is going to get a lot of queer and queer-friendly people tarred.

Thanks.

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Quoted for truth. It's always amusing to me when queer people tell me I can't exist and far-right Christian people tell me I can't exist, and both for the same reasons. Because it is impossible for many people to accept that a pansexual transwoman can also be Christian. LGBTQ Christians do exist, those aspects are part of who we are and don't have to be mutually exclusive. I do tend to be harder on evangelicals, because it is they who present me with the most vehement opposition. Maybe that's unfair, but every time I've tried to have a theological debate with an evangelical, all I get is self-righteous indignation and raw hatred. I do understand that not all Christian Conservatives are this way, and I'm not sure why evangelicals are so obtuse. I grew up in evangelical churches, and my adolescence was a dark period of my life where I hated myself because of things that I believed to be true and yet could not change. This wasn't the only reason I eventually left the Church (capitalized because I walked away from the entire organized entity of what most churches, at least in my area, had become), but it was one of many deciding factors. Still, I haven't given up trying to enlighten evangelicals, I have not dismissed them despite our repeated ideological clashes. Because I see opportunities, no matter how slim, to change a heart from hatred to love, and that is a cause worth fighting for.

It's a personal experience thing. I personally have never met a Christian in real offline life that didn't think of LGBTQ people as sinners...

The fact that the Bible supposedly has anti-gay stuff makes me feel that this religion is incompatible with my true identity. Why would I want to read that kind of book?

bunny-gypsy said:

It's a personal experience thing. I personally have never met a Christian in real offline life that didn't think of LGBTQ people as sinners...

The fact that the Bible supposedly has anti-gay stuff makes me feel that this religion is incompatible with my true identity. Why would I want to read that kind of book?

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The Bible also tells wives to be subordinate to their husbands and that remarriage after divorce is adultery, and even legitimizes slavery, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a priest in the pulpit preaching that.

Christianity can, has, and will again change. It changes slowly and bit by bit--inertia, after all, is proportionate to mass, and Christianity is both very big and very compartmentalized (even if the RCC changes, Methodists won't, and vice versa). One day, churches won't be pointing to the anti-gay passages any more than they do the ones that legitimize slavery.

And if you do want to give the Bible a try, you can pick and choose which books to read. I recommend starting with the gospels. Jesus never said jack about queer people being sinners.

Come up to Ohio sometime, I'll take you to the Dignity church nearby. It's a semi-Catholic space designed to be open and welcoming of everyone, especially LGBTQ people.

^Those anti-woman passages and slavery stuff bothered me, too. I tried reading a few Bible translations (for a class in college), including a supposedly "woman-friendly" one. Blech. All it taught me was that women were to always be submissive to their husbands, and that they could be totally screwed if they dare not do anything that the men and God say they must always do.

I did like parts of the New Testament. Jesus was pretty cool and seemed like a nice guy.

JetFueledCar said:

The Bible also tells wives to be subordinate to their husbands and that remarriage after divorce is adultery, and even legitimizes slavery, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a priest in the pulpit preaching that.

Christianity can, has, and will again change. It changes slowly and bit by bit--inertia, after all, is proportionate to mass, and Christianity is both very big and very compartmentalized (even if the RCC changes, Methodists won't, and vice versa). One day, churches won't be pointing to the anti-gay passages any more than they do the ones that legitimize slavery.

And if you do want to give the Bible a try, you can pick and choose which books to read. I recommend starting with the gospels. Jesus never said jack about queer people being sinners.

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Ah, Thanks. This makes me feel hopeful.

And, yes, I will check out the gospels. Are those in the New Testament?

bunny-gypsy said:

^Those anti-woman passages and slavery stuff bothered me, too. I tried reading a few Bible translations (for a class in college), including a supposedly "woman-friendly" one. Blech. All it taught me was that women were to always be submissive to their husbands, and that they could be totally screwed if they dare not do anything that the men and God say they must always do.

I did like parts of the New Testament. Jesus was pretty cool and seemed like a nice guy.

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The point I was trying to make is that they're not preached anymore, and fifty years from now the anti-gay passages won't be either. We'll be blissfully pretending they don't exist, just like we do with half of Leviticus. If they are in the standard year for Catholics in fifty years, they'll be in brackets to be edited out if the priest decides, and they will decide to (and for the record, I only go to Sunday mass and so don't hear the anti-gay passages... ever? I think ever, but I haven't been back for a full cycle so I'll reserve judgment on that. Hardly ever at most).

Jesus was very cool.

Weren't there supposed to be questions? Were they asked already?? Did I miss it??? Wuar????

buzhidao said:

Weren't there supposed to be questions? Were they asked already?? Did I miss it??? Wuar????

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Late to the party, man. You missed, like, everything.

There was, like, hot naked angels and stuff.

kuwisdelu said:

Yes, that's one reason why I would've stopped reading.

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For me, also, is the inherent idea that the unchurched are somehow people who must be brought into the fold. I don't know how much of this is simply because Christianity is, at its core, an evangelical religion, and that the "business" mentality that's become so widespread has percolated into religious life too (that an organization must be constantly growing and increasing your customer base, or you will die).

Of course, there may be people out there who are Christian and hungry to connect with a spiritual community that loves and accepts them for who they are and does not read the scriptures in such a way that they believe it's morally wrong for a woman to love a woman romantically and want to live and possibly raise a family together, or for a man to love a man romantically and want to live and possibly raise a family together.

JetFueledCar said:

The Bible also tells wives to be subordinate to their husbands and that remarriage after divorce is adultery, and even legitimizes slavery, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a priest in the pulpit preaching that.

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Actually, there are Churches that do the first. One of my Sisters in Law got married in a church where the pastor went on at length about how the man was the head of the family and his wife should submit unto him. There was some eye-rolling going on in the bride's side of the church, because anyone who knows this woman knows she's not, erm, submissive. Not sure why they chose this Church to get married in, except the groom's mother might have had a say (the bride's side of the family isn't at all religious).

And it's certainly not the only wedding I've been to where the pastor preached about the male and female roles in a relationship either (hint, the man always seems to be cast as the "leader" in these sermons, and the wife as "helpmeet").

As an atheist, I feel kind of lost in this discussion.

Christians believe going to church is good. They believe church helps people. Don't they? So why wouldn't they try to spread their beliefs? Why wouldn't they want to bring others into the church?

When you believe in something... when you think it's good for people... when you want society to improve... you try to spread your beliefs. Everyone does that. I do that, though obviously my beliefs are not religious. So why is it rude to want to bring people into the church?

Like, I get why it's annoying for non-Christians. I'm am atheist who grew up in the Bible Belt. But I don't see how it's rude or wrong. If I were in that situation, I'd do the exact same thing.

Not trying to start a fight. I just don't understand.

Roger, I get the feeling you've had a pretty big epiphany in your life and I don't want to discourage you from exploring and celebrating it. At the same time, do you think maybe you're moving a little quickly?

I don't want to be a post-detective and trace your recent activity, but it's my impression, without going through that process, that you've "come out" as a gay ally in the last month or so? Does that sound right? Like, your ideas were evolving before that, of course, but it's been quite recent that you've been ready to proclaim yourself?

If so, in the nicest possible way - shhhhhh. Take some time. Listen for a while. Probably for a long while. Then start by talking to other members of your church and making sure they're on the same page you are - probably some of them are ahead of you, and probably some of them are behind you. It's not fair to your prospective LGBT+ recruits to drag them into your reform movement before you can be sure you can offer them a safe place.

You know that "born again" stereotype where the newly religious person gets super-fervent and active and enthusiastic and one-sided and judgemental and generally just annoying? Don't be that person, reborn in a different direction.

I think there's something inherently arrogant about evangelicalism - the idea that you've got the answers, and it's your job to share them. Really, of course, you're just another human, muddling along, doing the best you can. In your other post you mentioned the hurt done to gay people by all Christians, everywhere, and that stood out to me because - no. Not all Christians have been hateful to gay people. Many Christians are gay, and many gays are Christian. The hurt that's been done has been done by a subgroup of Christianity, and it's a subgroup that you belong to. I don't see much justification for an outreach program between your group and gay people, not for a good long time.

This whole post, of course, is coming from a straight, cis woman. So I'm not speaking for LGBT+ people, and I don't think you should be speaking for them either. I'm just suggesting what someone who's not part of the community can do to be supportive without going too far.

Viridian said:

As an atheist, I feel kind of lost in this discussion.

Christians believe going to church is good. They believe church helps people. Don't they? So why wouldn't they try to spread their beliefs? Why wouldn't they want to bring others into the church?

When you believe in something... when you think it's good for people... when you want society to improve... you try to spread your beliefs. Everyone does that. I do that, though obviously my beliefs are not religious. So why is it rude to want to bring people into the church?

Like, I get why it's annoying for non-Christians. I'm am atheist who grew up in the Bible Belt. But I don't see how it's rude or wrong. If I were in that situation, I'd do the exact same thing.

Not trying to start a fight. I just don't understand.

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I kind of think this, too. It's like when you don't want your culture or heritage to die out in future generations, so you try to preserve it.

I don't think trying to spread one's religion or trying to convert is (purposely) rude, either. I think it becomes rude when a person becomes overly persistent, or use very inappropriate methods, etc.

I think there are some people out there with good intentions, but there are many who may become overzealous in their approaches.

It depends on the context, the overall approach, and the personalites and cultural backgrounds of those involved. Different cultures may have different outlooks on what is considered rude, etc, for example.

Roxxsmom said:

Actually, there are Churches that do the first. One of my Sisters in Law got married in a church where the pastor went on at length about how the man was the head of the family and his wife should submit unto him. There was some eye-rolling going on in the bride's side of the church, because anyone who knows this woman knows she's not, erm, submissive. Not sure why they chose this Church to get married in, except the groom's mother might have had a say (the bride's side of the family isn't at all religious).

And it's certainly not the only wedding I've been to where the pastor preached about the male and female roles in a relationship either (hint, the man always seems to be cast as the "leader" in these sermons, and the wife as "helpmeet").

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Originally I had said "in my experience" there. Should've left it in. Yes, there are churches that still view those parts of Paul as important. And the Catholic church will require you to get an annulment before you remarry (although it still doesn't come up in Sunday mass at all). Once I added the slavery I forgot that the rest isn't universal. In my defense, I've been staring at a computer screen all day and my eyes and head are foggy. Sorry about that.

bunny-gypsy said:

I did like parts of the New Testament. Jesus was pretty cool and seemed like a nice guy.

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That Paul guy, on the other hand...

Viridian said:

As an atheist, I feel kind of lost in this discussion.

Christians believe going to church is good. They believe church helps people. Don't they? So why wouldn't they try to spread their beliefs? Why wouldn't they want to bring others into the church?

When you believe in something... when you think it's good for people... when you want society to improve... you try to spread your beliefs. Everyone does that. I do that, though obviously my beliefs are not religious. So why is it rude to want to bring people into the church?

Like, I get why it's annoying for non-Christians. I'm am atheist who grew up in the Bible Belt. But I don't see how it's rude or wrong. If I were in that situation, I'd do the exact same thing.

Not trying to start a fight. I just don't understand.

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Well, I come from a non-evangelical, non-Western religion. Our religion is for us. Your religion (or lack thereof) is for you. Why should it be any other way?

When Christians came and tried to convert us, it was a very strange thing to us indeed.

What was strange to them is that when they succeeded (sometimes), they found that believing in Christianity didn't stop us from ALSO believing our own religion. There are many Zunis who are also Christian.