Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders: "Rape victims should take responsibility"

Viridian · Sep 7, 2015

I was sexually assaulted, and I'm pretty sure the guy that did it had no idea that what he was doing was wrong.

He was a friend. We'd discussed having sex before, but I wasn't ready yet. He invited me to a houseparty of his, encouraged me to drink heavily, and flirted with me. I didn't realize he was trying to have sex with me.

He kept telling me that I needed to go lie down in his room because I'd had too much to drink, but I insisted I wanted to stay outside with everyone else. Eventually, he and another guy picked me up and moved me to his bedroom.

As soon as we were alone, he tried to... er, initiate sex. I was too drunk to move and could barely speak. I didn't want to have sex and was totally incapable of explaining that. Eventually, when I didn't respond, he left and began vomiting up mixed drinks and shots in the bathroom.

I am almost totally certain he had no idea he sexually assaulted me. I'm sure in his mind, he tried to initiate drunk sex with a friend he thought was down to fuck. In reality, he sexually assaulted a girl who wasn't totally sure she wanted to have sex with him, while she was way too drunk to consent, when she already made it clear that she didn't want to lie down in his room.

Rape happens in a gray area. I seriously doubt most rapists even think of themselves as rapists. The problem with Chrissie Hynde's take on rape is that it pretends rape happens between a woman and a burly stranger, when the stranger is some burly criminal and the girl is kicking and screaming for help. It pretends the rape might prevented if only she were better at escaping. Which may be true in some cases, but in others... it seems more complicated than that.

EDIT: What I'm saying is, I don't mind rape prevention tips. But no rape prevention tip would've ever prevented my sexual assault.

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 7, 2015

It's such a grey area they may even know they are ignoring consent but still don't consider it rape. On the other hand, many of them do know it is rape. It's impossible to provide exact statistics, probably, but it's been my experience there's a significant enough portion either way. But none of those ways involves making a victim feel like they deserved it because they didn't behave the "right" way.

I know a lot of stories that are similar to Viridian's, and I also know a lot like the gas station assault I mentioned in the other thread where there were only two employees in a gas station, both women, and a guy dragged one into a bathroom and tried to rape her. Or another guy in the same place tried to assault a woman up against the beer racks. I would consider those stranger rapes. But it had nothing to do with what the employees were wearing (standard employee uniform) or their behavior, or anything else except the guy saw a chance and took it. None of the standard rape tips could have helped these women, assaulted in their place of employment in employer-mandated clothing and theoretically with security measures such as working video cameras and more than one employee present.

Roxxsmom · Sep 7, 2015

I remember reading something recently that only about 6% of men have raped, and another study that most rapists are serial offenders, and yet another than a tiny percentage of men are responsible for the overwhelming majority of sexual assaults. I don't have time to rustle those citations up right now, but they've been linked frequently in other threads where rape is discussed. And we've all been taught that rape is always a crime of control, humiliation, and punishment, not misplaced passion.

But we also hear stories like Viridian's, where the assailant was some guy who was so drunk he might not have even known what he was doing. He thought she wanted it as much as he was and was too drunk to realize how drunk she was. He didn't get her drunk on purpose and drag her back to his room.

How many rapes and sexual assaults happen at the hands of guys who are literally in blackout or under the influence of drugs that lower inhibitions and decrease one's ability to read the signals and desires of others?

Are these the nice boys that the police worry about ruining the lives of?

And as a possible counter to the "only 6% of men rape" statistics, there are those chilling surveys that show that a lot of guys say they'd rape a woman if they could get away with it (when I was in college, the number was 1/3, and it's wavered back and forth ever since) or if they felt they'd earned sex with her (like they'd spent a lot of money on her).

What differentiates the 6% who actually go through with it from the more substantial number who say they want to rape women (at least some of the time)?

It's darned hard to get accurate data, of course, because nearly everything relies on self-reports. Depending on wording (and the guy's beliefs about what response is socially acceptable), surveys can be skewed either way.

And surely there are some rapists who don't even think what they did is rape or assault, men like Viridian's friend, who wouldn't check that "yes I've sexually assaulted someone" box on a survey (and might even be in blackout, so they don't remember the incident at all).

The question is, how many of these guys are one offs, and how many get into this situation repeatedly?

I know there's a lot of interest in educating men so they won't be rapists. For some (like the guys who can't maintain when they're drunk or who are a bit foggy about what consent actually is), education might work. But for the ones who are motivated by a desire to hurt, control and humiliate? Who think that gang raping a girl and bragging about it, or even posting it on You Tube makes them look cool? Will education turn them into better people, or are they already broken beyond repair? If those guys are that core 6% (the repeat rapists or predators. The ones who admit to raping on surveys), what can we do about them?

And is there a way to raise and socialize the next generation of boys so they won't turn out like this, or is a small percentage of men just broken (wired to be sexually aggressive or lacking in empathy), but we can't know who they are or lock them up until they've done it at least once?

It's a completely fucked up situation, no matter what.

NinjaFingers · Sep 8, 2015

The answer to the core 6%, those for whom the power of rape is all, is obviously to remove them from society. To lock them up.

The question is: Is there a way to get to them when they are boys (or girls) and train the tendency out before it becomes ingrained into their personality?

harmonyisarine · Sep 8, 2015

We can't lock them up if the victims don't feel they can report it, and they will never feel like they can report it if they're told that they probably won't be believed or are asked all of the usual bevy of victim-blaming questions (and male victims are even more rarely believed or report, I have read). So first, we have to change that. Somehow.

Roxxsmom · Sep 8, 2015

Speaking of male victims, I've run across some people lately who actually think that rape of men is almost nonexistent, even in war and prison situations, and that only gay men rape other men. Their rationale? There's yet another book making the rounds, written by sociobiologists who insist that all men are born to rape women as a reproductive strategy, so from that standpoint, it makes no sense for men to rape other men (or children, or older women). If inconvenient data exist that refute your pet hypothesis about why men rape, deny that the data exist at all.

Not to derail the conversation about female rape victims with a discussion about rape of men, but you can see why reporting any rape is so difficult for victims. There are a ton of people walking around (some in positions of care and responsibility) who have ideas about why rape occurs, and listening to actual victims threatens their world view.

Amadan · Sep 8, 2015

Er, that book and review is over 15 years old.

I haven't actually seen any data one way or the other about how common male-on-male rape is.

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 8, 2015

I mean, you hear stories about priests and coaches raping boys and young men quite a bit. I've personally been sexually assaulted (though not raped) by male attackers, so I know it happens. I'm afraid I've never seen goo statistics on it, though.

Roxxsmom · Sep 8, 2015

Amadan said:
Er, that book and review is over 15 years old.

I haven't actually seen any data one way or the other about how common male-on-male rape is.

Yes, the book's been around for a while, and is pretty well debunked in scientific circles, as far as I know, but I've recently had the joy of running into some folks who are tossing those kinds of arguments out in web land. I think they're trying to refute the idea that rape is a crime of control and humiliation and explain why their novels are chock filled with male on female rape but no male on male.

I'm guessing it's rather hard to get good data about male rape victims outside of institutional populations , and even there it's probably under-reported. There have been some articles about male sexual victimization in war zones recently.

I'd be very surprised if it's not at least as under reported as female rape, however. As has been noted elsewhere, the stigma and treatment afforded male victims is even nastier.

Some data suggest that sexual assault of men by women is more common that most people suppose too, but again, it's impossible to get exact numbers.

What I don't know is if anyone has done any research on the motivations of women who sexually molest children and who assault or rape adult men. Do they fit the same profiles as male rapists in terms of motive and attitude, and if so, are the relative statistics similar?

Anna_Hedley · Sep 8, 2015

The CDC has some statistics aggregated from various sources:

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf

According to those statistics, women are raped more often than men but men and women experience sexual violence equally. The statistics for men may be further skewed because of what's legally defined as rape. Being made to penetrate, for example, isn't considered rape in a lot of US states, and in some other countries.

But yes, actual statistics are impossible to determine because sexual assault and rape are extremely under-reported crimes. Victim blaming feels like it's so all-pervasive sometimes that I can understand why. I did report my assault, but the experience was so gruelling, I can understand why others don't feel able to.

frimble3 · Sep 8, 2015

NinjaFingers said:
(snip)
One thing we have to do is address non-sexual consent. With toddlers. With little kids. Teach kids it's not okay to hug somebody if they don't want to - and don't hug kids who don't want to be hugged. The concept of no means no CAN be instilled early if we detach it from sex specifically.
(snip)
But we need to address consent.

We need to address the PUA culture of no means maybe.

And I think it DOES start with making clear to our children - yes, our children - that you don't touch without consent.

But do you explain to family and friends-of-family that 'you don't touch without consent' also applies to children in the family?
That when a child ducks away from a kiss from the grandmother that he only sees once a year, or won't hug the aunt who's loud and freaking him out, or the uncle who smells of beer and tobacco smoke, the child's feelings should be respected?

Or does the child absorb the lesson that he should be respectful and not give his latest potential best friend a big ol' hug, but that he's fair game to adults who seem to have the family seal of approval?

Amadan · Sep 9, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Yes, the book's been around for a while, and is pretty well debunked in scientific circles, as far as I know, but I've recently had the joy of running into some folks who are tossing those kinds of arguments out in web land. I think they're trying to refute the idea that rape is a crime of control and humiliation and explain why their novels are chock filled with male on female rape but no male on male.

Not saying it's a justification for making a fantasy novel Rapeapalooza, and I am deeply skeptical of most theories originating in evolutionary psychology, but I have never bought the theory that rape has nothing to do with lust or sexual desire. I just don't think that's born out by the real world, though obviously control and humiliation is often a factor. All the stats I have seen suggesting that male-on-male rape is common (or more common) includes prison rape in the numbers. Prison is such an artificial and distorting environment, I don't think it really says much about how normal people behave in a normal environment.

No doubt it does happen, even outside of prison, more often than most people believe. But prison rape and anecdotes about priests aren't really indicative.

nighttimer · Sep 9, 2015

I Am What I Hated When I Was Young.

Jesus, Chrissie Hynde is on a rampage! :rant:

She provoked fierce debate by saying it was her own fault for being sexually assaulted at 21.

And now Chrissie Hynde has waded into another contentious area – the overly sexualised nature of modern pop music.

In an obvious reference to scantily-clad stars such as Miley Cyrus and Rihanna, the former Pretenders lead singer branded them ‘sex workers’ for selling music by ‘bumping and grinding’ in their underwear. The 64-year-old also accused them of doing ‘a great deal of damage’ to women with their risque performances.

Miss Hynde launched the scathing attack during a tense interview on BBC’s Woman’s Hour yesterday. She suggested that today’s provocatively-dressed stars are sending the wrong message about how people should view sex.

Miss Hynde added: ‘I don’t think sexual assault is a gender issue as such, I think it’s very much it’s all around us now.

‘It’s provoked by this pornography culture, it’s provoked by pop stars who call themselves feminists. Maybe they’re feminists on behalf of prostitutes – but they are no feminists on behalf of music, if they are selling their music by bumping and grinding and wearing their underwear in videos.

‘That’s a kind of feminism – but, you know, you’re a sex worker is what you are.

I think it’s provocative in a way that has nothing to do with music. I would say those women are responsible for a great deal of damage.’

"Those women are responsible for a great deal of damage, Chrissie?" It's okay if you don't have much usage for Rhianna, Beyonce, Nikki Minaj, Miley Cyrus or whatever "sex-worker" you're ripping, but not naming, but do you realize you sound like a aging, cranky parent hating on today's music as much as your parents probably hated on yours?

When it comes to damage being done, Hynde's sense of irony is delicious even if the slut-shaming is obnoxious, but at least now I finally understand why she allows Rush Limbaugh to use the Pretenders' "My City Was Gone" on his show?

Birds of a misogynist feather? :Hug2:

Can't wait for the Ted Nugent duet!

Amadan · Sep 9, 2015

... I mean, I kind of agree with her about modern pop starlets, but I'm gonna go with my original assessment that this is a has-been rock star trying to provoke publicity to get back in the limelight for her book.

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 9, 2015

frimble3 said:
But do you explain to family and friends-of-family that 'you don't touch without consent' also applies to children in the family?
That when a child ducks away from a kiss from the grandmother that he only sees once a year, or won't hug the aunt who's loud and freaking him out, or the uncle who smells of beer and tobacco smoke, the child's feelings should be respected?

Or does the child absorb the lesson that he should be respectful and not give his latest potential best friend a big ol' hug, but that he's fair game to adults who seem to have the family seal of approval?

As far as I'm concerned, grown-ups need to grow the hell up about that stuff. Yes, they should be respecting the child's consent (or not) on issues of physical affection.

Viridian · Sep 9, 2015

Liosse de Velishaf said:
As far as I'm concerned, grown-ups need to grow the hell up about that stuff. Yes, they should be respecting the child's consent (or not) on issues of physical affection.

Yeah, they really do.

When I was five, I loved hugging my dog. My dog hated it. Since I was a five-year-old, I didn't care much what my dog thought, and proceeded to hug the shit out of it every opportunity I got no matter how much the dog squirmed and complained.

Adults should be old enough to know better.

Roxxsmom · Sep 9, 2015

Amadan said:
Not saying it's a justification for making a fantasy novel Rapeapalooza, and I am deeply skeptical of most theories originating in evolutionary psychology, but I have never bought the theory that rape has nothing to do with lust or sexual desire. I just don't think that's born out by the real world, though obviously control and humiliation is often a factor. All the stats I have seen suggesting that male-on-male rape is common (or more common) includes prison rape in the numbers. Prison is such an artificial and distorting environment, I don't think it really says much about how normal people behave in a normal environment.

No doubt it does happen, even outside of prison, more often than most people believe. But prison rape and anecdotes about priests aren't really indicative.

I suspect the motives for rape are more complex and varied (and influenced by circumstances and social context) than is often suggested. Even if it's usually about pain and humiliation, for some, sexual gratification is tied up with inflicting these things. And our culture does objectify women and it sends the message that if you're a "good man," attractive women will be at your disposal (and are what amounts to non people). But the way men regard women can vary with the circumstances. And when drugs and alcohol are involved, people can indeed do things they normally wouldn't without any intent of harm at all. Evidence is mounting that rape of males can be a strategy in torture and war situations too. There, I suspect pain and humiliation are indeed primary motives, though some people can find those things gratifying.

But none of this means it's the victims' fault or that the best solution to the problem is to toss up our hands and say, "That's just how men are" and to restrict the rights and freedoms of women for their own protection (or to blame women when men rape them).

I don't think anyone here has suggested that. I do wonder, though, if there is a subset of men who can be reached by education and as subset who will be laughing and high-fiving one another under the table while the seminar is going on. Overhearing the responses by some of my male peers back in college to these programs we had to attend suggest to me that for many it all falls on deaf ears.

And I'd still like to see more research on female sex offenders and rapists, because it would be interesting to compare the psychology, at least.

Amadan said:
... I mean, I kind of agree with her about modern pop starlets, but I'm gonna go with my original assessment that this is a has-been rock star trying to provoke publicity to get back in the limelight for her book.

I'm starting to wonder if this is it too. That and a conservative political agenda, which (for whatever reason) seems to be tied up with blaming women and other historically marginalized groups for everything wrong in society today.

nighttimer · Sep 9, 2015

Amadan said:
... I mean, I kind of agree with her about modern pop starlets, but I'm gonna go with my original assessment that this is a has-been rock star trying to provoke publicity to get back in the limelight for her book.

Roxxsmom said:
I'm starting to wonder if this is it too. That and a conservative political agenda, which (for whatever reason) seems to be tied up with blaming women and other historically marginalized groups for everything wrong in society today.

Not knowing for sure if Chrissie Hynde is a Dittohead, I won't speculate any further on her political leanings, but there does seem to be something to the suggestion she may purposefully be ginning up controversy to sell a book most non-fans would likely ignore.

Pretenders front woman Chrissie Hynde’s memoir, Reckless, didn’t officially go on sale until today, but Hynde has already been in the headlines for more than a week for inflammatory comments she made while discussing incidents chronicled in the book.

If you haven’t been following the story, the most upsetting of those incidents goes like this: A 21-year-old Hynde meets a bunch of Hells Angels while visiting a friend of a friend at the Cleveland City Jail.

Practically comatose on quaaludes, she agrees to accompany them alone to their house for “a party.” Once there, the bikers force her to strip, throw matches at her naked torso, and sexually assault her.

On its own, this would be plenty newsworthy. But the most shocking part of this shocking story is what the singer took away from it. “Now, let me assure you that, technically speaking, however you want to look at it, this was all my doing and I take full responsibility,” she writes. “You can’t fuck around with people, especially people who wear ‘I Heart Rape’ and ‘On Your Knees’ badges.”

And when asked about the episode in an interview with the Sunday Times last week, Hynde doubled down. “If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk, who else’s fault can it be?” she said. “If I’m walking around and I’m very modestly dressed and I’m keeping to myself and someone attacks me, then I’d say that’s his fault. . . . You know, if you don’t want to entice a rapist, don’t wear high heels so you can’t run from him. If you’re wearing something that says, ‘Come and fuck me,’ you’d better be good on your feet.”

Anyone who has read Hynde’s interviews over the years knows that the singer is provocative and outspoken. This is the same Hynde, after all, who in 1987 told People magazine that eating an animal was commensurate with eating one’s own child, and who in 2003 said onstage, “We deserve to get bombed. I hope the Muslims win!”

It’s also the same Hynde who, while promoting her 2014 solo album, Stockholm, called out 21st-century pop stars for overtly trading on their sexuality, then skirting responsibility for those choices by blaming their managers and labels. “The artist is in control of what they’re doing,” she told the Evening Standard. “You can always tell anyone to fuck off. No one ever pressurized me. I don’t know what the difference is. If they’re under pressure to get their kit off, maybe they should just be making porn films? Maybe they’re in the wrong game? I think if a girl walks onstage and picks up a guitar and starts playing like Jimi Hendrix, believe me, no one would be asking her to take her clothes off.”

Hynde’s views—both those above and as expressed in discussions of her own sexual assault—challenge our desire to claim her as a feminist (a term that she has, for the record, never fully embraced). Her recent statements have, at this point, been deconstructed from all angles by writers and survivors of sexual assault who are much better versed on the politics and psychology of rape than I am. But what struck me while reading Reckless is the way those comments reflect Hynde’s lifelong preoccupation with clothing and self-presentation, an obsession with a woman’s right to look and feel sexy.

First and foremost, it’s worth noting that what Hynde recently said and what she wrote in her memoir don’t really track: In the interview, Hynde suggests that women who dress provocatively telegraph their availability for assault. In the book, it’s not Hynde’s clothing that sends that message; it’s the rest of her behavior, her reckless willingness to throw herself in harm’s way, her impulsive decision to go home with a bunch of men who are themselves telegraphing their intentions (remember what those badges said?). Perhaps she was naive or too ’luded out to know her own mind, but Hynde chose to ignore the signs. The writing, she admits in the book, was on the wall.

There's something a bit "off" in Hynde berating today's scantly or barely clad pop tarts for relying on skin and Auto-Tune to cover up for their lack of musical chops while she gets stoned or drunk, something terrible happens and then she does it again and something terrible happens again. What's the lesson to be learned here? Don't do like Chrissie does, kids. Do what Chrissie says.

Women in rock who don't trade on their sexuality are usually considered odd ducks. You don't wanna flash your goodies to the guys? Whatsamatta, honey? You self-conscious about your boobs or sumpthin'?

Lots of singers like Joni Mitchell or Bonnie Raitt didn't want to be hot rock goddesses like Linda Ronstadt or a Tina Turner, but Linda and Tina knew the difference between being sexy and overtly sexual. If Hynde really wanted to pick a fight with someone who took using sex as a sales pitch to a lucrative extreme she should be beefing with Madonna.

Never been a big Pretenders fan, but I always respected Chrissie Hynde as a tough, uncompromising, genuine rock n' roller. But not so much now with this finger-wagging snottiness.

Amadan · Sep 9, 2015

Huh. I never heard about the "We deserve to be bombed" comment. That's probably the most offensive thing she's said, but she doesn't seem to want to trot that one out again for her book tour.

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 9, 2015

Just heard a former tennis star mention his good friend Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders on a live broadcast of the US Open, so she's not a totally dead celebrity yet. XD

Roxxsmom · Sep 9, 2015

Maybe she's gearing up for a political career...

Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders: "Rape victims should take responsibility"

Viridian

local good boy

Liosse de Velishaf

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

NinjaFingers

harmonyisarine

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Amadan

Liosse de Velishaf

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Anna_Hedley

Fuelled by tea and crumpets.

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Amadan

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

Amadan

Liosse de Velishaf

Viridian

local good boy

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

nighttimer

No Gods No Masters

Amadan

Liosse de Velishaf

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido