Apparently, We Don't Exist.

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Viridian

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Yeah, isn't it usually the other way around? As in: the stereotypical atheist is someone who suffered a shattering loss, at which point he dropped to his knees, screamed "NOOOOOO!" at the uncaring sky, and was a non-believer from that moment on.
Huh! I never considered that. Funny how stereotypes so often contradict each other.
 

thethinker42

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I've never understood the "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument.

I mean, what is it supposed to prove? When people are in a calm and rational, they choose atheism, but when they're afraid, they believe in God? People who experience trauma often find comfort in religion? People near death like the idea of an afterlife?

Honestly, it sounds like an argument against religion, not for it.

It's the idea that if an atheist is scared enough, they'll pray because they knew all along that God is real, and will admit it now that they're desperate.

Nonsense, of course, but persistent nonsense.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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The no atheists in foxholes myth betrays a common human error: universalizing an individual's reaction. Where one person will find religion, another will lose it, one will have pre-existing religion confirmed, another will see confirmation that religion is useless for them. Many people are curiously unwilling to accept that there is no single possible response to a situation.

It's even harder for people to accept that this is a good thing. I tend to look at the varieties of human ways of thought as a form of biodiversity. Humanity overall benefits from different people approaching and reacting to the same situation in different ways and sharing person to person their experiences therein.
 

Roxxsmom

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While absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the general process, when you're trying to use rationality to provide evidence for something, is that the one who claims something exists is the one who is expected to provide evidence. Non falsifiable statements don't fly if you're trying to get everyone else to accept your hypothesis.

And the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence you will need to convince others of your position.

This is how it works with science and the empirical world, of course. Religion and statements about the nature and existence of supernatural beings are another matter, and that's fine. But that's why we call it a belief. That's why people don't all agree about which ones, if any, are real and true. And that's why we have to agree to disagree and give each other the benefit of the doubt about the sincerity of our belief (or non belief).
 

DancingMaenid

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Yeah, isn't it usually the other way around? As in: the stereotypical atheist is someone who suffered a shattering loss, at which point he dropped to his knees, screamed "NOOOOOO!" at the uncaring sky, and was a non-believer from that moment on.

I've seen that a lot, too. I think stereotypes on both extremes (atheists finding religion in dire circumstances and atheists becoming nonbelievers after suffering a loss) are huge oversimplifications of real human emotion and reaction. There seems to be a prevalent idea that the beliefs of atheists and agnostics are built on very shaky ground, which is rather insulting. It's an idea that assumes that theism (often Christianity in particular) is obviously correct, so anyone who feels differently must not have thought too carefully about it.

I attribute my loss/change of faith to my father's death, but it wasn't a dramatic rejection, and I wasn't angry at God. It was a process over a few years where I started to evaluate my faith more and realized, in the light of what I had experienced, that my old beliefs didn't make sense to me anymore and that my faith had not been as sincere or well-thought-out as I had thought. It was a gradual process that involved a lot of soul-searching and thought.
 

CassandraW

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Atheists may exist, but this much I know. Every case of atheism is temporary. Atheists all make the same mistake of thinking they believe one thing, and Christians believe another. This is thoughtless, and not the case at all. God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?

Are you for real with this?
 

Tazlima

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I've never understood the "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument.

I mean, what is it supposed to prove? When people are in a calm and rational, they choose atheism, but when they're afraid, they believe in God? ...

Honestly, it sounds like an argument against religion, not for it.

I never thought about it, but that's a good point.

Also, I now have an infomercial-type voice in my mind staying: "Stuck in a terrifying situation? Looking for a straw to grasp at? Try God! He's better than nothing."
 

CassandraW

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I kind of want a "try god! He's better than nothing!" t-shirt.
 

Treehouseman

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After several years of trying, I was having trouble getting pregnant and had been diagnosed with infertility.

"There's no atheists in foxholes!" said my friend, who proceeded to unwrap with great solemnity a Polynesian Fertility Idol with a very large wooden penis.

I was pregnant within 2 weeks.

He gave the Idol to another older woman who was also infertile, same thing (you had to keep the Idol wrapped up,) he said (too powerful).

I am still an atheist. Mind you, if God looks like the Polynesian Fertility Idol, that will also be worth the surprise.

(This is a true story. I am not making anything up.)
 

frimble3

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I never thought about it, but that's a good point.

Also, I now have an infomercial-type voice in my mind staying: "Stuck in a terrifying situation? Looking for a straw to grasp at? Try God! He's better than nothing."
And a mighty short straw at that.
It provides a really nasty answer to questions like: 'Why does God let bad things happen?' and 'How could God let an innocent person suffer like that?'
God makes terrifying situations, and causes extreme pain, physical and mental, in order to get converts. Simple, isn't it.
It's as though God looked at various marketing tactics: benevolence, authoritatianism, big prizes, and decided that, yeah, terrorism was the most effective way to proceed.
I may be damned for not bowing down to a god like that, but I'll be damned if I'm bowing down to a god like that.

*Fortunately, I don't (and never did, as far as I can recall) believe in God or gods, so I have no conflict or turmoil about this. Although my last thought may be 'Oops'.
 

Marian Perera

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It's as though God looked at various marketing tactics: benevolence, authoritatianism, big prizes, and decided that, yeah, terrorism was the most effective way to proceed.
I may be damned for not bowing down to a god like that, but I'll be damned if I'm bowing down to a god like that.

This is the reason why "Atheists will come face to face with God one day" fails to have any effect on me.

Right now I believe Pol Pot existed. I also believe he was a vicious, despicable person.

If, in the future, I'm presented with incontrovertible proof that an omnipotent god exists, I will believe he exists. Likewise, I will also believe he's a vicious, despicable person. So how is this at all a victory for that god or its supporters?

It's like that god is similar to the one in the Terry Pratchett book - he's not all-powerful until everyone believes in him, therefore atheists cannot exist.
 

rugcat

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To be fair, there are more ways than one experiencing what truth is and what things are "real."

We in the Western world especially put a premium on the scientific method – evidence gained from experimentation that is repeatable. Along with conclusions that arrive from unassailable logic without contradictions or gaps.

But this type of knowledge is not applicable when dealing with religious or mystical truths. Whether you call it experiencing God, or having a mystical revelation where you are one with the universe, it is a type of knowledge that is qualitatively different than what we usually experience. It's something that can be hyper-real -- such a perception of reality that is so strong and overwhelming that the normal reality of man-made logic and experimentation fade into the significance beside it.

For those who experience God in this fashion, no amount of logical contradiction will resonate or convince one to deny the experience. Once you personally experience the divine, you know that it is real, know it with a depth of certainty that makes it easy to conclude that those who have never seen it are simply unaware of its reality.

This type of spiritual experience has nothing to do with the rantings of a preacher on the corner. But I think we tend to be a bit too quick to denigrate this type of knowledge as inferior or less worthwhile then what we have come to commonly accept as "knowledge."

From the beginning of recorded history, and probably even further back, individuals have experienced states of higher consciousness and mystical experiences from which they have gained great insight.

"The universe is not only queerer than we imagine,it is queerer than we can imagine."
-- JBS Haldane

I know that all life on this planet is one – trees and horseshoe crabs and people and bacteria are merely the various manifestations that have developed from primal life. Or as Lauren Eisley puts it, if you go far enough back in time you will reach a place where cat and man and weasel leap into a single shape.

I believe this to be true from the scientific record and the power of the theory of evolution.

But I know it in a deeper and to me more meaningful way, because I've "seen" it. It is a different way of knowing things, but does not lack its own form of validity.
 

DancingMaenid

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This is the reason why "Atheists will come face to face with God one day" fails to have any effect on me.

Right now I believe Pol Pot existed. I also believe he was a vicious, despicable person.

If, in the future, I'm presented with incontrovertible proof that an omnipotent god exists, I will believe he exists. Likewise, I will also believe he's a vicious, despicable person. So how is this at all a victory for that god or its supporters?

I feel similarly. I can conceive of the possibility that there's a good god. But the type of god that some people believe in (a god that will punish anyone who doesn't believe the "right" thing and who bestows favors only on those who please it) is not the type of deity I would want to worship. The way I figure it, if the Christian God exists, or if Jesus really was the Messiah, neither of them are likely to care or be offended that I had doubts and followed my own instincts and conscience when it comes to faith. I don't want to worship a higher power that cares so much about people having blind faith.
 

Max Vaehling

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God exists, and this is not my belief, and more than the fact that the computer I'm using is not a belief. God is as solid, as real, as present, as this computer. Considerably more real and solid than anything or anyone on the internet.

Every atheist will meet God face to face.

Or maybe we'll all meet your computer.

But this is not a thread about the non-existence of God (or your computer), it's about the nonexistence of us Atheists. Which actually is a falsifiable claim. All you need is one atheist. Or an atheist in a foxhole. Which still should be easier to present than God.
 

Dennis E. Taylor

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But I think we tend to be a bit too quick to denigrate this type of knowledge as inferior or less worthwhile then what we have come to commonly accept as "knowledge."

While we're being fair, the types of "denigration" that happen in situations like this thread right now, happen because a theist has climbed up on the soapbox, made one or more imperative statements (often involving threats of hellfire if you don't get with the program) based on nothing but their own belief. As I keep saying, when you bring your beliefs into an argument, you make them fair game. When you do so in a way that is so blatantly fallacious, you kind of have to expect a shitstorm of rebuttal.

TL;DR version: theists often bring about this situation by demanding that we take their word for it, not only in complete absence of proof, but in the face of pervasive proof to the contrary.
 

Amadan

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And have you ever been in a foxhole, crouching next to a buddy who just had his head explode?


Have you? Don't front like you're a hard man if you can't back it up.

"No atheists in foxholes" has been disproven many times. Probably as many men came home from war having lost their faith in God as having turned to him in terror.
 

kuwisdelu

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If atheists don't exist, does that mean ya'll are spooky ghosts?

Ahhh! Ghosts!

Wait... do ghosts exist?
 

kuwisdelu

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Yeah, isn't it usually the other way around? As in: the stereotypical atheist is someone who suffered a shattering loss, at which point he dropped to his knees, screamed "NOOOOOO!" at the uncaring sky, and was a non-believer from that moment on.

No, you're thinking of Darth Vader.
 

Maryn

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I'm a ghost. Yeah, that's the ticket!
 

Tazlima

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With your nonexistence, you'll lose the house though... Non-existing people have no right to property...

Yeah, but they're a bugger to evict.

Ghosts...the ultimate squatters.
 
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