Apparently, We Don't Exist.

shakeysix · Jul 9, 2015

If god is a computer then satan must be a virus? But, no, a virus is robotic, satan has to be a troll because a troll has free will. Whoa, this too deep for me. I do exist though, and although I am an atheist Ido believe in ghosts. Makes sense to me. Don't try to reason with me and I won't try to reason with you. I'll respect whatever you believe because I am no troll.--s6

JimmyB27 · Jul 10, 2015

rugcat said:
To be fair, there are more ways than one experiencing what truth is and what things are "real."

We in the Western world especially put a premium on the scientific method – evidence gained from experimentation that is repeatable. Along with conclusions that arrive from unassailable logic without contradictions or gaps.
Well, yeah, because it demonstrably works.

But this type of knowledge is not applicable when dealing with religious or mystical truths. Why not? Whether you call it experiencing God, or having a mystical revelation where you are one with the universe, it is a type of knowledge that is qualitatively different than what we usually experience. Qualitatively different is one way of putting it, I suppose... It's something that can be hyper-real -- such a perception of reality that is so strong and overwhelming that the normal reality of man-made logic and experimentation fade into the significance beside it. It may feel real to the one person experiencing it, but what goes on in one person's head has no bearing on actual reality.

For those who experience God in this fashion, no amount of logical contradiction will resonate or convince one to deny the experience. Once you personally experience the divine, you know that it is real, know it with a depth of certainty that makes it easy to conclude that those who have never seen it are simply unaware of its reality. It may feel real to the one person experiencing it, but what goes on in one person's head has no bearing on actual reality.

If all this spiritual 'truth' is just as real as the knowledge we gain from scientific enquiry, why are there so many versions of it? A person can tell me they've had a special revelation all they want, but if I ask them to show it to me, all I get is something like JAR's "I just know it, alright?" or Ken Ham's "I've got this book". I ask a scientist to show me his discovery and I'll get something like "Sure, it we found out that x, y and z are true, and here's how we proved it, and here are the papers by Tom, Dick and Harry confirming our findings. Incidentally, I can also show you some evidence that if you have this illness over here and you apply the knowledge we discovered, your chances of survival go from 1/10 to 9/10".

But don't listen to me, I don't exist.

JimmyB27 · Jul 10, 2015

shakeysix said:
If god is a computer then satan must be a virus? But, no, a virus is robotic, satan has to be a troll because a troll has free will. Whoa, this too deep for me. I do exist though, and although I am an atheist Ido believe in ghosts. Makes sense to me. Don't try to reason with me and I won't try to reason with you. I'll respect whatever you believe because I am no troll.--s6

Free will is an illusion.

shakeysix · Jul 10, 2015

Trolls are the Iagos of the internet--s6

Amadan · Jul 10, 2015

JimmyB27 said:
If all this spiritual 'truth' is just as real as the knowledge we gain from scientific enquiry, why are there so many versions of it? A person can tell me they've had a special revelation all they want, but if I ask them to show it to me, all I get is something like JAR's "I just know it, alright?" or Ken Ham's "I've got this book". I ask a scientist to show me his discovery and I'll get something like "Sure, it we found out that x, y and z are true, and here's how we proved it, and here are the papers by Tom, Dick and Harry confirming our findings. Incidentally, I can also show you some evidence that if you have this illness over here and you apply the knowledge we discovered, your chances of survival go from 1/10 to 9/10".

I agree. I hate the argument that "spiritual truth is just another kind of truth." No. Objective reality exists. Our tools and perceptions may be inadequate, so maybe someone has had some sort of "divine experience" that exposed them to a reality that others cannot perceive, but if that's the case, it is functionally the same as if they are hallucinating, since if it cannot be experienced or perceived by any other means than some supernatural force using magic to bestow it on you, then it does not exist for anyone who hasn't had that experience.

RichardGarfinkle · Jul 10, 2015

Amadan said:
I agree. I hate the argument that "spiritual truth is just another kind of truth." No. Objective reality exists. Our tools and perceptions may be inadequate, so maybe someone has had some sort of "divine experience" that exposed them to a reality that others cannot perceive, but if that's the case, it is functionally the same as if they are hallucinating, since if it cannot be experienced or perceived by any other means than some supernatural force using magic to bestow it on you, then it does not exist for anyone who hasn't had that experience.

I don't tend to hold to the idea of spiritual truth. I do hold with spiritual practice. There are mental and physical disciplines that various religions have developed over time that are useful regardless of whether or not one adheres to the religion. To me that's the major benefit of religious diversity: people digging deep into their own minds to try to get a grip on what is happening and to use it better.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

JimmyB27 said:
If all this spiritual 'truth' is just as real as the knowledge we gain from scientific enquiry, why are there so many versions of it?

Why should there only be one version of the truth?

It makes sense to me that each person's experience of reality is true, and therefore a legitimate version of the truth.

But simply because something is true for me, that does not mean it must be true for you, too.

Amadan · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
Why should there only be one version of the truth?

If you believe in objective reality, then this is tautological. If you don't, then sure, it's possible that everyone lives in their own universe.

Ravioli · Jul 10, 2015

To be honest, I did lose my faith in God when he left me to beg, scream, and cry over my dying kitten when I was 17, and did nothing other than let his suffering continue for another hour after he'd let him suffer an incurable disease for most of his life, when he could've just let us find a vet who'd find out early on that there is no hope and the poor thing, born in my closet, can be spared another half year of suffering and being too weak to play and explore with his siblings.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

Amadan said:
If you believe in objective reality, then this is tautological.

Why can't I believe in both an objective, scientific world and a spirit world?

Why does it have to be either-or?

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

shakeysix said:
Trolls are the Iagos of the internet--s6

I love Iago.

Dennis E. Taylor · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
Why can't I believe in both an objective, scientific world and a spirit world?

Why does it have to be either-or?

You can. The problem is the loosy-goosey use of the word "truth" to apply to both areas in the same way. Science is by nature objective, based on provable/falsifiable theories and testable/reproducible results. Spirituality is about personal, internal events and states. No one is saying you can't have both. The problem arises when someone tries to present an internal spiritual state as being "real" in the same way that gravity is real. Gravity will smack you to the ground whether you believe in it or not. But despite any number of atheists double-damn-daring God to smite them for their unbelief, nada.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

Angry Guy said:
You can. The problem is the loosy-goosey use of the word "truth" to apply to both areas in the same way. Science is by nature objective, based on provable/falsifiable theories and testable/reproducible results. Spirituality is about personal, internal events and states. No one is saying you can't have both. The problem arises when someone tries to present an internal spiritual state as being "real" in the same way that gravity is real. Gravity will smack you to the ground whether you believe in it or not. But despite any number of atheists double-damn-daring God to smite them for their unbelief, nada.

And if I ever try to convert you to Zuni, then you can certainly use that argument against me. But I'm only describing what I believe. Not what I think anyone else should. I use "truth" for both, because it applies to both, for me, and because I expect people to respect that. I don't ask that they believe it themselves.

Though I disagree that spirituality is entirely about personal, internal events. Religion typically arises out of a communal need, after all, rather than a strictly personal one, and often deals with communal, external events as much as the internal ones.

Amadan · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
Why can't I believe in both an objective, scientific world and a spirit world?

Why does it have to be either-or?

You can believe in anything you like. That doesn't make what you believe true.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

Amadan said:
You can believe in anything you like. That doesn't make what you believe true.

It does. It just doesn't make it true for you.

Amadan · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
It does. It just doesn't make it true for you.

If your beliefs are true, yes. This is also tautological. If I'm right, you're wrong.

shakeysix · Jul 10, 2015

There is subjective truth and objective truth. I believe in ghosts because I have seen ghosts but I would never try to convince anyone of the existence of ghosts because it is a subjective truth, my truth based on personal experience. It is almost impossible to prove a subjective truth but it is also almost impossible to dissuade a person from a long held subjective truth. Dissing someone's cherished but subjective truth is, of course, the worst way to begin a persuasive argument. That atheists in foxholes rag always chaps my fanny--my subjective fanny, of course--s6

RichardGarfinkle · Jul 10, 2015

You guys are having a semantic argument about what the true meaning of truth is. Any more recursion and this thread will spawn its own Julia Set.

Come on, how about coining some technical terminology so the discussion can be carried on.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

Amadan said:
If your beliefs are true, yes. This is also tautological. If I'm right, you're wrong.

Conversely, if I'm right, then you can also be right. Ain't that neat?

Amadan · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
Conversely, if I'm right, then you can also be right. Ain't that neat?

Nope. If you're right, I'm wrong.

I realize this is very epistemological and shit, and I admit I have very little patience for philosophizing about the nature of reality and truth. Believing in infinite truths and subjective reality and whatever is essentially harmless, and I'm not about to try to argue you into not believing, any more than I try to convince Christians to stop believing in God. But "My spirit world is real" differs from "God is real and boy are you atheists in for a surprise" only in tone.

Roxxsmom · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
And if I ever try to convert you to Zuni, then you can certainly use that argument against me. But I'm only describing what I believe. Not what I think anyone else should. I use "truth" for both, because it applies to both, for me, and because I expect people to respect that. I don't ask that they believe it themselves.

This is exactly it, and what I tried to say up thread (obviously did a bad job of it).

Objective truth, the kind we can arrive at with observation and experimentation, can be agreed upon. These are the basis of science, both theoretical and applied.

Spiritual truths are personal and non falsifiable. Therefore we can't expect others to agree about them and should allow each their own there. Problems arise when someone insists that their spiritual truth is objectively true and expects everyone else to follow it.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

Amadan said:
Nope. If you're right, I'm wrong.

I realize this is very epistemological and shit, and I admit I have very little patience for philosophizing about the nature of reality and truth. Believing in infinite truths and subjective reality and whatever is essentially harmless, and I'm not about to try to argue you into not believing, any more than I try to convince Christians to stop believing in God. But "My spirit world is real" differs from "God is real and boy are you atheists in for a surprise" only in tone.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've made my peace by believing everyone else is also right. You've made yours by deciding everyone else is wrong.

kuwisdelu · Jul 10, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
Spiritual truths are personal and non falsifiable. Therefore we can't expect others to agree about them and should allow each their own there. Problems arise when someone insists that their spiritual truth is objectively true and expects everyone else to follow it.

I don't think spiritual truths are only personal. They can be communal.

Roxxsmom · Jul 10, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
I don't think spiritual truths are only personal. They can be communal.

Right, if the consent is mutual. It can be hard, though, to be a member of a community that is defined by its spiritual beliefs when you don't share the same.

Maybe I should rephrase: Problems arise when a community that shares a spiritual truth by their mutual consent insists that others, both individuals and communities, accept the same.

Diana Hignutt · Jul 10, 2015

Jamesaritchie said:
Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

WTF? Okay, if God is a fact, and is all-powerful, it shouldn't be any problem for you to have him pop by this thread and prove it.

Apparently, We Don't Exist.

blue eyed floozy

Hoopy frood

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Get it off! It burns!

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blue eyed floozy

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Beastly Fido

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