Getting past whether or not orientation is innate

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Roxxsmom

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This article is a week old, but I just ran across it.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-is-fluid-its-time-to-get-past-born-this-way/

I thought the discussion of multiple axes for one's sexuality, and about sexuality as something that may well be fluid for some people are interesting. I've long since wondered about this, since it's not unreasonable to assume that environmental factors could influence orientation in at least some cases, and in fact, it does seems to fall on a continuum with many people identifying as bisexual. The part about the increase in the number of people who identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual as they've been de-stigmatized is also interesting.

I completely agree with her main point. It doesn't matter in the end. Same-sex relationships deserve the same rights, privileges and protections under the law as opposite-sex ones regardless of the underlying reason for one's orientation or whether or not a given individual could be happy in a different kind of relationship or not, and I'm very glad our society is making strides in that direction.

But I'm wondering whether this article could be seen as problematic or hurtful or not, or if it's something that could be twisted and used by people of malign intent.
 

Roxxsmom

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Though many of the court decisions expanding rights have been based on the idea that orientation is innate and immutable.

Clearly for many it is immutable, regardless of how orientation arises, and discussions of choice are going to be hurtful to people when they've struggled to conform to what society wanted and suffered terribly for it. I just hope that some day the issues of choice becomes a non issue legally, the same way it is for religion and things that are clearly far less biological than sexuality, yet are still protected.

The issue of bisexuality seems to get ignored a lot in these discussions. I have a couple of female friends from college who are bisexual who ended up married to men. As far as many people who didn't know them when they were in relationships with women, they're "straight." But they're not.

One could say they "chose" this, and of course statistically, it's probably easier to bump into opposite-sex partner who is emotionally compatible in other ways. But one doesn't necessarily choose who one loves at a given point in their life, and the fact that a person could possibly have met someone of the a different gender instead doesn't mean they should or shouldn't have.

So I wonder if the rising percentage of people who identify as gay, lesbian and bisexual, and the higher numbers of people living in same-sex relationships, might be in part because more bisexual people feel free to admit to and explore that facet of themselves and to pursue attractions they have to people of their own gender when they occur.

Of course, this is what the "family values" crowd feared all along, though my reaction to that objection (if it's de-stigmatized, more people will do it) has always been, "So what?"
 
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Layla Nahar

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Somewhat relevant to this conversation - has anybody seen the advice column where a mother writes that her 16 year old son had recently become gay and that he's doing it to embarrass her etc & she says something like 'I know it's a choice, but how can I prove it to my son?' To which the advice lady answers 'That's easy. You can prove it to him by being gay for year yourself.'
 

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I know there has been political value to the idea of orientation being innate, but I do think there's too much focus on it, when what I'd love to see us focusing on is "so what?" and/or "why is it your business?"

I mean, even if sexual orientation is innate for most people, maybe there are some for whom it isn't. Or maybe there are some people whose innate orientation is ambiguous and their presentation changes through time, or some people who don't fit tidily into any of the orientation boxes, or whatever other infinite possibilities humanity can dream up when it comes to sexuality. And all of these people, unless they're hurting someone else, deserve respect and privacy and equality, regardless of why they are the way they are.

There's something vaguely homophobic about the focus on being gay from birth, sometimes - almost as if it's an excuse. "Well, I'm gay, but it's not my fault!" Surely we can move toward "Yes, I'm gay, and it's not a fault."
 

DancingMaenid

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I don't really feel like innateness is inherently at odds with fluidity. I think it's fairly rare for someone to go from being 100% straight to 100% gay (or vice versa). Usually when people speak of fluidity, it has to do with bisexuality and people who fall somewhere between the extremes of the Kinsey scale. A lot of people are capable of feeling attraction for more than one sex/gender, but may find that their preferences change a little with age and experience. I'm bisexual, and that's certainly been the case for me.

That said, I'm all for de-emphasizing the "born this way" rhetoric. I don't think it should be necessary to gain us rights (after all, the U.S. has protections against religious-based discrimination, and religion is not an unchangeable or inborn characteristic). And I think the emphasis on being born queer puts a lot of pressure on people who are figuring out their sexuality. I still have moments when I wonder if I somehow "conditioned" myself to like women, because I was interested in boys as a child but didn't start finding girls attractive until I reached puberty. When it comes down to it, I think my sexual orientation is innate, but I also don't think it would be such a horrible thing if I somehow taught myself to like women.
 
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buz

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This article is a week old, but I just ran across it.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-is-fluid-its-time-to-get-past-born-this-way/

But I'm wondering whether this article could be seen as problematic or hurtful or not, or if it's something that could be twisted and used by people of malign intent.

Everything can be twisted for malign intent :)

But that doesn't mean the originals should be discarded.

I sort of have the opinion that the majority of everything we are is the result of gene-environment interaction, not one or the other, and also that what we are is fluid by nature, since the self isn't a monolithic kernel sitting inside our skulls. Which is not to say that "permanent" states or traits can't form, only, I think they carry over from one state to another, rather than staying in the same place, and so on and blah blah.

But even if everything I think is bullshit, the article is right. "It's not my fault" shouldn't have to be a response to "you are gay."
 

StormChord

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No one should have to explain why they are oriented a certain way. It's a meaningless question, and I think the sooner we realize that the happier we'll all be.
 

J.S.F.

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I'd have to agree with the it-doesn't-matter-if-it-is-or-isn't crowd. Regardless of which orientation you follow, whether it's nature or nurture, rights are rights and should be accorded as such. In the long run, orientation is only a very small part of the sum total that makes up a person. Judge others--if you feel the need to do so--on their character, not how they identify.
 
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