Editing of poems

Someone really needs to teach Jesus how to eat popcorn.



Every poet needs a Virgil.

Wordsworth had Coleridge; Tennyson had Arthur Hallam; and Edward Thomas had Robert Frost. However, the best-preserved example of one poet editing another is Ezra Pound’s work on TS Eliot’s The Waste Land. The poem’s manuscript, first published in 1971 and now available on a snazzy iPad app, shows Pound’s boldness. On the first page of the second part, “A Game of Chess”, he wrote disapprovingly: “Too tum-pum at a stretch”; further down he complains a line is “too penty” – too regular a pentameter. Eliot redrafted the lines until he got an “OK” in the margin. Eliot acknowledged his friend’s role when he dedicated the 1925 edition to Pound, calling him Il miglior fabbro or “the better craftsman” – a phrase from Dante.

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Kylabelle said:

Someone really needs to teach Jesus how to eat popcorn.

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it keeps falling through the hole in his hand.

Kylabelle said:

Someone really needs to teach Jesus how to eat popcorn.

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William Haskins said:

it keeps falling through the hole in his hand.

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Maybe if the kernels were wafer thin?


And then there's the Poetry Critique Forum, right here on AW!!!

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?85-Poetry-Critique

yep. they'll edit you up something fierce...

Hmmm. Has anyone here had a publisher suggest changes to a poem, or just make changes without asking?

Hmm.

Well. Yes. Poems do need editing, like any other writing. Just as a novelist would revise and edit a manuscript several times before submitting to a publisher or agent.

Most poets edit their poems for themselves, or share them here in the critique forum, but I suppose you already knew that.

If you want a professional to edit for you, I'd say good luck with that. I have not ever heard of someone who made a career out of editing poetry unless the editor is involved in the publication, so already under contract, and not before, to ready it for submission.

so there's your answer.

As for William's picture. It had more to do with what he thought of the posts that followed would be, and less to do with your question. No need to bend out of shape. But of course if you'd like to ask in other web communities about professional poetry editors, be my guest.I imagine you'll get the same (or similar) answers.

The popcorn eating didn't really start until you took offense to it, so I'd say that was an insightful prediction.

I happen to think Kyla's input was extra interesting. and Magdalen's is what I was going to say. You want editing, post your poems in the crit forum. You'll get suggestions for improvement.



But whatever. Now I want popcorn.

poetinahat said:

Hmmm. Has anyone here had a publisher suggest changes to a poem, or just make changes without asking?

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I've only heard of suggested changes, when a publisher has already contracted the work. The actual edits are usually the poet's to make, AFAIK.

alaktas said:

Such shattering insight. This forum has become pathetic. So much for newbies looking to acquire helpful information on writing. Might as well go to another writer's forum where they don't belittle others looking to learn the ins and outs of professional writing.

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it wasn't in any way seeking to belittle you.

it was an implied "this oughta be good" sentiment. while i realize it wasn't very helpful, others better than me have weighed in and have already contributed valuable insights with, no doubt, more to come.

just because i'm pathetic doesn't mean the forum is, so please don't judge it by my behavior.

welcome to the forum and best wishes on your development as a poet.

^ +1.

alaktas, you have to make allowances for (some of) us poets. We tend to play in unexpected directions. Like William responding to future posts in advance, f'rinstance.

alaktas said:

Such shattering insight. This forum has become pathetic. So much for newbies looking to acquire helpful information on writing. Might as well go to another writer's forum where they don't belittle others looking to learn the ins and outs of professional writing.

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Your first mistake was coming to a poetry forum to talk about professional writing. Oops.

You have twenty-five posts since you joined in May. What do you know about "what this forum has become"? Either you used to be here under another name (and why a different one now?), you've been lurking (and haven't picked up anything about how lucrative poetry is), or you don't have any idea of the forum's evolution.

Your question did sound silly at first. That's okay - questions are great. On reflection, I thought it raised a valuable discussion topic, hence my earlier post.

But the drama is probably unmerited. I hope you stick around and continue to get involved, but go or stay as you wish.

it was in fun, William. It's fine.

Alaktas, we have fun here, but sometimes our general discussions get rather interesting.

super. you're a peach.

alaktas said:

Hello,

This might sound a bit like a silly question, but when someone finishes writing a poem, does the poem need to be edited? Much like an author who writes a novel has his/her novel edited..

If the answer is yes, who do you send your poem to for editing? I'm guessing some kind of literary professional who specifically handles poetry?

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Why wouldn't a poem need editing in order to shine it's best? Poetry is a craft, just like writing short stories and novels is a craft.

If you're asking if their freelance editiors that edit poetry? Then I'm again going to say, sure there's freelance editors who take poetry. But most novelists and short story writers edit their work themselves with the help of betas and agents instead of paying for someone to make the edits for them. Which isn't what an editor of any sort with professional integrety does. They tend to make notes, telling the writer what needs to be changed, but they don't choose the how it is changed. That is up to the wroter to do and not the editor. And as I mentioned before, poetry isn't much different in that respect. The person editing suggests something needs changing and the writer is the one to decide how.

Are you perhapse talking about copy editing and not content enditing?

i will acknowledge i am in the minority, but i believe poems should only be edited by the poet, if then.

I agree, even though I posted that article link (which I found extremely interesting by the way.)

William Haskins said:

i will acknowledge i am in the minority, but i believe poems should only be edited by the poet, if then.

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MacAllister said:

It's an interesting situation. Certainly, Eliot's The Wasteland wouldn't be what it is without Ezra Pound's tampering.

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I think there's quite a difference between a trusted fellow poet, giving advice about a volume of poetry and allowing an editor to red-pen your beauties. Though, I wouldn't argue that iron sharpened iron, in the case of Pound & Eliot, and we are all the better for it. I'm sure Eliot had a soft spot for Pound's advice, given the success it yielded.

But in general, I'm with William.

So the question arises, is the edited poem still the original poets? Shouldn't the one editing be considered a co-poet? Pointing out obvious errors of grammar (yuk?) or spelling is one thing, offering new ways to say a thing is another.

When does the poem cease to be the original poets?

alaktas said:

Such shattering insight. This forum has become pathetic. So much for newbies looking to acquire helpful information on writing. Might as well go to another writer's forum where they don't belittle others looking to learn the ins and outs of professional writing.

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Now you've gone and hurt William's feelings.



I'm with William on the editing thing. I appreciate suggestions, and have incorporated some on occasion, but I really don't think someone else could "edit" my poems.

Eta:

Personally, I'd far rather my poem go unpublished than make changes to it that I didn't feel were exactly right. I select every word with a great deal of thought -- it is rare that I feel someone else hit it on the nose better than I did. When I'm on the fence about something specific, I'll usually ask for input on that specific issue.

That said, I'm not looking to make money on my poetry. I'm looking to capture an emotion, image, or experience as closely as I can, and it is quite personal. As usual, YMMV.

poetinahat said:

Hmmm. Has anyone here had a publisher suggest changes to a poem, or just make changes without asking?

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Without asking, yes. Usually typos but I've had some problems with titles. Back in the 90's Mark Rich or Rodger Dutcher managed to change "Eleven Years After the Fall of the Astronomers" to "Eleven Years After the Fall of the Astronauts." In Star*Line "This Prophet Speaks the Rhythm" became "This Prophet Speaks Rhythm." You grit your teeth and move on.

MacAllister said:

It's an interesting situation. Certainly, Eliot's The Wasteland wouldn't be what it is without Ezra Pound's tampering.

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of course, but then eliot's the wasteland wouldn't be what it is without ezra pound's tampering, if you get what i'm saying.

i am certainly not disputing the validity (if not outright necessity) of editing prose, especially for publication.

but i come from a hardheaded perspective on poetry, which i consider to be a highly personal art form with a singular vision, like a painting.... which is to say, many painters create sketches and studies in preparation and may even create multiple versions. but (by and large), painters don't turn their canvases over to others to add, subtract or revise.

i know that my position may come off as arrogant or short-sighted, and could even be to the detriment of my standing or legacy as a poet, but it's an honest principle.