Does anyone actually LIKE the info-dump?

I'm rereading Cinda Chima's Seven Realms series (because she's writing a new one, yay!), and I'm noticing how she conveys world building and other information in scenes with some tension. For instance, I just read a scene where Raisa (and the reader) learn of the plight of the Waterwalkers when the Waterwalkers' leader holds Raisa's party captive and threatens to kill them. Raisa actually argues about what a good ruler would do (something for her own character arc) and both the world building and the philosophy of governing are riveting because they happen in this threatening situation. The Waterwalkers ultimately just let them go, saying you now owe us a debt, which promises future complications too. That struck me as very well done.

dawinsor your description reminds me of an article I found today, Four Tips for Fixing the Infamous Infodump. Maybe it will help.

I think like many writing "don'ts", it depends a lot on how it's done, the style of the story, and how intentional it is. Of course, some people will simply dislike an exposition-heavy story no matter what. And I think it's definitely the case that exposition-heavy stories are less in vogue now than they were in the past. But the main problem with info-dumps is that writers often use them because it's the only way they can think to convey information that they feel is important. Often, there better, less obtrusive ways of working this info into the story. And sometimes the information isn't actually as important as the writer thinks.

But there are times when it works when you know what you're doing and are doing it intentionally, and the information serves a bigger purpose (like demonstrating something about the character) than just conveying information in a lazy way.

I read SFF and Historical Fiction of various types, genres in which writers need to build entire worlds whether past, imagined, or future. And no, I don't like when the writer info dumps as a reader, nor do I think it nessecary for them to do it as a fellow writer. If the information is vital or not vital to plot but enhances the story, then they should be able to find a way to incorperate it into the story itself. By the reactions of characters is a major way or by using that bit in later book if they're writing a series.

It seems to me that in some way, what you are doing is confusing verbosity and worldbuilding with info-dumping. And they're far from the same, and something even Victorians weren't fans of. Verbosity isn't bad as long as something is interesting, nor is heavy worldbuilding as long as it fits the story. Read Time Machine, something that wouldn't have been as long as it is if written today. The part where the Time Traveler is describing the way in which his machine works to some dinner guests is interesting. Extremely interesting if I'm being honest, and actually needed for the story. It works because the story would loose something without it.

As for disrespect: As both a reader and a person, I have a right to choose the criteria by which I decide I respect someone else. Let's take quicklime's example of Jefferson. I respect his inteligence, I respect that the man saw America as a religious and cultural melting pot it was and would become. But at the same time, the man's reasons for opposing slavery? Those were just plain racist for all his advancements in other areas, and I can't in good conscience respect those views. I refuse to respect those views when there were people like Abigail Adams around who were products of the same time and yet also much less racist than him. Can't and won't do it. Sorry if that offends, but that's what it is.

And I treat modern righters in much the same way, if I don't like them as people or find their work borning I will say so. They're not owed my money and respect anymore than I'm owed theirs.

Roxxsmom said:

pretty much every book I've read violates things that are on those agent "hate" lists, and they do it early and often.

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Truth.

Like many here, I quite appreciate well-written description. This is why so much of writing a good book is in the execution. Some people can info-dump. Some do, but probably shouldn't. There's an amazing inverse correlation between those who think they can and those who can actually do it.

A lot of info-dumping depends on how it's defined, too. As an academic term for any passage that conveys info about a world in SF, they're fine. In a writing sense, it refers to long passages of expositional worldbuilding.

Adversary said:

One of my creations requires a bit of introduction, and as creative as I think I'm being, its really proving difficult to avoid that block of text.

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Then you have to find a way to make that wall of text interesting. Voice, diction, pacing, and paragraphing are all ways to achieve it with writing craft. (Be careful of subordinate paragraphs--make sure each introduces and wraps up a single idea.) Characters, movement, present action, and clear stakes are all storytelling techniques to mitigate info-dumps. That's why people say to weave the info into existing scenes. Don't just drop info. It's not the info part of the word that's a problem--it's the dump. Make it part of some event. If it's not part of some event, ask yourself honestly if it's relevant to the story or if it's documentation. Nobody reads documentation. The programmers I write documentation for don't even read the documentation. There is no disrespect in a reader not reading something. It means writer done goofed, for that reader anyway.

An awful lot of new writers say their story "requires" an info-dump. I have almost never seen this to be the case. I write highly abstract secondary world fantasy with animal characters, highly political plots, and bizarre magic systems. I've yet to find an info-dump of mine I couldn't write into a scene better. If your reader is likely to ask what something is, this is the time to provide an answer--not before. After you have their attention and interest in that subject. Anything else is effectively a spoiler, setting up what's going to happen so the reader will understand. Of course part of this is fashion, but set-up like that breaks tension and spoils immersion. It's sloppy writing, period. A well-written info-dump engages me first, then moves the story forward by providing information.

Adversary said:

This might seem a tad moot, I dont know, but on TV shows I've liked, or I thought were done well, many had their own info-dumps, so to speak. That first episode 10-20 minute dialogue that introduces a world or characters. You see it in some movies as well, though thats rarer as today it seems far more important to enthrall the viewer with action or drama as quick as possible.

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Visual media are different. Mostly, take note of what you're seeing during those exposition scenes. Done well (and there are some that aren't), there is action or at least story movement throughout. Books do not have the luxury of some gorgeous actor showing up to steal the camera while someone like Michael Caine explains what's going on.

Even in film/TV, info-dumps are dangerous. Ask any screenwriter about exposition. Actually, better idea: ask any director about screenwriters who use too much exposition.

Goodness, 4 pages of information? Is this a prologue or something? And there's no action or dialogue?

The narration and information better be damn good or interesting to keep me reading after the first page or two, lol....

Adversary said:

You know... that is probably it on the nose. I'm like that. I'm FAR more suited to say, making a movie, or even a graphic novel. I'm like that with character descriptions too... I see a certain, very specific face/body/attire, and thats what I want others to see. I DO want to write, but I will readily admit I'm in the wrong business here. What I have to decide is whether this is something I want to remedy (the writing part, not the changing business part), or something that I want to explore and try and make work (where most seem to admit, most dont, or dont try to).

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For me, anyway, one of the greatest things about books is that they are shared creations. I create certain details but the reader gets to keep his or her own impression, too. You'd be surprised how close those two things often are: when I read Harry Potter (before the movie came out) I pictured Hermione pretty much exactly the same way Emma Watson played her. Harry, less so, though the movies got closer to my impression as he aged.

Obviously I can't speak to your own motivations or priorities in writing or reading and that's as it should be. I would say that there is great power in letting go of control, though. This may be true of life as well as writing. It's often the hardest thing to do and a rare thing to see, but as writer you are a sort of leader. You lead by example. You create what you want to create and people will follow that not because you told them to but because that's how they see themselves. Create the character as you see him or her, and try yielding that control.

Art is another outlet for this, of course. But be warned that even artists, at least professional ones, often lose some of that control as well. Screenwriters and directors have to work with actors and a good actor brings a huge amount of life to the character. It's a shared creation. A game designer or artist literally shares the character with the player, who can take of the Cloak of Power and put on the Robe of Nuance if she wants. Creative control is often an illusion--at the professional level it's more about the craft you can exert with less and less control. Even with books, which are often seen by those working in other media as a form allowing very great authorial control, often experiment with restrictive styles and forms in order to open up new ways of interpreting a story or text.

Adversary said:

I wish I hadn't started this thing in my Mac's default Text-Edit app. Far as I've seen, there's no way to quantify anything I've done, like word-counts, page-counts, chapters, etc. In fact, its a rather unworkable format altogether. Heh... this should illustrate my tenacity, as so far its been a pain in the ass to use. I'll be getting different writing software pretty quick here.

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Side note: I found a novel-writing program last time I did NaNoWriMo, Scrivener, and it changed my writing LIFE. I'd highly recommend it, if you're not sure where to look for writing software, there's a recommendation.

As for the four-page narrative, why not play around with some of the options you've got swirling in your head? Start a new document, try a new beginning that incorporates the opening narrative in bits in pieces, introducing the characters dynamically instead of through narrative, and discussing the recent history in terms of current stakes. If you don't like it, you haven't lost anything from the original draft. Try another one. If none of them work for you, then it's ultimately your story. Maybe your story does start like that, some writers can do it because they do it well. But don't assume you're the exception to the rule--try some things out, too, experiment. You might find something you fall in love with. ^^

I've never yet seen the back-cover description of a book that tried to entice a reader with promises of 'Includes a detailed description of the socio-political organization of the realm' or 'Complete history of (the country) and surrounding nations'. These do not generally seem to be selling points.
And, yes, the modern reader may not have the time or attention span of the readers of old, but, thanks to movies and TV, we have a lot more visual information than the pre-movie and TV generations. You don't have to exactly spell out what your T-Rex looks like, or describe a triceratops's neck frill. We've seen enough pictures of far-away places that if you sketch in 'tropical island' or 'old Middle-Eastern city', we can fill in the details for ourselves. Does it really matter that we understand exactly what the armour looks like? (Maybe it does, maybe stabbing someone through a gap in the armour is a plot-point, but, as for visuals, just a general idea of the look of the thing is good enough.)

The operative word here is "dump".

Information is generally a good thing. The reader wants to know about this marvelous world, these wonderful characters, this intriguing story. To get them there you need to give them a certain amount of information. What time it is, what season, what year. Who this person is and what they want.

All that is good information. The reader needs to know these things. But that doesn't mean that we should heap the information onto them in one indigestible lump.

It's a bit like going on a guided tour of some fabulous building, let's say the Palace of Versailles. Your coach arrives at the gate. You are itching to get inside and see all the fantastic architecture and sculptures and stuff. But you have to spend the first hour standing outside the gates because your tour guide insists on giving an hour long lecture about the Palace's history, where the fire exits are ...

And all you want to do is just to get on with the tour. Tell me stuff as and when I need to know it. I want an experience not a lecture.

I am always baffled (and a little miffed) when people refer to "today's reader" or "the modern reader." There simply is no such thing. Readers today are as diverse as ever.

The info-dump is an inglorious deposition of exposition as awkwardly and as baldly as possible. This is different from world-building or exposition, which are necessary to a story (particularly speculative ones). Virtually no story can exist without exposition, at least no story that works. No story can grab the imagination if world-building is neglected. What the writer needs to avoid is something that stops the story itself cold while a professor steps to the podium to explain the history of the kingdom, or the nature of the magic system.

Like most of writing, it's all in the execution. Well-done exposition is enjoyable, because it's interesting, provocative to the imagination, and fits into the rest of the story.

You'd have to say which books, and where the info dump is. A ton of information, even ten pages worth, is not automatically an info dump. One paragraph of information done poorly is an info dump

Some readers like reading comic books, some only care about action scenes, and think everything else should be cut, and some like reading long novels with lush description and pages and pages of info. Try reading Ton Clancy without encountering thousands of words on info all in a lump. And hundreds of thousands of readers loved it. I'm one of them. A good bit of hard SF is the same way.

So, yes, many readers like info dumps.

"Info-dump" by definition means it's an awkward, out of place clump of mess. But personally, yes, I do enjoy reading terrible writing very much so I am fond of writing that has plenty of info-dumps. The terribleness makes it hilarious. (Except when I was the one who wrote it).

I'm sorry, Fruitbat. Would you give me that info again? I must've dozed off.

For word count, I would suggest using another writing software, like Scrivener, or you know, Microsoft Word. (I don't know what device you're using: PC, Mac, Phone, Kindle, Ipad, etc?) There are several writing software that has word count, so yeah, if you want to know word count, you're going to have to find another software.

If you feel your infodump is written well, then I wouldn't consider it infodumping, but a well-done exposition and world-building.

So, if you feel it's well-done, then go include it.

Goid luck on whatever you do.

Adversary said:

Thats where I'm headed. I've pored over it and it looks perfect. There is a 30-day free trial and I'll hit that up. I just dont want to start that until I have a bit more free time. I haven't been able to write much at all the last couple weeks, and likely not for another two the way work is going. But yeah... thats the plan. Got the Itunes card sitting right here to pay for it...

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So, just FYI, it's a 30 day use trial, meaning if you use it one day, and then two weeks later use it another day, that counts as only 2 days of your 30 day trial. Just another way for Scrivener to be awesome.

My general commentary about Scrivener is that it is a $40 piece of software that I would pay $500 for. I wouldn't have been able to write my current book without it. I started using it two years ago and honestly with time, my enthusiasm has grown into an obsession. So, if you have any questions...

One of my favorite parts of A Song of Ice and Fire was Theon's return home. "There was no safe anchorage at Pyke," it begins. This does a few things. It gives a strong impression of the forbidding nature of the geography. It demands an explanation of Theon's nostalgic reasons for sailing this impractical course. And it provides an excuse for a page or two of description that reads like the voice-over of a travel documentary.

So, yeah, you can have info-dumps, but make them more than just beautiful description. Make them say something about character and culture. After those few pages, I knew more about Theon and the Iron Islands than I learned in the whole first book.

Adversary said:

I wish I hadn't started this thing in my Mac's default Text-Edit app. Far as I've seen, there's no way to quantify anything I've done, like word-counts, page-counts, chapters, etc.

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Type "Terminal" in the searchbox of Finder. Navigate to your file. Type "wc <filename>". One of the numbers is the number of letters, the next smaller is the number of words, and the smallest is the number of line breaks (which you can correlate to number of paragraphs if you use line breaks only between paragraphs).

A page is about 250 words. I'm not sure about a chapter; that's one I've been trying to feel out myself.

Adversary said:

There seems quite a distaste for the introductory info-dump. Now, I am not really talking about the ones that are done badly, though really, how is starting off a book with a badly written/placed info-dump any different from just a bad first couple of chapters in general?
Couple of chapters! If there's that much of a dump - let me educate you because I learned this and I want to pass it on in one enormous chunk instead of weaving it into the story - then, yeah, I hate it and won't even bother with the book at all. There's a reason why writers are encouraged to begin with a hook, something to pull in the reader and keep them engaged. A block of info dumping text won't do that. I need STORY first, info woven in THROUGH story.
This will probably offend some, but I think some here really dont have a lot of respect for writers (or maybe they're just jaded?). How can you buy a book, that presumably, you liked the look/sound/reviews of, and then disrespect the author by skipping or skimming ANY part of the book?
I don't even consider such a thing as readers' respect. I never set out to write a story hoping readers will have respect enough for me to read the boring bits because I wanted to write the boring bits. I write to entertain and if I don't entertain then that's my fault and I haven't done my job properly. If you pass on information with a view to entertaining your reader then they'll likely absorb it without really noticing what you've done.
I have noticed that today people seem far less patient than they were say, 25 years ago.
Oh definitely. We're less patient about everything, so reading is the same. There are far and away more ways to be entertained today than there were several years ago.
My favorite author, H.P. Lovecraft, was a master of this, in a way, and it doesn't seem to turn people off his works.
Lovecraft's imaginary worlds were a big part of his story and his descriptions were always fascinating. I usually got the feeling he was recording his dreams - those odd, macabre tales that sprang from his tormenting night gaunts.

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Sprinkle opinion with salt. Probably lots of it.