Is traditional publishing right for me?

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newauth

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trade publishing is a partnership. Whether or not you like the current state of affairs, agree with the policies, etc is irrelevant.

Although it's a partnership, I disagree that my feelings toward it are irrelevant. I'm here because I care about the quality of my work, & because I want full ability to promote it effectively. Right now, it feels like I'd be making tradeoffs if I go with either trade publishing or self-publishing.

On sales reports - yes, digital info is available immediately on some platforms. Not all. And a publisher has to run this info on multiple authors, and that takes time. Which means man hours. Which means $ that is coming out of someone's percentage. Just a thought.

99% of this can (most likely) be automated. If Amazon can do this, there's limited reason to think publishers don't have the ability provide unofficial sales data in a timely manner (I expect it to largely be a one-time cost to establish the right processes). It's really just good business sense to do so, to tell you the truth.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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This simply isn't true. I don't know why you think this it is.

As I stated in a previous post to another AW member - state your sources.

I keep on hearing these stories but no one has any actual links to any actual facts.

I can only speak for myself - 6 books with Carina Press, 4 with Samhain Publishing and I just got an agent who got me another 3 book deal with Samhain. I haven't been forced into accepting edits I didn't agree with; I've had input on my covers and it behooves my publishers to market my books if for nothing else than to make back the money they've invested in paying for the cover art, editing and listing the books.

That's my facts. My experience to date.

Now let's start stating sources, shall we?
 

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Most of the quick numbers come from Bookscan and Worldcat (the latter, anyone can have access to and it tracks library acquisitions, but it's not necessarily an easy tally of straight number of copies sold.) I know several of the Big 5 provide authors with access to Bookscan numbers, but beyond the creation of the interface, there's the trouble of opening the floodgates when writers all of a sudden start obsessing over the meaning and accuracy of the numbers instead of working on their writing. (Lol! Do NOT ask me how I know that.)

There is definitely a comfort curve in learning to resist micro-analyzing every week's numbers and coming to terms with what does, and more importantly does not make a substantial difference in the rise and fall of sales.

That said, there is some really good information in the self-publishing diaries here on AW that can be valuable for all published writers. We've seen some very encouraging insight and returns from what the writers here have tried. Definitely check them out. Quite a number of people here are doing self-publishing with great care and success.
 
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newauth

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That doesn't mean that self-published books can't do well, but this myth that the marketing and promotions departments at the established trade publishers are better at fumbling than succeeding is just not true and not productive.

This is an interesting comment.

For the sake of argument:
- Has your book been test-promoted on BookBub? Google Adwords? Facebook Ads? All 3 are known work well for many types of books.
- Have they hired an SEO (search engine optimization) expert to train you on how to write posts that'll bring in visitors to your website? Or tell you how best to engage with your readers?
- Have they helped you build out an email list of readers for future book promotions (this is notably the BEST marketing technique other there, esp. for books)?
- Do you have any accountability on the marketing numbers, i.e., would your publisher (or marketing professional) be able to tell you: "after spending this much $ on marketing, it resulted in x many sales of your book"? (I know things aren't cut-and-dry like this, but effective promotion & marketing is hard--and different--for each type of book.)

I have no doubt that trade publishers are good at doing a traditional book launch (and continuing it for x many months).

But I do have serious doubts about their ability to do good long-term promotion for 99%+ of their authors.
 

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This is an interesting comment.

For the sake of argument:
- Has your book been test-promoted on BookBub? Google Adwords? Facebook Ads? All 3 are known work well for many types of books.

I'm not sure about these particular venues. We have had marketing meetings where the efficacy of certain ads were discussed. The ones that had the most impact were in things like the bookstore websites, Amazon, The New York Times, and Entertainment Weekly. I don't think they did Bookbub. I don't remember hearing about that one.
- Have they hired an SEO (search engine optimization) expert to train you on how to write posts that'll bring in visitors to your website? Or tell you how best to engage with your readers?
I don't think they care much about readers reading my website. Neither do I. I'm not a blogger. They have asked me to guest post on certain blogs and write articles for their promotional sites.
- Have they helped you build out an email list of readers for future book promotions (this is notably the BEST marketing technique other there, esp. for books)?
I will never do personal email blasts and am completely unconvinced that they sell books to people unrelated or unknown to the author. Simon & Schuster do email promotions of all their releases to people who sign up for that sort of thing.
- Do you have any accountability on the marketing numbers, i.e., would your publisher (or marketing professional) be able to tell you: "after spending this much $ on marketing, it resulted in x many sales of your book"? (I know things aren't cut-and-dry like this, but effective promotion & marketing is hard--and different--for each type of book.)That was more or less covered in my answer to the first question.

I have no doubt that trade publishers are good at doing a traditional book launch (and continuing it for x many months).

But I do have serious doubts about their ability to do good long-term promotion for 99%+ of their authors.

I feel like I may have misunderstood the OP. If this is where your interests lie, then self-publishing may be a much richer experience for you than trade publishing. I only wanted to write the books and collaborate with people of those other expertises. I have no desire to acquire them for myself.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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I feel like I may have misunderstood the OP. If this is where your interests lie, then self-publishing may be a much richer experience for you than trade publishing. I only wanted to write the books and collaborate with people of those other expertises. I have no desire to acquire them for myself.

I agree.

I thought this was a thread about exploring both options.

Silly me.
 

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As I stated in a previous post to another AW member - state your sources.
State my sources? Like you, these are my experiences and what I've learned from the several hundred trade published authors I've talked to personally and through my time as managing editor of AuthorScoop, where we did more than a hundred interviews and guest pieces with trade published authors.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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State my sources? Like you, these are my experiences and what I've learned from the several hundred trade published authors I've talked to personally and through my time as managing editor of AuthorScoop, where we did more than a hundred interviews and guest pieces with trade published authors.

Sorry - I wasn't referring to you but to the OP who kept saying he's "heard" this about trade publishing - that they demand edits, etc.

My bad - definitely NOT referring to you!
 

newauth

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My key learnings from this thread have been:
- Bookscan numbers are now being provided on a weekly basis, so there is now some movement (for the better) in this respect.
- Authors can demand to have final say on edits, & succeed in that demand. I simply don't want to end up in a situation like: (Publisher: "Our editors took a vote & unanimously decided you need to cut these last 2 lines in your ending." Me: "I understand why, but no. Final answer.")

Thank you to all who added comments. These two learnings are beginning to address my concerns in 1, 2, & 3, so I'm grateful for your time!
 
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newauth

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Sorry - I wasn't referring to you but to the OP who kept saying he's "heard" this about trade publishing - that they demand edits, etc.

Most of my learnings about the industry are from online forums like AbsoluteWrite, literary agent blogs, & author blogs. I apologize for not having specific sources, but I do remember reading things that I've stated in different places.

It's possible some of these may be one-off rants. As an industry newcomer, it's never easy to tell how common the source's experience is.
 

newauth

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I feel like I may have misunderstood the OP. If this is where your interests lie, then self-publishing may be a much richer experience for you than trade publishing. I only wanted to write the books and collaborate with people of those other expertises. I have no desire to acquire them for myself.

Just to clarify: I have a marketing background. I know how difficult it is to do well. It takes a different set of skills to do initial PR vs. ongoing promotion with accountability (that last portion is key). Let's say your publisher spent $50,000 on promoting your book. If I had full access to allocate that marketing $ as I willed, I would choose to do it differently.

As I hinted at in my opening points, my true interests lie in:
- Putting out the best quality of work that I can (first & foremost)
- Have full ability to effectively promote my work

As far as I can tell, trade publishing is my best shot at the former. And yet, if I don't have better control of the latter, it is highly unlikely that my book will get the right kind of traction in today's marketplace.
 
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shadowwalker

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Most of my learnings about the industry are from online forums like AbsoluteWrite, literary agent blogs, & author blogs. I apologize for not having specific sources, but I do remember reading things that I've stated in different places.

It's possible some of these may be one-off rants. As an industry newcomer, it's never easy to tell how common the source's experience is.

When you see something that sounds outrageous, I've learned it's a good idea to see what else that person has said/done/their experience/etc. A great deal of "mis-information" comes from people with an agenda or a huge chip on their shoulder - or who are just repeating what they've "heard".
 

Marian Perera

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I will never do personal email blasts and am completely unconvinced that they sell books to people unrelated or unknown to the author.

Because I post reviews on my blog occasionally, I get a lot of emails from authors trying to sell their books. I have yet to request or read one of these books. So like you, I'm not convinced that this is a great way to sell books to readers (and I'm being offered the books for free!).
 

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Just to clarify: I have a marketing background. I know how difficult it is to do well. It takes a different set of skills to do initial PR vs. ongoing promotion with accountability (that last portion is key). Let's say your publisher spent $50,000 on promoting your book. If I had full access to allocate that marketing $ as I willed, I would choose to do it differently.
In trade publishing, you will have very little say in how the marketing and promotional money is spent. They have teams of professionals very current on what works and since they've made the investment, they're going to want to steer the efforts to recoup that investment.

They will be happy to have you do pretty much whatever you like on your own. In fact, I know a few writers who hired independent publicists who worked happily in concert with the house's publicist. Though, in the end, only of of them said they would ever bother with that expenditure again.
 

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Perks said:
I will never do personal email blasts and am completely unconvinced that they sell books to people unrelated or unknown to the author.

This is not what I meant, FYI. The best marketing tool (tried & tested in almost every industry) is to start creating an email list of YOUR readers, those who self-subscribed to the list.

This will be helpful to you in your writing career, so I'll expand upon it: Basically, as your readers visit your website, you ask them to sign up for your newsletter (for future early release copies, first chapter previews, discounts, etc.). If they love your work, they will sign up by leaving their email address. When your next book comes out (and even before it comes out), your organically collected email list is the most effective promotion tool--and these are the people most likely to make an immediate purchase.

People generally hate ads, and they're ambivalent to emails from corporate S&S or Amazon. They love getting semi-personalized emails from authors they love (I don't think I need a source for this! :)).
 
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Although it's a partnership, I disagree that my feelings toward it are irrelevant. I'm here because I care about the quality of my work, & because I want full ability to promote it effectively. Right now, it feels like I'd be making tradeoffs if I go with either trade publishing or self-publishing.



99% of this can (most likely) be automated. If Amazon can do this, there's limited reason to think publishers don't have the ability provide unofficial sales data in a timely manner (I expect it to largely be a one-time cost to establish the right processes). It's really just good business sense to do so, to tell you the truth.

I apologize for my brevity here - I was typing on my phone and trying to get a lot out.

What I meant in saying your feelings are irrelevant was simply this:
This is currently the way the industry works. You may disagree with it. You may prefer to look for publishers who go against the industry norm, or you may prefer to self publish. Whatever works for you. How you feel about it makes no difference to the majority of publishers, whose business model is currently working for them, and who have a wealth of incoming new authors to choose from. How you feel about it makes all the difference in the world... to you. Not to them. It doesn't hurt them one bit to not get your business.

And yes, a lot of that can be automated, and I believe you're absolutely correct, it's likely the cost aspect of the initial set up for most publishers to do. There are other factors as well - business models, profit/loss info, etc. Would it be ideal if they could give writers access to the raw data? Yep. Will they do it? Eventually, I'm sure more and more will.

The publishing industry as a whole is changing, drastically. It's a constantly evolving machine.
As a writer, you need to find the path that makes the most sense to you - and the things you take into consideration when deciding on that path will be very personal. What's your personal business model, and can it be supported by a trade publishing house?

If you're really uncertain, and you honestly have not made up your mind, try querying for an agent. Or try querying direct to publisher (many of the big houses won't accept unagented submissions, but smaller ones often do). See what kind of response you get.

If you get requests for fulls, you can either accept and see where it takes you, or you can take that as a sign of potential and decline in order to self publish. I see nothing wrong with taking it to that point. If you want to go further than that, and you're still unsure if trade publishing is right for you, make sure to discuss that before signing on with the agent. That should be a negotiated part of your contract with them.

Either way... best of luck!
 

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Because I post reviews on my blog occasionally, I get a lot of emails from authors trying to sell their books. I have yet to request or read one of these books. So like you, I'm not convinced that this is a great way to sell books to readers (and I'm being offered the books for free!).


Ugh. It's so annoying. I will never be that guy. If people have had enough interest to find me online, I'll make announcements there. And then there are people who like to get notified of publisher's releases. I get that, too. But it's kind of hard to imagine anyone wanting an email from me saying "Hay! Buy my book!"
 

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This is not what I meant, FYI. The best marketing tool is to start creating an email list of YOUR readers (tried & tested in almost every industry) who have self-subscribed to be on this list.

This will be helpful to you in your writing career, so I'll expand upon it: Basically, as your readers visit your website, you ask them to sign up for your newsletter (for future early release copies, first chapter previews, discounts, etc.). If they love your work, they will sign up by leaving their email address. When your next book comes out (and even before it comes out), your organically collected email list is the most effective promotion tool--and the people most like to make a purchase.

People generally hate ads and they hate getting emails from S&S or Amazon. They love getting semi-personalized emails from authors they love.

I do not believe that this sells books. If they want to know what I'm up to, they, on their own, find me on Facebook or Twitter. I have never and will never sign up for an author to send me promotions. And I will unsubscribe to any I inadvertently become attached to.

ETA - Of course, and obviously, other people feel differently. And whatever works, works. It's just not for me and I've never seen anything that shows that it sells a good number of books. For me, I am not willing to risk igniting the feeling in my readers that I get when I receive these kinds of emails.
 
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RKarina

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I do not believe that this sells books. If they want to know what I'm up to, they, on their own, find me on Facebook or Twitter. I have never and will never sign up for an author to send me promotions. And I will unsubscribe to any I inadvertently become attached to.

Ditto!
I follow my fave's on Twitter or Facebook.
I think the challenge is that the industry is changing so rapidly. What worked 20 years ago is now hopelessly outdated, and what worked just one year ago is now intensely annoying to the very people you're trying to reach.
 

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Ditto!
I follow my fave's on Twitter or Facebook.

The best thing about this is that I get to see things other than promotions from them. Sometimes they share jokes or things about their lives or even recommendations of other books and authors I might not know.
 

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ETA - Of course, and obviously, other people feel differently. And whatever works, works. It's just not for me and I've never seen anything that shows that it sells a good number of books. For me, I am not willing to risk igniting the feeling in my readers that I get when I receive these kinds of emails.

Agree, of course--all depends on your audience. I personally would not subscribe to such lists, but many, many people do. You're best off think about email as simply a different medium (like Twitter & Facebook). Everyone checks their email every day; not everyone checks Twitter & Facebook every day. (Keep in mind, as well, that some young people aren't even on Facebook or Twitter anymore... I'm a not-so-young professional, & I'm not on Facebook or Twitter, either personally or professionally).

Since I think we're venturing into a marketing discussion (yikes), I encourage you to Google the topic of how valuable an email list of your own can be.
 
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Since I think we're venturing into a marketing discussion (yikes), I encourage you to Google the topic of how valuable an email list of your own can be.

No thanks. I don't care how valuable it is. It's not for me and none of my favorite writers do it.
 

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Yeah, sorry... my email box is chock full of those valuable emails. I understand the purpose of them, I even understand the value of them, but I do not personally know anyone who has ever bought a book because of a promotional email that came from the publisher or writer. Some from the booksellers... "hey, 20% off sale!"... but that's not the same thing.
 

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While researching BookScan, I happened upon this good (slightly unrelated) article: http://janefriedman.com/2015/02/05/walk-away-good-big-5-publishers/. He links to some other decent articles as well.

Based on my original points, I'm more in favor of trade publishing now (I was at 50-50 before). The things I don't wish to compromise on are the quality of the final product & timely access to sales data. I'll also fight tooth-and-nail for control of pricing, esp. eBook pricing (if I make it that far! :)).

W.r.t. the quality of the final product, the 3rd freelance editor I recently hired also works at a Big 5 imprint (I wanted to experience first-hand just how much value a traditional publisher could provide in that respect). But, after this convo, I'm realizing I should simply ask: those of you who've gone through the editing rounds at a Big 5 publisher AND have worked with freelance editors, what are your thoughts? Do publishers really have an edge here?

P.S. If there's a thread where this has already been talked about to death, please direct me to it; thanks.
 
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