MG Questions

Melanii · Jun 23, 2015

Just something I've been contemplating for awhile is all. I've been drawn to MG novels recently. Especially with their little cute covers, their whimsical stories, and illustrations sometimes drawn in the mix. Plus, my favorite protagonists to write about are often aged 14 to 19. So 14 counts, I think.

Anyway, I'm wondering how I should set my boundaries. When I write YA, I know I'm okay with writing certain things.

I'm assuming you can write about many, many things. Are there any MG novels that almost seem like they go "over the edge"? Like maybe upper MG talking about confusion of puberty/hormones (not like mentioning those exact things, of course, but you know, "I'M ON MY FIRST PERIOD, WAT"), or mental illness like PTSD or Bipolar? Death? Abuse? Physical abuse? First crush ever? Childhood "love"? There are some people who shared their first kiss with some boy/girl in elementary/middle-school. XD

Now I think I'm just talking.

Yeah... O___O

kenpochick · Jun 23, 2015

Of course you can! Go for it. Although with MG I'd keep your main character under 14.

Toothpaste · Jun 23, 2015

You can do all those things! Though I highly recommend you actually sit down and read some of the more recent MGs out there. There is a lot more going on than just cute covers and whimsical stories. It also really helps if you can remember the kinds of thoughts you had at various ages and realise just how "you" you were back then. I like to do it by first remembering who my teacher was in grade 5 say, and then remembering sitting in class, and then remembering myself learning a lesson. And then I get into my 10 yearold self's head and I realise I was pretty much me, just as stubborn and thinking I knew it all as ever, just with less life experience

.

Also yeah, 14 is too old for MG. I'd say 13 is the very top end of Upper MG. I've just co-written a book with a 13 yearold protag and we are still debating where it belongs.

But yes, big issues absolutely are addressed in MG. Think of almost any Judy Blume book (almost all of them are MG aside from I think Forever and Deenie [and of course her adult books]).

Melanii · Jun 23, 2015

kenpochick said:
Of course you can! Go for it. Although with MG I'd keep your main character under 14.

Well, okay, 13 is good enough too.

Toothpaste said:
You can do all those things! Though I highly recommend you actually sit down and read some of the more recent MGs out there. There is a lot more going on than just cute covers and whimsical stories. It also really helps if you can remember the kinds of thoughts you had at various ages and realise just how "you" you were back then. I like to do it by first remembering who my teacher was in grade 5 say, and then remembering sitting in class, and then remembering myself learning a lesson. And then I get into my 10 yearold self's head and I realise I was pretty much me, just as stubborn and thinking I knew it all as ever, just with less life experience .

I like the cute covers and whimsical stories, honestly. XD I just want to add onto that stuff with other subjects.

Now as to your idea of how I thought when I was "10" or whatever, I can't do that sadly. My memory is pretty darn... terrible. My childhood is mostly non-existant in my brain except for a few things. *shrugs*

Interviewing 13 year olds sound kind of fun.

14 is not MG anymore? Still seems so young for me. D:

Toothpaste · Jun 23, 2015

Miss Strawberrii said:
I like the cute covers and whimsical stories, honestly. XD I just want to add onto that stuff with other subjects.

I really really really think you should read some newer MG. I like whimsy too, it's kind of my thing, I mean, my latest book has a pig in a teeny hat, but all my books also feature dark things in them, and deal with real emotions and real character arcs. And quite frankly it's the latter two things that sold my latest work (I know this, because that's what everyone's been telling me). Whimsy for whimsy sake doesn't work. And trust me publishers get lots of submissions by writers who are trying to be as wacky as they possibly can be without any attention to character or why they are telling the story in the first place.

I guess my point is kind of two fold: 1. You shouldn't want to write MG because you want to write cute. You should want to write it because you have a story to tell about characters of a certain age, and 2. don't look at it like you are adding onto what MGs are doing, you are writing what is in essence quite a normal MG. And that's okay. It's when an author thinks they are doing something particularly original without really know the genre and realising that which they think is original is actually quite normal that I get concerned. You really need to know your MG before you start writing it.

Miss Strawberrii said:
14 is not MG anymore? Still seems so young for me. D:

And I think this might be another problem. When I think 14 I think first year of high school. I think of some friends who I know lost their virginities at 13. I think of the transition towards adulthood. If you see 14 as "so young" I think you really really need to meet some actual 14 yearolds. And kids in general for that matter. And I think you need to really focus on how kids of all ages are people, with fears, worries, goals and logic. They aren't as mature, they haven't lived as long and lack life experience, but they aren't adorable little whimsical creatures. They are complex humans. Witness the marvelous new Pixar film INSIDE OUT.

Also MG has never been 14. Middle Grade and Young Adult are relatively new categories due to the fact that all books for young people used to be lumped together. MG has always been ages 8 - 12. 13 at the very tops. I think you need to ask yourself, do you really want to write an MG book or maybe you want to write YA. And yes, if you can't remember what it's like to be a kid and think like a kid, then you need to definitely talk to some kids and find out. Absolutely.

kenpochick · Jun 23, 2015

Everything Toothpaste said. All of it.

Melanii · Jun 23, 2015

I've read both MG and YA lately. A bit. More than adult. I'm not sure how to ever randomly talk to youngsters without sounding weird. XD

I probably don't remember how old I was when I went to high school, which is why I thought 14 was young.

Anyway, 7% battery left on iPad. ><

Melanii · Jun 23, 2015

Now that I'm not on an iPad, I'll reply better!

Toothpaste said:
I really really really think you should read some newer MG. I like whimsy too, it's kind of my thing, I mean, my latest book has a pig in a teeny hat, but all my books also feature dark things in them, and deal with real emotions and real character arcs. And quite frankly it's the latter two things that sold my latest work (I know this, because that's what everyone's been telling me). Whimsy for whimsy sake doesn't work. And trust me publishers get lots of submissions by writers who are trying to be as wacky as they possibly can be without any attention to character or why they are telling the story in the first place.

I wouldn't write for whimsy sake, I would have a whimsy plot maybe, but the characters would be realistic. As realistic as can be anyway! o.o

Toothpaste said:
I guess my point is kind of two fold: 1. You shouldn't want to write MG because you want to write cute. You should want to write it because you have a story to tell about characters of a certain age, and 2. don't look at it like you are adding onto what MGs are doing, you are writing what is in essence quite a normal MG. And that's okay. It's when an author thinks they are doing something particularly original without really know the genre and realising that which they think is original is actually quite normal that I get concerned. You really need to know your MG before you start writing it.

I suppose the only reason I mention "cute", is because I like cute things, and MG seems like I'd be able to have a sense of "cuteness", but with a serious plotline and characters. It probably makes more sense in my head than it ever will in words. I also mention it because MG seems to get away with having illustrations, and I according to some I have a "cutesy, whimsy, quirky" art style, so thus I might be able to draw with my writing.

The "cute" is more for visual effect than the writing itself, since I both write and draw.

I shall admit that I did JUST start seriously reading MG, though my favorite author writes only MG. But because I like it, I'm trying to get more interested! And get some recommendations I suppose. So I have more knowledge in the category after all.

Toothpaste said:
And I think this might be another problem. When I think 14 I think first year of high school. I think of some friends who I know lost their virginities at 13. I think of the transition towards adulthood. If you see 14 as "so young" I think you really really need to meet some actual 14 yearolds. And kids in general for that matter. And I think you need to really focus on how kids of all ages are people, with fears, worries, goals and logic. They aren't as mature, they haven't lived as long and lack life experience, but they aren't adorable little whimsical creatures. They are complex humans. Witness the marvelous new Pixar film INSIDE OUT.

I have always been terrible at knowing what ages people enter middle school or high school. I always have to write it down or seek a chart. Like I mentioned on my iPad post, I didn't remember what age I entered high school at all. Probably due to my memory.

And I can't even remember the last 14-year-old I met. Or 13-year-old. I'm one of those people that are terrible at guessing someone's age, and I don't like to randomly ask either. I have always been bad at those kinds of things.

(In fact, everyone I always end up talking to are around my age and are boys ><).

Also, don't assume to think I don't believe kids are people with feelings/fears/etc. That's terrible. D: I was a kid once. I just remember reading something somewhere about not being so graphic about certain things in certain categories. I think kids could handle anything.

Toothpaste said:
Also MG has never been 14. Middle Grade and Young Adult are relatively new categories due to the fact that all books for young people used to be lumped together. MG has always been ages 8 - 12. 13 at the very tops. I think you need to ask yourself, do you really want to write an MG book or maybe you want to write YA. And yes, if you can't remember what it's like to be a kid and think like a kid, then you need to definitely talk to some kids and find out. Absolutely.

So... How *would* someone find a way to talk to kids? Without seeming creepy or too random? The only kids I meet are either at the library with their parents for school projects or at a game store playing Pokemon and wanting to trade every 5 seconds. I also can't tell their ages. D:

Anways, thanks for being helpful!

Latina Bunny · Jun 24, 2015

Yeah, I recommend reading more MG, particularly the Upper MG stuff/Lower YA. There are MG (and YA) that deal with some serious or dark stuff out there. Not all MG is "cute".

One thing sticks out at me: You say you like to draw cute/whimsical things and that MG "gets away with having illustrations", which is one reason you want to write towards MG. Are you using the drawings for inspiration (like me) about what to write or to get a picture in your mind of the character as you write? Or are you planning to include your illustrations alongside your story? If it's the latter, then you may be disappointed: last time I checked, the MG publishers usually choose the illustrators, not the authors. At least, during the submisson/pitching process in the beginning.

Melanii · Jun 24, 2015

I would rather use my own art, like the latter. I've seen some books written and drawn by the same person. Do I have to make a name for myself? What do they even consider professional anyway? I've seen art in trade published books that I could copy...

That all confuses me for reals.

Remember, I have nothing against "cute" anything. If anything, I wanna trick readers. Okay, maybe not. XD Cute, just means the cover/illustrations. Not the story itself.

heza · Jun 24, 2015

Miss Strawberrii said:
I would rather use my own art, like the latter. I've seen some books written and drawn by the same person. Do I have to make a name for myself? What do they even consider professional anyway? I've seen art in trade published books that I could copy...

Actually, I've seen agents who are looking for PB author-illustrators (same person writes and draws), and I suppose that would be true for any illustrated book. "You don't hire the artist" means exactly that. You don't get your book illustrated; the publisher does. However, if you are the author and you draw well, in a style that suites the story and that the publisher likes, they might publish with your illustrations. I think RedWombat is both author and illustrator.

Latina Bunny · Jun 24, 2015

Miss Strawberrii said:
I would rather use my own art, like the latter. I've seen some books written and drawn by the same person. Do I have to make a name for myself? What do they even consider professional anyway? I've seen art in trade published books that I could copy...

That all confuses me for reals.

Remember, I have nothing against "cute" anything. If anything, I wanna trick readers. Okay, maybe not. XD Cute, just means the cover/illustrations. Not the story itself.

I would suggest asking the question in that thread I linked to; I'm sure someone who's had experience with illustration guidelines could help you out.

From what bits I gathered from this forum, though, is that it depends on what publishers you submit it to. There are a couple of places where illustrators could enter, or that allow illustrations with the text. However, from what I remember, most publishers want the text version of your book first. Then, after it's accepted (or maybe in the query?), you can mention that you have illustrations for the publishers to look at. Usually, you have to be a professional illustrator or really, really good, but if your text version of your book submission gets accepted, you can mention the illustrations to them. However, you don't usually include the illustrations during the submissions process. There are always exceptions, so I could be really offtrack.

There are some agents and publishers that do ask for writers/illustrators, but I think it's specifically in their requests or guidelines.

Like I said, check out that thread, and see if you can get more clear answers about the illustrations process.

ETA: In the end, just be sure to follow the guidelines of whatever publisher you want to submit to.

Melanii · Jun 24, 2015

That gives me hope! I get tired of people saying, "I love your art," and I'm like "But I'm going to be a writer, so you won't see them!"

Can I have recs of upper MG books that are fantasy and/or magical realism that's as mentions of pre-teen confusion and... Crap, what else did I mention? D:

Reading is always great learning!

Latina Bunny · Jun 24, 2015

Um, well, one story I remembered that mentioned a girl's first period off the top of my head was, "Real Mermaids Don't Wear Toe Rings". She was trying on a bathing suit and got her first period at that moment. (She also discovered she was a *spoilers* mermaid, too, lol.) I think it's Upper MG, if not Lower YA?

Melanii · Jun 24, 2015

That book sounds fun! And troublesome (a mermaid getting her first period, eh?) xD

Toothpaste · Jun 25, 2015

I honestly have no idea how you find kids to talk to, and maybe it might make sense for you to start by reading a lot of MG. That might do the work for you, honestly, in realising what kids of various ages think. But I need to ask again, if you can't remember what life was like when you were younger, and you have no young people around you showing you what it is currently like, what exactly aside from the drawing of the pictures part of the book is making you want to write about young people? I still am confused about that. I mean, how can you have a story about a character of a certain age you want to tell if you have no idea what it's like to be that age and what people that age want and think? How can you come up with a story in the first place? It seems to me you are more interested in finding a venue for your art than you are in writing about people of a certain age (especially since you have no idea what life is like for people of a certain age). Which is totally fine! Nothing to be ashamed of.

I wonder if it makes more sense to focus on possibly illustrating other people's stories. And stick to writing books about people you have an understanding about. This isn't to say that you can't develop an understanding, it's just that it's a lot of work and maybe there's a way around doing quite so much research about kids by illustrating the works of others.

As for MG - I suggest reading any Judy Blume book. I mean, "Are You There God, It's Me Margaret" is the classic "girls getting their period book" that also involves thoughts about boys and making out in the closet etc. It's dated, but still relevant. "Iggy's House" is about racism.

My books don't really deal with puberty or those issues, but deal a lot with what happens when the only parental figure you have dies, mourning, and the grey line of morality (she chooses to be a pirate for a while, and these aren't fun cool nice pirates, these pirates are mean). They are much more adventure style books, however. The first three Harry Potter books are MG and again deal with those kinds of big issues.

Honestly almost any MG you pick up has more going for it than just wacky funtimes.

Latina Bunny · Jun 25, 2015

Miss Strawberrii said:
That book sounds fun! And troublesome (a mermaid getting her first period, eh?) xD

The period stuff is not a big point in the story, but I felt embarassed for the poor girl, lol. The story is really light hearted, so it may not be dark or serious enough for your taste. (I read more of the light-hearted kinds of MG, so I don't have darker stuff to recommend.)

Anything for kids by Judy Blume has much more focus on puberty issues, so definitely check her out.

Again, just read more MG/YA to get a better feel for it. Have fun reading.

Melanii · Jun 25, 2015

I like both serious and light hearted stories. I can't remember life as a teen either, so maybe I shouldn't write YA? I also don't think I have an "adult" enough life to write about people my age either. I just write what I do, I guess. I read more YA than anything and just seemed interested in going younger. And by what I've been reading.

I don't think I'd be professional enough for anyone else's books. I've never heard of a nice pirate before. I hope you know I know that MG is not all sunshine and rainbows. I'm was just asking if I should be careful about how to mention things.

Well, it might not matter yet anyway. It'll be a long time before I finish anything...

Toothpaste · Jun 25, 2015

Then maybe all this conversation isn't really necessary. Why don't you forget about asking if you are allowed to do something or what genre you should write and just write whatever you want.

Just write. And illustrate what you write. And don't really worry so much about the rest of it. Just have fun with it, and see what happens. See if you end up with a story for kids or one for adults. Or one for teens. See what happens. Play, experiment, have fun.

Melanii · Jun 25, 2015

I was thinking too far in the future, probably. I SHOULD stop doing that. I keep changing what I want to write or not anyway. D:

Just something to look into. Thanks for your patience concerning my lack of experience. o.o

Samsonet · Jun 27, 2015

Apparently 14 is a really difficult age to categorize.

fwiw I really like stories that seem kind of silly but then turn out unexpectedly deep. It's hard to do, I suppose, but if you do it turns out brilliant.

Melanii · Jun 27, 2015

Truth be told, I'm not actually good with figuring out ages. When I draw, I'm like, "how old does s/he look"? ;_; I always avoid 20+ characters, despite being 27 myself. Like I mentioned, I don't feel "adult" enough to write books towards my age group. o.o

Supergirlofnc · Jun 28, 2015

Miss Strawberrii said:
Truth be told, I'm not actually good with figuring out ages. When I draw, I'm like, "how old does s/he look"? ;_; I always avoid 20+ characters, despite being 27 myself. Like I mentioned, I don't feel "adult" enough to write books towards my age group. o.o

I think after I passed twenty I only got older in years not spirit

FWIW, though, an editor told me that if the characters are over 12 sometimes bookstores don't know whether to put them in YA or MG. (But I've also seen MG books with older mc's) My characters originally were 13-14 and I aged them down to 12. Although, I didn't really change much about them. Now and again people tell me they read a year or two older...

Debbie V · Jun 29, 2015

Write it, illustrate it, get it critiqued and take it from there.

More and more MG books have author/illustrators. Miss Peregrine is photo illustrated. Brian Selznick won a caldecott. Perhaps look at Origami Yoda too. I'm not sure if the stories have the serious growing up aspects, but I know they are illustrated.

Ask librarians for books of the type you want to write. Ask them about sitting with a group of kids too. This way there is someone to supervise and you won't seem creepy. You'll seem like the aspiring author you are.

Melanii · Jun 29, 2015

^^ Good points! Omg!

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