The Dastardly Dungeon of Deliciously Devious Drinks

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greendragon

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Second beta reader comments came in for Misfortune of Vision! Many were similar to first beta reader comments, so that's a win. Obviously needed to be fixed. I wonder how many others I will get? I sent out to three others. Often I lose at least one or two.
 

greendragon

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OK, I'm part of an authors' group. It's a great group. We have all levels of writers with lots of different genres and styles. It's dynamic and helpful. There's even a second, newer, group that I started going to last month.

That being said, there is a fairly new member that goes to both groups, like me. He's a scientist, retired and used to writing technical essays. Now he's trying his hand at his first novel. He's got a great premise... but we can't wean him off infodumping the backstory. The fact that he's a technical writer and a scientist is patently clear.

This is the fourth time he's resubmitted the same first chapter. It's changed forms several times, but it's still bludgeoning with family history of the main character within two paragraphs of the opening. Many of us have told him, in BOTH authors' groups.

We told him he needs more scenes and interaction sprinkled into his narration, and not just back story and explanation. This is what we get on page 2 (exactly as written, with punctuation/capitalization, etc.):

"Dan sat opposite me. He said "my name is Dan, who might you be?"
"I am Jennifer" I said
"Hello Jennifer"

I want to cry. I really do. I want to give him good feedback, help him improve his craft. But I really don't know how without hurting him. He is very prickly and defensive when we give critiques, even when we make certain to point out the good parts first.

ARGH.

Also, he tends to put a lot of sexual themes in his work, as in disturbing ones. Disturbing is fine, that's what art should do. But having a priest who is homosexual and suddenly starts preying on young boys without any reason is odd. Every story he's given us has some sexual experimentation involving young teenagers or children, and often with adults preying on them.
 
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VeryBigBeard

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That's a really thorny one, greendragon. Especially at an in-person group. Stuff like that is one of the reasons I stopped doing in-person workshops and such. It's so easy for stuff to seem personal when it's not.

What it sounds like this writer needs is a gentle push to read more widely and more critically. Habits from technical writing are going to be hard to overcome, but technical writers often have to be adept at analyzing how writing works, so maybe try to frame it very encouragingly, ex: I see where you're trying to explain the character but maybe look at a couple of favourite books and see how they weave it in."

Then again, some people are not going to want to hear that and if he's new and defensive this may be a lesson he has to learn on his own. Maybe suggest he submit chapter 2 and keep going, rather than stalling out on chapter 1 every week? Sometimes it just takes getting the story going and getting some confidence and voice will come naturally and instinctively, making the info-dump issues disappear. He can always fix chapter 1 on revision. Later.

When I was in a couple writing classes I used to see new writers circle around first chapters all the time, always seeking validation that it's OK so they can continue. That's common in technical writing, too: check reception early and often, adjust as quickly as possible. Sometimes giving the positive push can help. After all, no writer is going to nail everything first time. Point out what is working, and encourage him to move forward.

It's an interesting problem. Hope this helps somewhat. Wish you all the luck with it.
 

greendragon

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Thanks, VBB. The first group is larger (about 10-12 of us each week) and I have started saying very little in critique for him, letting others speak. They're all saying much the same thing. The smaller group - well, Friday will be my second time and their third time meeting. We'll see.
 

Cobalt Jade

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greendragon, the sexual themes would skeeve me too. I write erotica and often downright porn, but I don't think it's appropriate to share it in an in-person writing group. If people are interested and want to read it, I submit it privately.
 

Damoclian

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Hey all. Does anyone have any recs for urban fantasy where the MC isn't a detective, there's still a crime involved, and if there is a love interest, it's not the focus?

I dunno if you already read this but: The Burned Man by Peter McLean! Like, so much, just, just BUY DRAKE already! :D I wrote a review of it on Amazon .ca before the whole debacle with Amazon not accepting certain specific reviews of mine, and if that doesn't convince you, I don't know what will! :O
 

greendragon

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greendragon, the sexual themes would skeeve me too. I write erotica and often downright porn, but I don't think it's appropriate to share it in an in-person writing group. If people are interested and want to read it, I submit it privately.

Sexual themes themselves are fine for me. I've written (and shared in group) some highly sexualized scenes. We're all adults, and we do give warnings ahead of time if there is high levels of sex or violence. It's the conflation of homosexuality and pedophilism that is bothering me. And that he has so many stories that touch on pedophilism.
 

_Sian_

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Well, if you didn't rule out detectives, I'd be yelling Dresden Files from the rooftops. But I'm afraid that's really the only Urban Fantasy I've loved :) And he's definitely a PI.

Yeah. I'm not a massive fan of detective novels in my fantasy. That being said, I loved Ben Aaronovitch's work, but his main cop character has barely made constable, never mind detective. And they're very... real in their representation of the emergency services, so I think it's that I like that as well.



I think Cobra's books kinda fit that mold? Maybe?


Ooh. That's an idea.

I dunno if you already read this but: The Burned Man by Peter McLean! Like, so much, just, just BUY DRAKE already! :D I wrote a review of it on Amazon .ca before the whole debacle with Amazon not accepting certain specific reviews of mine, and if that doesn't convince you, I don't know what will! :O

I have not read it, but I have indeed heard of it *goes to investigate*

Sexual themes themselves are fine for me. I've written (and shared in group) some highly sexualized scenes. We're all adults, and we do give warnings ahead of time if there is high levels of sex or violence. It's the conflation of homosexuality and pedophilism that is bothering me. And that he has so many stories that touch on pedophilism.

He sounds a bit... well. Precious and overly sure that everyone else shares his views, to me. (That being said, I'm judging a person I've never met. He is giving off old man dude-bro feels, if that makes any sense. Like I would expect a special hat and reddit account if her were a much younger man).
 

Shadowflame

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Absolutely drained tonight. But I got a LOT done. Everything on my to-do list in fact. Including scrubbing out the tub (a job I hate as we have hard water and B gets really dirty at his job)

Now for a shower, and I think I'll curl up with a book and go to bed early
 

Damoclian

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Sexual themes themselves are fine for me. I've written (and shared in group) some highly sexualized scenes. We're all adults, and we do give warnings ahead of time if there is high levels of sex or violence. It's the conflation of homosexuality and pedophilism that is bothering me. And that he has so many stories that touch on pedophilism.

My advice, since this fellow is making you uncomfortable, would be to tell your facilitator about it. If this is a library group you find him at, then there really should be a librarian, or someone associated with the library there, at least occasionally. If it's not a library group, I guess you should use your social(spidy)-senses to find the most leader-like person in the circle, and ask them to talk to this chap in PRIVATE, unless you think you are up for it yourself.

I must stress that open and public confrontation is the worst possible thing to attempt. Although, I should also recommend that if you or anyone else does confront the guy, make sure someone else somewhere else knows when, where, why, and with whom this is happening. I don't mean to jump and shadows and blow me ol' whistle, but people who feature such topics so heavily in their writing, either have, have had, or want to have some sort of experience in the area featured. I'm not as familiar with the situation as you, but I should also suggest taking care in what ever course of action you settle upon, and not working alone.

This dude could need help, he might have been hurt once upon a time and is now trying to work through it all, he might be a threat to someone else, or any number of other possibilities. My last suggestion, rehearse or have your representative rehearse as many possible permutations of the situation as possible, and what recourses that are available. The worst thing you can do here is nothing, GD. Remember that.

Yeah. I'm not a massive fan of detective novels in my fantasy. That being said, I loved Ben Aaronovitch's work, but his main cop character has barely made constable, never mind detective. And they're very... real in their representation of the emergency services, so I think it's that I like that as well.

I have not read it, but I have indeed heard of it *goes to investigate*

"Peter McLean" is our very own Pete MC in the Cantina... Just fyi. Should I put that DRAKE review on my blog....??? :s
 

greendragon

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Dammy, that's very true. I'd never confront him directly, certainly not on my own. He's old (maybe 65-70) but he's still male and I'm female and therefore likely stronger than me, despite my relatively high mass. I grew up in Miami, have been mugged twice and had my home invaded. Trust me, I've sufficient paranoia to make certain not to put myself in a dangerous situation.

I AM worried about his latent tendencies and the danger they may pose to someone else. I am absolutely sure, however, that the other folks in my group are feeling the same as I am, including Michelle, the librarian who runs the group. And she's a victim of abuse herself. I have no doubt that she will talk to him at some point. I will mention my own discomfort to her soon, just so she's aware of my feelings on the matter. But judging from the glances around the room (from both men and women), we're all disturbed by this.

I think what bothers me the most about him is that his writing AND his reading of his writing is incredibly clinical and cold. He has no emotions in his delivery, and each paragraph is a step-by-step evaluation of the story, not a story itself. To me, this is an indication of either an inability to express emotions (not unusual in men of that age and career), or an inability to HAVE emotions - which leads me down the psychopath lane.

I'm now rather tempted to write a short story, which is very unusual for me. A short story of a psychopath who works out his plans in an authors' group, getting feedback on what is believable and practical in his kidnapping story, and then uses that information in real life.

*shudders*
 

E.F.B.

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Morning Cantina. I may be seeing Beauty and the Beast today if we can get my dad up and out the door in time. I used my Disney Movie Rewards point to get a $10 movie ticket voucher, so we're getting one ticket free. #lovethemdiscounts ;) Until then I'll try to get some wordage in.

My advice, since this fellow is making you uncomfortable, would be to tell your facilitator about it. If this is a library group you find him at, then there really should be a librarian, or someone associated with the library there, at least occasionally. If it's not a library group, I guess you should use your social(spidy)-senses to find the most leader-like person in the circle, and ask them to talk to this chap in PRIVATE, unless you think you are up for it yourself.

I must stress that open and public confrontation is the worst possible thing to attempt. Although, I should also recommend that if you or anyone else does confront the guy, make sure someone else somewhere else knows when, where, why, and with whom this is happening. I don't mean to jump and shadows and blow me ol' whistle, but people who feature such topics so heavily in their writing, either have, have had, or want to have some sort of experience in the area featured. I'm not as familiar with the situation as you, but I should also suggest taking care in what ever course of action you settle upon, and not working alone.

This dude could need help, he might have been hurt once upon a time and is now trying to work through it all, he might be a threat to someone else, or any number of other possibilities. My last suggestion, rehearse or have your representative rehearse as many possible permutations of the situation as possible, and what recourses that are available. The worst thing you can do here is nothing, GD. Remember that.
I second all of this^. GD, The more you say about this guy, the more squicky I feel about him. It seems the best case scenario is that he's been abused at some point as is trying to work through it in his writing. I don't want to think about the worst case. Either way, it sounds like he may have some serious issues going on. Please be very careful, whatever you choose to do. Honestly, I think whomever confronts him should either be male, or have a male present for the reasons of you not knowing how this guy will react. If you know anyone in law enforcement, you might see if you can have them nearby too.
 

greendragon

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Michelle's husband is LEO. I have no worries for her. If she does confront him, she will do it at the library when it's full of people, but in a private area, likely with other librarians.

He could very well be working through some of his issues. I hope that's the case. However, I'm not certain a public reading of his work is the right way to do that. We do our group in a coffee shop, and read the stories aloud for critique. There are sometimes children there. We do look around or lower our voices if there is questionable matters (which does happen in the other stories - drugs, violence, sexual encounters, strong language). However, this feels beyond that.

I am currently reading his newest story, and just got to the place where a 13 year old girl main character seduces her father's much older friend. There has not been one story yet (out of about five?) that doesn't involve sex with a minor (boy or girl. One boy was 8) and an adult.

The more I talk it out with you folks, the more creepy I'm feeling about him. Sigh.
 

Mary Love

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I'm now rather tempted to write a short story, which is very unusual for me. A short story of a psychopath who works out his plans in an authors' group, getting feedback on what is believable and practical in his kidnapping story, and then uses that information in real life.

*shudders*

Yeah, this sounds unreal--like short story material, just... *double shudders*
 

Shadowflame

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GD I would be very very creeped out about that. As you say, he could be working out some issues of his own, or...
Having the library staff address this is best. It takes you out of the equation and puts people in positions of power the ones to handle this. I think it would go better that way.

Off to create my to-do list for the day. :) happy that I completed everything yesterday. Usually, I get 90% done and just move over the uncompleted items to the next day. I'm busy enough I have to do lists that way I don't miss anything. There are days the cats have to come in and stare at me until I take a break aka feed them. lol
 

greendragon

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Yup. I'm already framing my approach to Michelle in my head.

"Michelle, while I normally don't have any issues with highly sexualized content, I've noticed every story by Paul has some version of an adult having sex with a child. While I'm not judging, I am a little skeeved out by it and I'm worried there might be a deeper issue. You're the leader of the group, and I leave it in your hands if you wish to broach the subject with him, but I had to pass on my feelings. I'll support you either way."
 

Maggie Maxwell

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That sounds perfect, GD, and like something that definitely needs to be said. That level of inappropriate relationships in writing is way too damn much and definitely seems like a sign of deeper problems in the writer.
 

greendragon

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I'm fully cognizant of the "Kitty Genovese" effect - none of us mention anything because they all assume someone else will. I won't let myself fall victim to it. And if he really does need help working something out, a counselor might be a better venue.
 

Cobalt Jade

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Yes, gosh, I don't know what I would do in a situation like that. If my inner alarm was raised, I think that I would privately tell the group's moderator about it and then leave the group, returning only when the guy is gone. But that is because I swore, after a number of incidents, that I'd never subject myself to an icky situation/abuse/uncomfortable feelings like that again.
 

greendragon

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I have no worries with myself from him. I worry about others. And I refuse to be run off by anyone from my one social group, one I look forward to all week.

Just read another of his stories (he submitted several for the once-a-month group, and I just got them from the moderator on Monday, so I'm trying to catch up). In this one the teenage girl said her mother never had 'the sex talk', but just let her watch mom and dad make love as an education on sex. Luckily this character didn't have any actual sex before she was adult. In fact, she held off until she was married. But there was that 'talk'.

I'm thinking this might be a bit of Madonna/Whore complex. Where every woman is one or the other - saint or slut.

GRRRR! *must stop psychoanalyzing every person she meets*
 

JJ Litke

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I can't remember where I had this conversation now, but I recall once discussing writer groups with someone, and they talked about subjects or issues that you refuse to read. It hadn't occurred to me before then that such a thing might come up, but I realized I do have some topics that I just flat don't want to read about. It's easy to say "this is what I'd do" when you're not in the situation, but my plan is that if ever confronted with this in a writers group, I'll stick firm to that--sorry, I'm not going to read or give feedback on a story that involves [topic]. Since I'm definitely not the target audience for such a story, this really shouldn't be a problem.

Like I said, actually following through on that will be harder in reality. But I'm pretty sure I could do it.
 

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How does this guy act outside of his writing? Over the years, I've run into a fair share of strange folks in writing groups. The ones that are truly troubling are difficult to read, like they're not thinking on the same wavelength as everyone else. The things they tell you require a little sifting through, like they have a certain disconnect from reality. Only once have I encountered this, but I fired off an instant group e-mail and we voted to edge him out. Of course, our guys in the group were like, "Who? Are we talking about the new guy?" But everyone else was glad I brought it up because this fellow had been seen creeping around the bookstore we meet at, hovering over someone's 16-year-old daughter who works there after school. Fortunately, most of these odd people rarely come back.
 

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Also, it might be worth mentioning this is a city with a small-town feel. 11,000 population, but at least half of those work for one company, Corning. I do, and this guy worked there for 30 years, and now does consulting work for them in retirement.
 

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On a better note, the first words of Misfortune of Song have been written! Only 150 so far, but it's a start.

Maelan kept his back stiff and his gaze forward as his Chief paced in front of him. He couldn't bring himself to look Diarmait Ua Briain in the eye, not after the command he'd just been given. For Maelan, like all honest warriors, the idea of spying not only left a bitter taste in his mouth, it also broke their code of honour
The Ua Briain Chieftain stopped mid-stride. “Did you hear me, Maelan?”
Concentrating on the wall tapestry in the large royal chamber, Maelan remained still. “Yes, my Chief. I heard your words.”
He stepped so close to Maelan their noses almost touched. Maelan could smell the mead on his breath and the onions he had for lunch. “And have you nothing to say?”
“Nothing, my Chief.”
Diarmait growled and twirled, his thin frame hidden by the enormous multi-colored cloak he loved wearing.
 
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