Snake Fossil with 4 Legs Discovered

Some people are not going to like this. Ken Hamm, for instance.

Perks said:

Some people are not going to like this. Ken Hamm, for instance.

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Pfft. Creationists have already more than proven their ability to ignore inconvenient evidence. This won't be any different.

Pfft, indeed. Really, this could sound very biblical: if part of the punishment of the serpent in Genesis is to crawl on it's belly, does that not imply that it had some sort of legs previously? Verily, this is that same serpent, repenting of it's sins on it's useless little legs!

Alternatively, am I the only person looking at the pictures who is thinking 'Asian dragon'? Long snakelike body with little clawed legs? Some sort of a folk memory, or at least a memory of seeing similar bones?

Well, technically, one cannot crawl without legs. One slithers without legs. Therefore the "serpent" wasn't a snake, it was more likely a lizard.

There's a bit of controversy over this one, as the fossil was very likely smuggled out of Brazil illegally, only later being bought from a private trader in Germany. No Brazilian scientists were invited to contribute to the paper, despite its obvious significance. The authors have dismissed all criticism, but I don't know if they can wash their hands so easily of the ethical issues.

I don't think scientists are obligated to refuse to look at new and exciting fossils just because they were exploited in the past. It doesn't say in the paper how long it had been languishing in the museum before someone happened to notice what it was.

"The snake's legs were just a few millimetres long." That's short. Like 1/10 of an inch and change. Seem bigger in the photo. Neat discovery in any event.

Twick said:

I don't think scientists are obligated to refuse to look at new and exciting fossils just because they were exploited in the past. It doesn't say in the paper how long it had been languishing in the museum before someone happened to notice what it was.

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Not refuse to look at. Maybe consider whether, given the exploitation took place, it would be nice to 1. invite the scientific community from the exploited country to take part, 2. make an effort at restitution when the work is done. I hope they return this fossil to Brazil.

Albedo said:

There's a bit of controversy over this one, as the fossil was very likely smuggled out of Brazil illegally, only later being bought from a private trader in Germany. No Brazilian scientists were invited to contribute to the paper, despite its obvious significance. The authors have dismissed all criticism, but I don't know if they can wash their hands so easily of the ethical issues.

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Sigh. It's so frustrating when scientists behave like appropriative jerks, especially when there's a discovery of such significance.

Still, it's great to have a nice intermediate fossil for snakes, like we've gotten for whales in recent years.

Now if we can only find a good intermediate fossil for bat ancestors that resolves the "ground up/trees down" debate for that group, I'll be a happy little biology geek.

Albedo said:

There's a bit of controversy over this one, as the fossil was very likely smuggled out of Brazil illegally, only later being bought from a private trader in Germany. No Brazilian scientists were invited to contribute to the paper, despite its obvious significance. The authors have dismissed all criticism, but I don't know if they can wash their hands so easily of the ethical issues.

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I was under the impression that this kind of black market mentality (sadly) isn't rare in the fossil world. (IIRC, wasn't there a primate-like fossil on a TV special some years back that had actually been unearthed long before it became a scientific celebrity, because it was sold to private collectors on the black market?) One has to wonder what amazing discoveries have been made and remain locked away in private collections, never to be known to science.

Brightdreamer said:

I was under the impression that this kind of black market mentality (sadly) isn't rare in the fossil world. (IIRC, wasn't there a primate-like fossil on a TV special some years back that had actually been unearthed long before it became a scientific celebrity, because it was sold to private collectors on the black market?) One has to wonder what amazing discoveries have been made and remain locked away in private collections, never to be known to science.

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Or if a really clear-cut evolutionary link fell into the hands of some creationist, who took it out back, with a hammer.

frimble3 said:

Or if a really clear-cut evolutionary link fell into the hands of some creationist, who took it out back, with a hammer.

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They'd be more likely to put it in one of their silly museums with some pseudoscientific explanation: "This proves the part in Genesis about the snake having legs before the fall from Eden!" But getting a fossil like that would cost more money than simply making one from papier-mâché.

Isn't there an ongoing problem in Africa, with extremely conservative religious folks smashing fossils? I seem to remember some news about that, a few years ago.

Roxxsmom said:

They'd be more likely to put it in one of their silly museums with some pseudoscientific explanation: "This proves the part in Genesis about the snake having legs before the fall from Eden!" But getting a fossil like that would cost more money than simply making one from papier-mâché.

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Also, "God put this in the ground to test your faith!"