The Dastardly Dungeon of Deliciously Devious Drinks

I *wish* I could vomit first drafts...


It seems for the moment that I've fixed the video and sound issues the laptop was having. A driver needed updating, not that it could tell me that. *glare* Now I finally feel like everything is cleared from my head for words to get out.

I pretty much vomit them. They're crap when they come out, of course. Weak motivations, inconsistent characters, plot holes the size of Trump's lies. But eventually it gets whittled down in editing. Of course, somehow my 'whittling' ends up adding about 5-10% to my word count. Go figure.

Just wrote 2100 words for the day. Might do more later. To make up for the 175 words yesterday! The story is beginning to 'run' in my head. It's like a movie or TV show, and I just translate it into novel form. Often I can't type fast enough to get it all down, and I type about 60wpm. The Zone!

E.F.B. said:

I *wish* I could vomit first drafts...

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I did this for NaNo, but found the word count rather meaningless for me if it's going to take months to edit afterward. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter how you do it. You can write 1,000 words a day for a month or 30,000 words in one day and spend the next 29 days editing. The only thing that matters is how much time and effort you put in--and there isn't a short cut for that.

I've always thought of rewriting as just part of writing. How could it not be? Nobody gets it right on the first try.
That said, I freaking love rewriting. The characters are revealed, the outline is complete, and the pressure is off, as far as I'm concerned. Anything you can do better is just icing on the cake!

greendragon said:

I pretty much vomit them. They're crap when they come out, of course. Weak motivations, inconsistent characters, plot holes the size of Trump's lies. But eventually it gets whittled down in editing. Of course, somehow my 'whittling' ends up adding about 5-10% to my word count. Go figure.

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I think of it as shitting out a draft--it's more processed than vomit. With novels, I outline fairly well, so some of it turns out pretty good on first draft. Then some stuff will have to be rewritten entirely.

griffins said:

That said, I freaking love rewriting. The characters are revealed, the outline is complete, and the pressure is off, as far as I'm concerned. Anything you can do better is just icing on the cake!

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Yeah, sometimes going through the first draft helps solidify the story and make it a lot clearer how things be. Especially characters. I do character sketches and plan for how someone is going to be, but nothing reveals them so well as actually writing them.

I plan well also, so my first drafts aren't quite as shitty vomit as I say... at least, that's my opinion until I start editing. Then it is EXACTLY as shitty vomit as I feared

But yes, I've had characters absolutely tell me that is NOT how they are, thank you very much. My current character, Maelan, is fighting me. I wanted him lawful good, but he's steering more towards lawful neutral. His mischievous side keeps showing. Helped by his best friend, Eogan of course.

I'd like to get back to being able to vomit up first draft material. I'm so close to the climax but I followed a stray plot bunny that, while it took me to interesting places, led me through a hole into which I cn get my head but not the rest for me so that I am well and trurly blocked. I have an idea how to wiggle out of it and get back but bridging the two has mostly resulted in several attempts at staring at the screen and maybe squeezing one or two sentences out before giving up or getting distracted.

On top of that, i started trawling through worldbuilding and found some additional depth to the backstory of an important background faction. I'm unsure how much backtracking that will now require or how much will actually fit in with the main action, especially given I'm working in mostly single PoV.

...maybe that's my problem *eyes lightbulb*.

greendragon said:

I plan well also, so my first drafts aren't quite as shitty vomit as I say... at least, that's my opinion until I start editing. Then it is EXACTLY as shitty vomit as I feared

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It's been long enough since I've written a novel first draft that I'm afraid I won't be able to do it again. But then I think that every time I'm planning a novel draft.

mindstream, I think I hit a block at least once in every draft. They're a little terrifying--oh my god, this is it, I can't write any more, it's all gone! That's probably why I push so hard to just keep writing, even if I end up throwing that part out later.

Just had one of those days where I had to force out a mere 173 words because it's a part of the story where I kinda don't know the details and just need to get to the next section where I do know the details. *SIGH*

Yup, I have those stumbling blocks often. I force myself to write through it. I'm a very linear writing... must write scene to scene, cannot jump around, even though I have the scenes listed out. That's because I change plot details as I go, so that one scene five scenes from now? Could totally change. If I write it before I know if it changes, I've wasted writing. I hate wasting writing. So I power through. I usually go back and fix the 'powered through' bits, as they are usually rubbish, but at least the bridge exists, even if it's rickety and prone to breaking. Much easier for me to go back and fix the dodgy bridges than to rebuild the road. *shrugs* we all work differently.

Right now, two scenes sort of turned into ten. I'm on 2550 words so far today. Still going strong. Eolande just dragged Orlagh up to the stone circle on a full moon night to tell her some juicy gossip

E.F.B. said:

I seem to have mastered the art of knowing where in the yard the ticks tend to hang out and I keep myself and the beagle away. 95% success rate most years.

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That sounds like a real useful skill to have. Ticks always seem take me by surprise.

Aggy B. said:

Is it possible it's a sun allergy? I have to be careful about sun exposure, particularly on my hands, because I will get tiny, itchy bumps (sometimes like blisters, sometimes more like bites) on my skin if I get too much sun too early in the year.

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No, this particular rash is not sun allergy because I have that too and it manifests differently with me. (Oh, the joy of being the only one who inherited grandad's weak skin in a family of sun lovers... Yeah, thanks for that, grandad. I used to take vitamin supplements to combat it until, oh irony, I became allergic to those and had an anaphylactic reaction for the first time. A very mild one but it was an experience.) But I wore gloves the last time I worked in the garden, three days before the bumps appeared. Sun allergy appears for me usually within hours of exposure. This one itches worse too and the blisters are larger.

Aggy B. said:

Also, if it is a plant-based reaction then washing with mild soap in alternating hot and cold water can help. (It will help your body remove any oils, pollens, etc from the pores. This is how Mr. Aggy treats poison ivy exposure and it's fairly effective if the reaction is from something you encountered topically. I.E. not a histamine reaction to something you breathed or ingested.)

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Shadowflame said:

Also, to relieve the itching, hold the itchy areas under hot water, it makes things itch really badly but that's because the Histamines that are causing the itching rise to the skin surface. They are then washed away. You can get several hours of relief that way (if of course, this is an allergy based rash.)
Second also, when exposed to poison ivy NEVER WASH WITH HOT WATER. Hot and even warm water causes the oils to spread out and opens up the skin pores. Always wash with cool water and a good soap. I use Dawn dish soap. We have PI all over my yard (round 2 of Round Up will happen again shortly) and since I'm the person who mows, I usually get exposed. Doing the above reduces the PI to only a tiny couple of places and I'm highly allergic to it.

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That's something useful I've got to remember. Thanks!

Shadowflame said:

FriendlyFrog. It does sound like some sort of topical allergy. These can be really difficult to pin down. My opinion is to start a diary and write down what you ate, what you did during the day, and where you went. It's quite possible it's either from sunlight as Aggy pointed out, some sort of pollen or plant allergy or a food allergy. You will have to play the eliminate this game. It's a pain but does work.

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I know, it's just going to be tough since there's often long periods between outbreaks. Last one was like seven months ago and in a different country. It has been gone for years. And it's the first time the rash is so localised to my hands. I may have to think into several different allergens. My hayfever was evolving last year and according to my doctor that may include new things I'm suddenly allergic too. I have a friend who is still trying to pin his allergies down for like three years. Elimination diets and the lot. Another acquintance finally knows his allergen after years: a common dye of blue. I'm still baffled how they worked that one out. It truly is a pain.

Damoclian said:

Good dire cantina, I did a thing the other day (yesterday) and I was wondering if any of you fine folks have ever done similar. I cut 5k from my wip "Moonsway" because I can't build a book on an uncertain foundation, and cause I didnae like where it was going. I rarely plan these things out, I think that's my problem, but do any of you restructure as you go as well? Or find you dislike the tone and decide to change it? I need to feel less alone here!!!! :'(

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Very often. I usually think out the story to a good degree before putting it on paper, but sometimes the first draft isn't doing what I want and something drastic is needed. I've restructured whole stories, shifting the scenes from this sequence to that; decided suddenly that, no, this story must take place in space and transported the lot to Titan; changed characters' sex and dispostion; and shifted stories from humourous to serious tone if that works better. But of course, all that works a lot better with short stories than with novels.

griffins said:

Oh wow, I've been having the same thing! In fact, I'm wearing fingerless mittens as I type. The itch is unreal. Scratching makes the little bumps ooze, which makes it even worse. At some point my fingers started looking mangled, since I was scratching in my sleep. The good news is that the dermatologist prescribed some clobetasol propionate ointment that's completely cleared it up, but the bumps still appear randomly and occasionally. Since it's only on my hands, I suspect it's caused by contact with something around the house, but I don't know what.

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OMG, that sounds almost identical to what I have. Allergy sympathy fist bump! But not too hard, because of itch.

Good thing you have something that works against it. I use cremicort, but that only works well if I catch it early enough and it doesn't get scratched open.

RedDragoness said:

Friendly Frog, I also have skin allergies. For months I had this rash ON MY FACE right under my eye that made it look like my husband beat me. I finally had to see a dermatologist, who sent me to an allergy specialist, who did a patch test that was the absolute worst. But, they found three chemicals commonly used in cleaners and cosmetics that I'm allergic to. I switched my entire family's shampoos, soaps, wipes, and cleaning products, and always read the ingredients labels on things now, and have not had another breakout. If the rash is showing up on your hands, maybe there's something in the handsoap you are using?

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Luckily I have been mostly spared of inconveniently-placed allergic reactions but oh, do I remember those patch tests. Sadly mine so far all came out inconclusive. I've fairly consistent in my product-use, meaning I almost never use new products so the list to check should be small enough, but then I suppose I can always get allergic to something I was fine using for years.

Then I saw this chapter book about kids who win a contest and go climb Mt Everest, and since he loves books about kids doing cool things I bought it for him. He started it last night; he and Mr. Dragon were going to take turns reading it at bedtime. Then Dragonlet wanted to read it himself. Then this morning he asked if he could take it to school. He read in the car. He read at line-up. I took a picture. To see my son, finally reading for fun in his own time, makes me so overwhelmingly happy!

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Awesome! It's always tremendous relief when a kid finally hits on something they take pleasure in reading themselves.

E.F.B. said:

It seems for the moment that I've fixed the video and sound issues the laptop was having. A driver needed updating, not that it could tell me that. *glare* Now I finally feel like everything is cleared from my head for words to get out.

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Oh man, how I hate that. That times I've ranted at my computer because it refuses to tell me what's wrong or gives wrong error-messages. It appears to be inhumanely difficult to programme computers well enough that they actually tell you the driver needs updating instead of saying you need to change your cartridges. There is nothing wrong with the cartridges!

Shadowflame said:

Second also, when exposed to poison ivy NEVER WASH WITH HOT WATER. Hot and even warm water causes the oils to spread out and opens up the skin pores. Always wash with cool water and a good soap. I use Dawn dish soap. We have PI all over my yard (round 2 of Round Up will happen again shortly) and since I'm the person who mows, I usually get exposed. Doing the above reduces the PI to only a tiny couple of places and I'm highly allergic to it.

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Shadow, have you tried Tecnu? I have to work in poison oak all summer and we always do a scrub down with it at the end of the day. I'm not particularly sensitive but some of my coworkers are and it really helps them keep down the rash.

I used to vomit-vomit stories out. Now I'm at the point where I can recognise the effect of my story and character decisions before I get to that bit, and can sit back and go - "Is this where I really want it to go?"

It doesn't make the story any less... well, unpolished. But it does cut down the number of drafts exponentially.

So I only sort of vomit first drafts out now?

*shrugs*

Yeah.

I used to be able to vomit out stories, and now I'm just dry-heaving.

Kitkitdizzi said:

Shadow, have you tried Tecnu? I have to work in poison oak all summer and we always do a scrub down with it at the end of the day. I'm not particularly sensitive but some of my coworkers are and it really helps them keep down the rash.

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I have used Tecnu once and I was very unimpressed.
I'm one of those people who can look at PI and get it somehow. The last time I had it bad enough to go to the doctor about it it was in my face, eyes, down my neck, all over my chest and all over my forearms. We were cleaning up a bunch of dead leaves, that just so happened to have a mess of PI leaves in it. That took 2 rounds of dr visits and meds.
The cool bath and dish soap usually does the trick for me, and I scrub twice, even my hair, even places that were not exposed (as in covered with clothing). That tends to cut things down by 90%.
Oh and don't forget to wash the clothes several times before putting them in the dryer. I tend to overkill with 3.
If I do happen to get a rash (not just a tiny spot or two) I use Hibiclens. It's a topical scrub (like what's used in surgeries) but it dries out the rash in just a day or two. It's also great for bug bites and other injuries. You wet the area, apply a bit of the scrub, carefully wash the area, rinse and then let air dry. I usually let the scrub soak into the rash for a few minutes before rinsing.

Shadowflame said:

I have used Tecnu once and I was very unimpressed.
I'm one of those people who can look at PI and get it somehow. The last time I had it bad enough to go to the doctor about it it was in my face, eyes, down my neck, all over my chest and all over my forearms. We were cleaning up a bunch of dead leaves, that just so happened to have a mess of PI leaves in it. That took 2 rounds of dr visits and meds.
The cool bath and dish soap usually does the trick for me, and I scrub twice, even my hair, even places that were not exposed (as in covered with clothing). That tends to cut things down by 90%.
Oh and don't forget to wash the clothes several times before putting them in the dryer. I tend to overkill with 3.
If I do happen to get a rash (not just a tiny spot or two) I use Hibiclens. It's a topical scrub (like what's used in surgeries) but it dries out the rash in just a day or two. It's also great for bug bites and other injuries. You wet the area, apply a bit of the scrub, carefully wash the area, rinse and then let air dry. I usually let the scrub soak into the rash for a few minutes before rinsing.

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Shoes too. People always forget to clean their shoes after being in the stuff. I'll look into the Hibiclens. Might be useful for my truck's first aid kit. I got nailed by a couple of assassin bugs last year and the bites itched like mad for days.

Sucks that you're so sensitive to PI. It sounds miserable. I'm lucky that I don't get it, though I don't go out of my way to walk in the stuff. Still, sometimes at the end of the day when I'm exhausted I look at the big patch in my way, say f*** it, and walk through it.

It still amuses me when I'm working on a trail and there's a patch of poison oak nearby and a hiker says "look out, there's poison oak there" like it's going to jump out and attack me.

Kitkitdizzi said:

Shoes too. People always forget to clean their shoes after being in the stuff. I'll look into the Hibiclens. Might be useful for my truck's first aid kit. I got nailed by a couple of assassin bugs last year and the bites itched like mad for days.

Sucks that you're so sensitive to PI. It sounds miserable. I'm lucky that I don't get it, though I don't go out of my way to walk in the stuff. Still, sometimes at the end of the day when I'm exhausted I look at the big patch in my way, say f*** it, and walk through it.

It still amuses me when I'm working on a trail and there's a patch of poison oak nearby and a hiker says "look out, there's poison oak there" like it's going to jump out and attack me.

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My youngest, my X and my husband are all not allergic. Oldest began getting rashes a couple of years ago. So beware, it's one of those things that you could become allergic to at any time.
And yes the shoes. I don't wash mine but leave them outside and only wear them while mowing. They are a bit more heavy duty than the washing machine can handle.

I tend to write fairly clean first drafts. Like, I'll have an outline that's a few pages long (for a novel), and then write sequentially. And I've been doing this long enough that my first drafts seem roughly-polished. (I edit as I go, as far as poorly-written sentences and typos are concerned.) That doesn't mean that every draft I write is great, though. I've got a few trunked WIPs. But generally, the first draft is where I do 90% of my work. Outline is 5%, and editing is usually fairly smooth and quick, so another 5% or so.

You can all hate me now.

I've got 20k of words to write in the next week. I'm plenty happy just dealing with that

Heyalo, Cantina! What's happened while I was away?

After telling me they didn't have room for the workshop I proposed, Local Summer Con got back to me last night to say a space had opened up and did I still want to do it? So, I'll be organizing those notes again too. (This will be the Loglines to Query Letter to Finding an Agent workshop which I previously taught in two segments, but will condense into one for this.) We'll see if anyone turns out for it.

Yesterday was kind of blah. Still feeling a little off today, but have work to do so we'll see how that goes.

Aggy, tired

I had either never encountered PI in my life before 6 years ago, or I was immune to it before then. And I used to camp all the time, did Girl Scouts, etc., so likely the latter. I first got a rash after an outdoor LARP event in Mass, and had no idea what I was dealing with. It started with a small itchy spot on my inner forearm. Within a week the rash was all over both arms, hands, legs, torso, and neck. I was miserable. Husband finally decided it was PI and we acted accordingly. Calomine, Tecnu, whatever we could find. Since then I've had two lesser breakouts (I can now recognize it pretty quickly!) but have had no issues in three years. I don't know if that's because I'm smarter about avoiding it, or if it was a temporary sensitivity, but I'm not testing it to find out.

I got out almost 3800 words yesterday, yay me! Hoping to do a similar job today. Busy time at work has settled down enough that I can take time in between waiting for other projects to dedicate to it. But now I must go tackle Jane's notes on my OCI footnote and hopefully shut her up for the quarter.


Wish me luck!

I've never gotten PI in my life. My mom is great at recognizing it and if it's in the yard she sprays it, or if we see it on a walk we stay away from it.


Around midnight last night I remembered some dialog for my WIP I kept meaning to write down and kept forgetting so I ended up getting my phone and putting it there. Why I couldn't have thought of it even once while being on the computer, I don't know.

I would like very much to do more words today than yesterday. I kinda had the sad yesterday, just feeling kinda lonely and generally bummed out and that added to my lack of focus. It seems to have passed today, though so I'm just going to write the snippets my brain gives me and worry about connecting them later. Right now it only matters that I make forward progress.

I received an invitation to speak at the "Write Stuff Writer's Conference" next April (put on by the Greater Lehigh Valley Writer's Group).

I'm going to be doing a Writer Beware presentation, and one or both of two other presentations there - World Building 101 and/or Enter the Hobbit (my presentation on writing combat for SF/F/H). I'm just waiting to see if they want two or three presentations - although I'm a little worried, they asked if I could do a four-hour presentation for Writer Beware with an emphasis on self-publishing. Now, if you give me almost a year, yeah, I'm sure I can, but wow - 4 hours?

I spoke at this conference in 2014 and had a great time. I am glad to be going back again.

Grrrr. I wanted to do nothing and enjoy some relaxation time this weekend, but now I'm afraid that won't be the case.

It makes it hard to write words.

Richard White said:

So, you're implying the Cantina is a larger and more ferocious version of a regular Cantina? (Dire Wolves, Dire Cantinas?)

Dammy, I was 72K into a story and came to a complete halt and said, "Nope, this is not going the way I wanted it to." Now, normally I'm a write to the end and then revise writer, but I could tell I had gone off the rails with the story. Plus, I had a new idea to make it a tad more creepy (The logline is Indiana Jones meets Call of Cthulhu"), so I stopped, harvested out certain scenes or themes I liked and started all over at Chapter 1, Page 1. Honestly, I'm glad I did. I'm not quite back to where I left off, but I think it's a much stronger story than it was and I'm more focused on it.

So, don't feel like the Lone Bunny. You're not out of silver bullets yet - you just spotted the box canyon coming and reversed directions before the bandits could trap you and your trusty steed.

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Goodness, Richard!! You're so cheerifying. My greeting was just the best written equivalent of how I actually talk when I say "Good-day" or "Goodnight". The ends always turn into "ire"s because I call my dog (Sophie) "Snowfire" after a horse from a book I listened to once upon a time, and of course, rhyming ensues....
>.>
<.<
May I volunteer my eyeballs for your Indiana Jones/Call of Cthulhu story as soon as possible??

E.F.B. said:

Honestly, it takes me a couple tries or more to get the tone of most of my scenes "right" (e.g. to match what I have in my head). It's taken some time, but I've finally accepted that it's just how I work, unintentional and annoying as it can be at times. If I don't like how a scene came out the first time and I'm getting all frustrated, I just have to remind myself that I can edit it later because it always gets better after an edit. And it does. Restructuring as I go, ftw.

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For me, in this instance, it was more a matter of not so much cornering myself, as simply falling of a cliff with no bottoms in sight. I had gone, in my effort to re-reach Mainplot City, all the way to the end of Tangential Line Road (which doesn't have an end... or go anywhere). I have occasionally had to write and write again certain scenes, never more than thrice, though. In this case it was more like discovering Pisa was leaning before the tower was finished!

RedDragoness said:

Dammy, I am rewriting my entire novel from scratch. After getting it back from my crit partners and trying to change too many things piecemeal, I decided it needed to be scrapped and started over. Insane? Probably. But you are not alone.

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You are a brave, brave soul RD! :O Like, mega hyper uber brave. I could never rewrite a whole book immediately after giving up on it. I have tried to rewrite some of my books, but always with breaks between the give-up and the new-determination stages.

Filigree said:

Dammy, I cut stuff all the time. I just came off a writing bender where I cut 30K from a fantasy mms, then added a completely different 30K. I needed to do it, I resisted it for years, but the weight of beta and editing feedback finally pushed me. It's a better book now.

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Yay, improvement!! I don't normally do what I just did, with the cutting of the things from the book and all... usually when I reach a point like this one just recently reached, I give up and throw everything away and mope for a few days. But you go, improving your work! You're way ahead of me

Yzjdriel said:

I don't think I've ever cut that FEW words in one go once I realized something was off. Of course, my writing tends to be rather verbose and a bit allovertheplace when I first write a draft, so maybe that has something to do with it.

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I am told by reliable sources that my writing is "whimsical" but like I said above, I usually just abandon things after a certain level of frustration is attained. I'm in new territory now!! :O and it felt like a whole bunch of words at the time, it wouldda been more if I hadn't salvaged so much!

E.F.B. said:

I *wish* I could vomit first drafts...

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It's hard to build something beautiful when all your materials are made of puke...

Friendly Frog said:

Very often. I usually think out the story to a good degree before putting it on paper, but sometimes the first draft isn't doing what I want and something drastic is needed. I've restructured whole stories, shifting the scenes from this sequence to that; decided suddenly that, no, this story must take place in space and transported the lot to Titan; changed characters' sex and dispostion; and shifted stories from humourous to serious tone if that works better. But of course, all that works a lot better with short stories than with novels.

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I am in "planner" training camp right now, Population: Me! Is that short story of yours with the space and the Titan and the sex-disposition with seriousness on the side available for looking at with my eyeballs?

lilyWhite said:

Yeah.

I used to be able to vomit out stories, and now I'm just dry-heaving.

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You could try not throwing up at all, and like, just throwing letters around until words come out??

Religion0 said:

Heyalo, Cantina! What's happened while I was away?

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Stuff, things, words, thoughts and a minor breakdown on my part, nothing serious! Where'd you go? :s