A dumb question for writers of "historical fiction"

blacbird · Aug 31, 2015

What exactly, in today's publishing environment, constitutes "historical fiction"? I'm finishing a novel set around 1850 in frontier America, but I never considered it to fit into the "historical fiction" category, and I'm not at all sure I could query it using that term. But maybe i'm misconstruing what the term now means. I just don't know. Surely it's more than just a matter of historical setting. But maybe i'm wrong about that, too. Your views?

caw

snafu1056 · Sep 1, 2015

Well this just makes me curious about your definition of historical fiction, because a novel set in the 1850's sure sounds like it to me. Maybe you feel like it doesn't qualify because it doesn't involve any major historical events or people?

mayqueen · Sep 1, 2015

Anything older than the 1980s or so can be marketed as historical fiction. There are a lot of novels that are recent history (19th century and more recent) that are categorized as literary fiction. Why don't you think your novel would be historical fiction?

angeliz2k · Sep 1, 2015

I'm kind of with snafu on this one: if being set in a historical setting doesn't make it historical fiction, what does? I think that's pretty much the only criterion...

ETA: If there are other elements, like fantasy, then it might be a subgenre of historical, but still historical.

morngnstar · Sep 1, 2015

I started watching the coursera course on historical fiction (link was posted here somewhere). He gives a few definitions. A couple are: 60 years before writing, as established by Waverly; or set in a time before the author's birth. Both would include your setting.

sunandshadow · Sep 1, 2015

If that's the one I read the scene from, it can definitely be labeled historical fiction.

Calder · Sep 1, 2015

I think you may be labouring under the illusion that 'Historical Fiction' must deal with a fictionalised account of major historical events. This isn't at all true. It's not limited to 'Wolf Hall' and the like. Any novel set in the past, usually in a time beyond common living memory, is historical fiction. There are a few sub-genres, such as Historical Romance and some types of historical fiction form genres of their own, such as Westerns, or 'noir' thrillers set in the thirties and forties. Try taking a look at the back covers of some paperbacks. Usually you'll find the categories / genres the book fits listed there e.g. 'historical/romance/adult.'

Deb Kinnard · Sep 1, 2015

If it's older than me (b. 1951), it's historical. If it's in my lifetime, it's not. That'll be $0.25.

chompers · Sep 1, 2015

I don't know the actual cutoff, but I would definitely count 1850 as historical. It's taking place two centuries ago!

blacbird · Sep 2, 2015

chompers said:
I don't know the actual cutoff, but I would definitely count 1850 as historical. It's taking place two centuries ago!

Bah! I remember it as if i just woke up in the coffin yesterday evening.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Sep 2, 2015

blacbird said:
What exactly, in today's publishing environment, constitutes "historical fiction"?

Calder said:
I think you may be labouring under the illusion that 'Historical Fiction' must deal with a fictionalised account of major historical events. This isn't at all true.

Well... yes and no. I bolded the part of Blac's question that is really key in this definition, because I don't think he's asking what readers - or writers - define historical fiction as, but what agents and publishers are looking for to sell as historical fiction. And those two things are somewhat different.

I submitted a 'historical novel' to an agent 6 or so years ago, and the feedback I got was that it would be impossible for her to sell it in the UK historical fiction market because it wasn't 'high concept' enough - and by that she meant it wasn't a fictionalised account of one of those big historical characters or events that are instantly recognisable to readers (as Calder alluded to). Instead, it was a domestic story in a historical setting, featuring original characters living lives that couldn't have been lived in any other time or place, so in that sense it would be considered historical by a lot of people's definition. But it wasn't the type of historical fiction that agents and publishers were looking to sell.

So yes, Blac, your novel is almost certainly historical fiction, but whether it's what agents mean when they say they're looking for historical fiction... that's another question.

blacbird · Sep 2, 2015

Kallithrix said:
Well... yes and no. I bolded the part of Blac's question that is really key in this definition, because I don't think he's asking what readers - or writers - define historical fiction as, but what agents and publishers are looking for to sell as historical fiction. And those two things are somewhat different.

I submitted a 'historical novel' to an agent 6 or so years ago, and the feedback I got was that it would be impossible for her to sell it in the UK historical fiction market because it wasn't 'high concept' enough - and by that she meant it wasn't a fictionalised account of one of those big historical characters or events that are instantly recognisable to readers (as Calder alluded to). Instead, it was a domestic story in a historical setting, featuring original characters living lives that couldn't have been lived in any other time or place, so in that sense it would be considered historical by a lot of people's definition. But it wasn't the type of historical fiction that agents and publishers were looking to sell.

So yes, Blac, your novel is almost certainly historical fiction, but whether it's what agents mean when they say they're looking for historical fiction... that's another question.

Thank you. That was pretty much what i was trying to ascertain, and I didn't express the question very clearly, because I hadn't really thought it out very clearly. So, if you write about Cardinal Richelieu and the degenerate French monarchy in the 1700s that's historical, but if you write about Jacques d'Alembert and his peasant family in Alsace striving not to starve on a diet of turnips and wild greens, that's not historical?

My question is based on the 98% complete novel I have that is somewhat satirical, somewhat tall-tale, but firmly grounded in the U.S. western frontier setting prior to the Civil War. I'm trying to figure out how to categorize it. I think maybe I just won't, but simply use my approach when I was a high school baseball pitcher: Here it comes, hit it if you can.

caw

Sonsofthepharaohs · Sep 2, 2015

blacbird said:
Thank you. That was pretty much what i was trying to ascertain, and I didn't express the question very clearly, because I hadn't really thought it out very clearly. So, if you write about Cardinal Richelieu and the degenerate French monarchy in the 1700s that's historical, but if you write about Jacques d'Alembert and his peasant family in Alsace striving not to starve on a diet of turnips and wild greens, that's not historical?

Both are historical fiction, but for marketing purposes you might want to describe the latter type as coming of age/slice of life/saga/whatever etc. first, and historical second, because you're not selling it on it's historicalness, but on the type of story it is within that setting - does that make sense?

Jamesaritchie · Sep 3, 2015

By and large, anything from WWII back is technically historical fiction, but this does not mean it can or will be marketed as such. Historical fiction as a marketing category is about history, not about a date.

The westerns I've sold were all set in the 1860's or 1870s, but while they were clearly "historical", none were marketed as historical fiction. The marketing category they fall in is category western.

History itself plays a role in the marketing category of historical fiction. History is the solid background, and the characters interact with the history in a way not done with other categories set in the past.

Were I trying to sell your novel, I wouldn't worry about it. Describing a novel is always better than trying to categorize it. If you categorize the novel, you may knock many agents and publishers out of the hunt. If you merely describe it well, you're likely to bring agents and publishers into the hunt who would not be there under the category "historical novel".

angeliz2k · Sep 3, 2015

I have to disagree a bit with Kalithrix here. I think it's historical, period, and that it should be queried as "historical". It makes no difference whether it's about real historical personages or not, it's historical first and other things second.

Now, whether non-famous-people historicals are what agents are looking for is another matter, and what the market wants is another matter still.

FWIW, I recently signed with an agent for a novel set in 1850s Georgia and Washington City. No famous people anywhere to be seen. Queried as historical. Picked up as historical. [No publishing deal yet because we haven't actually sent it out on sub, but when we do, it'll be subbed as a historical novel.]

So, if the question's about whether such a story might have a chance, I think it does, though you might have trouble since "frontier" might read "western", and that's not a huge selling point these days. But having no historical figures isn't, I don't think, a problem in itself.

Just my two cents!

ETA: And I agree with JAR about not sweating the category too much.

PorterStarrByrd · Sep 3, 2015

mayqueen said:
Anything older than the 1980s or so can be marketed as historical fiction. There are a lot of novels that are recent history (19th century and more recent) that are categorized as literary fiction. Why don't you think your novel would be historical fiction?

WAIT A MINUTE !!!! I was happily into my second marriage by then (talk about historical fiction)

I'd say anything that pre-dates most of your audience.

mayqueen · Sep 3, 2015

I think angeliz2k raises some good points. Yes, there is a type of historical fiction that is "big history" so to speak, that fictionalizes big names or events. But there's also historical fiction that uses the historical setting with no big names or events. I think it's more common in nineteenth century and more recent historical fiction, but I can think of several books that fit into this second type that have been successful. Jessie Burton's The Miniaturist, for example. Anna Freeman's The Fair Fight. etc.

But jamesaritchie is also right. Genres are marketing labels. Query it as historical fiction to agents who rep that. Query it as a western. Query it as literary fiction. Query widely because you never know who is going to connect with it.

flapperphilosopher · Sep 3, 2015

I asked a similar question a few months ago-- I also have a novel that's solidly set in the past, but it's very character-driven, no famous people or major events, and wondered how that fit in the marketing category of "historical fiction" (which I agree is different than the general definition). Of course I got a similar range of responses (thanks all!) but now that I'm preparing to actually query myself I have one more thing to add. There are very few agents who represent historical fiction who don't also represent literary and/or upmarket and/or commercial fiction. There are also very, very few agents who represent literary/upmarket/commercial who expressly say they don't take historical. So stressing over which of these it should be presented as really is less important than it seems.

Flicka · Sep 3, 2015

Hm... I write historical mysteries, but somehow I always assumed they'd be mysteries first and historical second. Does anyone have opinions on how I should query? So far I've only focused on writing the damned things.

mayqueen · Sep 3, 2015

I queried a historical mystery/thriller as both a historical and a mystery/thriller. It worked out in terms of getting requests from agents who rep both types of books (as in, mystery/thriller agents and historical agents, though this is overlap).

flapperphilosopher · Sep 3, 2015

Yeah, again the fact that most agents rep several genres is a helpful headache-easer. A quick search on Agentquery turns up 82 agents who rep both historicals and mysteries, which gives you a pretty good pool to dip into before even having to worry if it's more mystery or more historical.

ETA: That's 82 who are "actively looking for new clients," too-- there's 111 if you uncheck that option.

benbenberi · Sep 3, 2015

IMO there's a big difference between a story that is deeply embedded in a specific historical context and requires that specific context to work as a story, and one that just happens to have a historical setting (but could occur with minimal change in any of a variety of settings, historical or otherwise). The former is definitely historical fiction first & foremost. The latter might be categorized many different ways, historical fiction being probably not the primary placement.

cooeedownunder · Sep 17, 2015

I hear from somewhere that the 1960s are now being considered historical.

Jack Judah · Sep 17, 2015

If your story is set in the 1850s on the frontier, I think there's a good chance you might have a western. Where on the frontier is it set?

tammay · Sep 20, 2015

angeliz2k said:
I'm kind of with snafu on this one: if being set in a historical setting doesn't make it historical fiction, what does? I think that's pretty much the only criterion...

ETA: If there are other elements, like fantasy, then it might be a subgenre of historical, but still historical.

I agree with this. I write historical mysteries and although I'm self-publishing, I classify my series as both mysteries and historical fiction and plan on targeting promotions later on to both genres.

Tam

A dumb question for writers of "historical fiction"

blacbird

snafu1056

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

morngnstar

sunandshadow

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Calder

Deb Kinnard

chompers

blacbird

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

blacbird

Sonsofthepharaohs

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Jamesaritchie

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

PorterStarrByrd

nutruring tomorrows criminals today

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

flapperphilosopher

Flicka

Dull Old Person

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

flapperphilosopher

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW

cooeedownunder

Grateful for the day

Jack Judah

Lost somewhere on the Nile

tammay

Got the hang of it, here