How weird is it to use italics for direct thoughts?

Donald Schneider · Aug 3, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
The advantage of using italics instead of quotes for direct thoughts is that it allows you to have untagged dialog and untagged thoughts. If you read most modern writers, a high percentage of dialog is "naked," that is, it doesn't contain a "he/she said" but is simply attributed by the new paragraph for new speaker rule or by associated actions. It's regarded as heavy and klunky to tag every line (this isn't new either--for instance, Jane Austen went on for pages with back and forth dialog with no tags. She relied on changing paragraph, context, and voice for speaker identification).

But if you're using quotes for thoughts as well as words spoken aloud, it would be impossible for the reader to know if something is spoken or thought unless you tag each and every thought (and possibly the spoken dialog too). Italics mean you don't need to tag thoughts at all.

Read Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy, for instance, and tell me if the way he handled Gloka's sardonic internal monologue of thoughts would have been as effective if he used quotes and tags for all of them instead of italics and no tags. Especially because the thoughts were often "in between" things he said. This isn't from the book, so it doesn't do it justice.

"Of course I'll do it." Because if I don't, you'll kill me. "When do you want it..." You bastard "...sir?"

But you can see the issue.

So my explanation for this is that narrative styles have changed and diversified, and many of the approaches one sees in modern fiction wouldn't work with Agatha Christie's method.

Thank you for that very thoughtful and illuminating discourse. I’m beginning to see the other side and am perhaps changing my mind. Please see my last response and thank you again.

BethS · Aug 4, 2015

Donald Schneider said:
this was simply change for change’s sake with little if any benefit.

As Roxxsmom has pointed out, it allows for much more flexibility with interspersing thoughts and dialogue, as well as for dropping speech and thought tags altogether. I'd say that's an advantage.

Donald Schneider · Aug 4, 2015

BethS said:
As Roxxsmom has pointed out, it allows for much more flexibility with interspersing thoughts and dialogue, as well as for dropping speech and thought tags altogether. I'd say that's an advantage.

Yes, i agree now. Thank you.

quicklime · Aug 4, 2015

I don't mind italics, but they're usually used sparingly....at least in anything I recall reading. I suppose you could invert things and have a character who lived so much in their head they had a ton of inner dialogue, but usually it seems an emphasis point:

there may be ten angry dialogue exchanges between a couple in a book, with him accusing her of cheating. There may be a few dozen lines like "she watched him, to see if she could catch the lie before he could bury it again, but his face held." But there would generally only be one or two "Of course he hadn't a clue where those panties came from. Of course. Same lies, different day." bits where the inner thought was explicitly spelled out, the rest are inferred....

Edit: It can also be used, again sparingly in most cases, to show a juxtaposition between dialogue or actions on the surface and the underlying thoughts:

She took his hand, gently. "I understand, I was being foolish to doubt you," she said as she leaned into his chest, holding him. Of course he hadn't a clue where those panties came from. Of course. Same lies, different day.

BethS · Aug 5, 2015

quicklime said:
She took his hand, gently. "I understand, I was being foolish to doubt you," she said as she leaned into his chest, holding him. Of course he hadn't a clue where those panties came from. Of course. Same lies, different day.

Except that the convention is the italicized portion would be in present tense, to show it's a directly rendered thought.

So...Of course he hasn't a clue... or he doesn't have a clue or he has no clue

Roxxsmom · Aug 5, 2015

quicklime said:
I don't mind italics, but they're usually used sparingly....at least in anything I recall reading. .

This too. Probably the most extensive use of them I can recall from a published novel is in the example I cited above. It worked for that particular character in that particular book because of his personality and situation. The author in question has not used the same technique in any other pov character of his that I've read.

I have noticed that it's fairly common for new writers who are sharing their first drafts to make very heavy use of the italics for direct thought technique, and rarely to good effect (in my opinion). I don't want to read sentence after sentence, let alone long paragraphs of your pov character's verbatim thought dialog*. Especially since (in limited third pov, at least) there are other ways to get the thoughts and opinions of the pov character out--namely by simply typing them as narrative.

*Unless it's completely riveting or very amusing.

Contrast:

She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. These definitely aren't mine. I'm going to kill the bastard.

vs.

She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. Definitely not hers. She was going to kill the bastard.

Cathy C · Aug 5, 2015

I work in close third paranormal, where both mental conversations occur and there's tons of internal thoughts. I use italics for internal thoughts and a different font (Arial Bold) for direct conversation. I will say that my editor will remove every instance of "she thought." Hates them. The italics takes the place of tag lines.

I would add that I agree that the text originally presented is head hopping. You'd only use the italics for thoughts if you're already in the POV of the woman. I read it several times and couldn't tell for sure. If it's her POV, you'll need to make it a little clearer. Perhaps "the man's face" instead of "his". That little bit shifts the POV directly to her.

JBVam · Aug 5, 2015

I am glad that this thread is here. I have been wondering the same exact thing about if I should use italics or the single quote for a character's thoughts. In going through the final edit of my book, I decided to go with the italics even though a single quote was suggested.

BethS · Aug 5, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. Definitely not hers. She was going to kill the bastard.

Or something in between--

She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. Definitely not hers. Bastard. I'll kill him.

Donald Schneider · Aug 5, 2015

BethS said:
Or something in between--

She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. Definitely not hers. Bastard. I'll kill him.

I like this. Good show!

Roxxsmom · Aug 5, 2015

BethS said:
Or something in between--

She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. Definitely not hers. Bastard. I'll kill him.

The possibilities are endless.

Corsairs · Aug 5, 2015

I use italics to express thought. It feels quite natural to me, and I have no problem with that method when I see it in other people's work. And I never use a "he/she thought" tag. Like Cathy said, the italics take the place of the tag.

BethS said:
She picked up the panties between thumb and forefinger. A pink thong. Definitely not hers. Bastard. I'll kill him.

That's exactly how I'd format it.

BethS · Aug 6, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
The possibilities are endless.

I know! Could play with this all day.

Brutal Mustang · Aug 6, 2015

Italics for thoughts are all but unnecessary. They're fine for a telepathic/cybernetic conversations, where exact words are said. Otherwise, they are a gimmick, which could yank the reader out of the story. MUCH better to use interior monologue (the character's thoughts sleekly woven into the narrative).

For example.

The raging bull charged towards Clara.

Oh God, she thought. I'm gonna die!

versus,

The raging bull charged towards Clara.

Oh God. She was gonna die!

The first example creates a tiny distance between reader and character. On the other hand, the reader is likely to blow through the second example, thoroughly immersed in the story, without remembering there is an author.

BethS · Aug 6, 2015

Brutal Mustang said:
Italics for thoughts are all but unnecessary. They're fine for a telepathic/cybernetic conversations, where exact words are said. Otherwise, they are a gimmick, which could yank the reader out of the story. MUCH better to use interior monologue (the character's thoughts sleekly woven into the narrative).

For example.

The raging bull charged towards Clara.

Oh God, she thought. I'm gonna die!

versus,

The raging bull charged towards Clara.

Oh God. She was gonna die!

The first example creates a tiny distance between reader and character. On the other hand, the reader is likely to blow through the second example, thoroughly immersed in the story, without remembering there is an author.

IMO, what creates the distance in that first one is the unnecessary use of the tag "she thought." But I'm not sure it works in that particular case to put it in the narrative either, because then it comes across as explaining the obvious.

Still, I agree that italicized thoughts can often be smoothly woven into the narrative rather than set off. Personally, I try to save the italics for pithy and possibly ironic mental commentary.

Sword&Shield · Aug 6, 2015

BethS said:
IMO, what creates the distance in that first one is the unnecessary use of the tag "she thought." But I'm not sure it works in that particular case to put it in the narrative, because then it comes across as explaining the obvious.

Still, I agree that italicized thoughts can often be smoothly woven into the narrative rather than set off. Personally, I try to save the italics for pithy and possibly ironic mental commentary.

Ok, I was starting to get concerned. :Hug2:

I never use italics. I just weave the internal thoughts into the narrative. I was beginning to think that was wrong (I'm not very confident in my writing prowess!). Italics feel like a direct evacuation route out of a story for me. When I read the font change it sets off a trigger, "oh yeah- I'm reading a book". I don't want to be pulled out of the story. I want to get lost in it. It is the same way with dialogue attributions. I still feel "she said" is stronger than most because it is invisible to me as a reader. Anything to keep from getting pulled out of the story makes it a much better reading experience.

BethS · Aug 6, 2015

Sword&Shield said:
I never use italics. I just weave the internal thoughts into the narrative. I was beginning to think that was wrong (I'm not very confident in my writing prowess!).

There is no right or wrong to this. There's only whether it works or not. You should do what you feel is right for your story and your style.

CJMockingbird · Aug 6, 2015

I use italics, but usually only for a sentence or two. Having an entire paragraph like that would be too hard on the eyes. I also like to use "he/she said", but typically just to get by to the reader who is talking in a long conversation. I'm a little unusual and that dialogue is my strong point and so I use it more than most. Sometimes I'll have half a page of it, but I'll be damn sure you know whose talking and that it's interesting, unless I want to leave a certain line ambiguous for the reader (as in, say, I have three girls talking, I'll leave it up to the reader to decide which of the remaining two said it).

JBVam · Aug 6, 2015

BethS said:
There is no right or wrong to this. There's only whether it works or not. You should do what you feel is right for your story and your style.

I agree with this all the way. I think we all have different styles of writing and what works for one writer doesn't necessary work for the other. I had two different editors provide two different ways of writing a characters thoughts for the same book. I, being the one who ultimatly had the last say so, went with what I thought flowed better for me.....which is Italics. LOL

Happy writing everyone!

Brutal Mustang · Aug 6, 2015

BethS said:
Personally, I try to save the italics for pithy and possibly ironic mental commentary.

Consistency is key. What I don't get is why anyone would use nice, unobtrusive interior monologue throughout their novel, and then, boom, out of the blue, italics. It's jarring. And kinda sloppy. Especially since, if the story is written in third person, there is a jump from third to first person.

Now a good, decent use for italics would be something like this:

Sam floated toward us, from the gravity lift.

"Hey, Sam," I asked using my cybernetics. "How'd it go?"

"Terrible. Captain's sending us back to Earth."

"Shit."

"Hey guys!" Kayla said. "You're being rude. No implants here."

Sam furrowed his brow. "Sorry, Kayla. We're going back to Earth."

She huffed. "Bummer."

In an instance like this, it's important for the reader to know what's being said cybernetically/telepathically and what's being said aloud.

Basically, italics are great for exact unspoken words, like dialogue between characters. Thoughts to the character's self don't need exact. 'She hated it', is less obtrusive than suddenly breaking into first from third and saying, 'I hate it'.

msza45 · Aug 15, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
It's the norm, but should only be used rarely, and with important direct thoughts. Of course, all direct thoughts should be truly important, or there's no reason to write it as a direct thought.

Just looking for clarification on a couple things. If italics should be used rarely, for important direct thoughts, does that mean other direct thoughts can/should be delivered without italics?

Also, should you not use direct thoughts like this in omni? My impression was that omni can look identical to close third when it wants to.

BethS · Aug 16, 2015

Brutal Mustang said:
. 'She hated it', is less obtrusive than suddenly breaking into first from third and saying, 'I hate it'.

Except that "she hated it" can come across as explanation (telling), whereas I hate it conveys an emotional reaction. It's the raw, unfiltered thought. In impact, there's a world of difference between the two.

BethS · Aug 16, 2015

msza45 said:
Just looking for clarification on a couple things. If italics should be used rarely, for important direct thoughts, does that mean other direct thoughts can/should be delivered without italics?

Also, should you not use direct thoughts like this in omni? My impression was that omni can look identical to close third when it wants to.

I know you were asking JAR, but here's my opinion, fwiw. Reserve italics for thoughts that need to be conveyed directly (first-person) for greater impact. All other thoughts are written in the third-person and woven into the narrative as internal monologue.

In omniscient, thought tags can be used to maintain the characteristic distance and voice of the omniscient narrator.

A couple rough, very much off-the-cuff examples:

Third-person limited--

The shoe was all sleek cold curves with a heel like an icicle. A shimmering soap bubble of a shoe, fragile and sexy. She held her breath, poked her toes in, slid her foot home. Grinned. Hot damn. Cinderella is so going to hate me.

Omniscient--

When she saw the glass slipper, she fell in love. It whispered sweet promises to her, of a long, long life of being catered to by servants and dressmakers, adored by peasants and courtiers, and made love to by the handsomest man in the kingdom.

She thrust out her foot to the kneeling servant, who took one look at the slim, graceful appendage and felt a sudden and deep foreboding. But he wasn't paid to prophesy doom, so he obediently slipped the slipper on.

It was a perfect fit. Esmerelda pointed her toe, admiring the shimmering cut of the glass and enjoying the way the servant shrank back from the dangerous point of the ice-pick heel. She laughed. Cinderella, she thought, is going to hate me forever.

***

Rough, as I said, and omniscient is not my forte. Also, the italics in the second example are probably optional. But maybe you can see the difference between the two.

dondomat · Aug 16, 2015

...One can also swoop in and out of deep POV in omni, if one was cloned from Tolstoy

Concerning italics for thoughts (isn't that a nice brooding award-winning title: "Italics for Thoughts, a tremendous literary sensation by Don Domatio!"), I've seen Dan Brown do it, I've seen William Meikle do it. Mr. Brown has long since retired into a gold-plated castle on a platinum-plated asteroid, but one could do worse than purchase a book or five by Mr. Meikle and study the techniques. One of the top 10 writers hanging out on Absolute Write, IMO, with simple, effective writing, various POV experiments, and the good old italics for thoughts too. He rarely chimes in to give actual writing advice, in my experience, but his books and stories are all the advice one needs, in the commercial adventure genres.

Fuchsia Groan · Aug 16, 2015

I used to avoid italics for thoughts. Then I started writing first person, present tense. I didn't realize just how many thoughts I was italicizing until the copy editor working on my book pointed out that italicized thoughts go against the publisher's house style (I suspect this is just for first person, but I don't know.) Nonetheless, she and the editor thought my italics should stay, because they essentially convey when my narrator is having an internal dialogue with herself as opposed to narrating her actions. My narrators tend to have a lot of conflicting voices/motivations in their head, and italics can be a way to set off a voice that suddenly emerges in opposition to the dominant one.

I'm going to be more aware I'm doing this in future works, and make sure I really need it. I've never been asked to change the italics to underlining, but I use TNR rather than Courier.

In close third, I prefer free indirect discourse to quoting thoughts directly. That's when you stay in third person while making it very clear this is the character's view and not an objective narrator's: "Everybody at this party hated her. They were probably all planning witty, cutting remarks to make about her after she left."

How weird is it to use italics for direct thoughts?

Donald Schneider

BethS

Donald Schneider

quicklime

all out of fucks to give

BethS

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

JBVam

BethS

Donald Schneider

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Corsairs

Saying it twice for truth

BethS

Brutal Mustang

Loves interplanetary chaos.

BethS

Sword&Shield

BethS

CJMockingbird

JBVam

Brutal Mustang

Loves interplanetary chaos.

msza45

New Fish; Stuck on the Dang Hook

BethS

BethS

dondomat

Fuchsia Groan

Becoming a laptop-human hybrid