Matt Haig gets hate on Twitter for planning book about masculinity

Vince524 · Jun 16, 2015

The article calls it being crucified, but I don't know that I'd go that far. And the article didn't quote any of the tweets that were against him, so I had to go look.

Saw some stuff here.

And this. User Actions

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BuffaloCrone‏@CorineJN

@Walters_Rex he can write about "masculinity" all he likes, as long as he shuts up about feminism, cause he ain't one. @matthaig

Here.

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Matt Haig ‏@matthaig1 Jun 14
.@FlexicoPlex how clear can I put this? I am not denying female oppression, I am trying to stop it by calling for a more fluid masculinity.
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2:44 PM - 14 Jun 2015 · Details
Plex Flexico ‏@FlexicoPlex Jun 14
@matthaig1 How about you listen to women re their own oppression and work on dismantling toxic masculinity for the sake of men?
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Matt HaigVerified account‏@matthaig1

.@flexicoplex Erm, that is EXACTLY what I am wanting to do. How many times do I have to say it?
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Seems to be a lot of anger because he dared called himself a feminist, and since he's, yaknow, a man, that's co-opting. His book is mansplaining. (Never mind nobody has read it, cause he hasn't even written it yet.) If you read through his tweets, he's not talking about the MRA movement and in fact makes it clear he thinks they're part of the problem. And his intentions seem pretty good to me.

Matt Haig ‏@matthaig1 5h5 hours ago
And by sexist I mean those crazy MRA people too.
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Haig insisted that “it is NOT sexist to say that a tightly defined construct of masculinity harms men” and added that he was “suspicious of all those silencing [phrases] like man flu and man up and mansplaining, because men need to talk more about feelings not less”.

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Haig, whose novels include The Radleys and The Last Family in England, said that a book about “a crisis in masculinity” would not be antifeminist. “How clear can I put this? I am not denying female oppression, I am trying to stop it by calling for a more fluid masculinity,” he wrote. “I have never felt oppressed by women, or that feminism is a problem. I do think boys find it hard to like things seen as feminine. I want my son not to feel self-conscious he likes ballet and my daughter to carry on playing Han Solo, that’s all.”
He told the Guardian that, while he “knew that gender is a sensitive and potentially heated subject, and that Twitter can be a bubbling cauldron of animosity”, he was surprised at the reaction his comments provoked. “The moment I said I was writing a book about masculinity, and at first that is all I said, I had people telling me that it was anti-feminist,” he said.

Personally, I don't call myself a feminist, but that's because it's a label that I've found means different things to different people. If you want to know my views on specific things, we can talk, but I don't want to rely on a label to sum up how I think.

But I guess it brings up a good question. Can men be feminists? Is that allowed? Or are we just oppressing women when we do that?

Can a man speak of these issues without mansplaining?

Yes, you guessed it. Poll to follow.

LittlePinto · Jun 16, 2015

I guess Jackson Katz is lucky that he started writing about the toxic effects of masculinity before Twitter became a Thing.

Fruitbat · Jun 16, 2015

Vince524 said:
The article calls it being crucified, but I don't know that I'd go that far. And the article didn't quote any of the tweets that were against...

Where's the article?

Vince524 · Jun 16, 2015

Fruitbat said:
Where's the article?

Oops. Added it.

NinjaFingers · Jun 16, 2015

We absolutely need a dialogue about masculinity.

Men can be feminists. There are some things men may well need to shut up and listen on. However, if we leave men out of the dialogue...well...here's the thing.

Sexists won't listen to women. They might listen to men.

Excessively tight gender roles and patriarchal constructions are negative towards men. (Toxic masculinity really means this).

Men being allowed to wear makeup and dresses whilst still being men is an important part of feminism for both men and women because we cannot have equality by just moving everyone into the masculine sphere (I have talked to feminists who think any woman who wears a skirt is supporting the patriarchy and betraying her gender) but by elevating "feminine" and "masculine" traits into parity.

Grr. I'm not sure how much sense I'm making.

Xelebes · Jun 16, 2015

NinjaFingers said:
Sexists won't listen to women. They might listen to men.

Sexists listen to women, but they only might listen to them.

Vince524 · Jun 16, 2015

NinjaFingers said:
We absolutely need a dialogue about masculinity.

Men can be feminists. There are some things men may well need to shut up and listen on. However, if we leave men out of the dialogue...well...here's the thing.

Sexists won't listen to women. They might listen to men.

Excessively tight gender roles and patriarchal constructions are negative towards men. (Toxic masculinity really means this).

Men being allowed to wear makeup and dresses whilst still being men is an important part of feminism for both men and women because we cannot have equality by just moving everyone into the masculine sphere (I have talked to feminists who think any woman who wears a skirt is supporting the patriarchy and betraying her gender) but by elevating "feminine" and "masculine" traits into parity.

Grr. I'm not sure how much sense I'm making.

See, I have issue with saying that on some things men may need to shut up and listen. I agree, we should be quiet and listen, but shut up means to me not contributing to the discussion at all. I don't think that's how you meant it. But you can't listen if you're always talking, so I get men need to listen, but at the same time, they should be encouraged to speak. And if what they're saying is wrong, challenge them. But challenge their ideas, not their right to speak.

Myrealana · Jun 16, 2015

Well, first of all, getting hate messages on Twitter is kind of like saying you stepped into the ocean and got salty. It's not the primary reason you go there, but it's pretty inevitable. If all he's ever gotten on Twitter before is love, he's a lucky man, or one who doesn't actually READ Twitter.

Second, as to the subject of the book, he should write the book he thinks needs to be written, without worrying about whether the cesspool of those paying attention on the internet approve or not.

Feminism is not about raising up women at the expense of men, so there is most definitely room for men in the conversation about gender equality. I welcome men in the feminist role. My father is feminist. My brother and husband are feminists. I hope my sons can consider themselves feminists. I also hope they will live to see a world where every boy feels free to take a frilly pink backpack to school and not be afraid of the social repercussions, just like my niece can take her Captain America bag.

We've come a long way in accepting women in roles that were traditionally male, but there are still lines that men seldom cross. There are far more female doctors than male nurses. If you hire an administrative assistant or receptionist, you will be lucky to have even a single male applicant.

robeiae · Jun 16, 2015

Myrealana said:
Well, first of all, getting hate messages on Twitter is kind of like saying you stepped into the ocean and got salty.

Yes.

heza · Jun 16, 2015

Vince524 said:
See, I have issue with saying that on some things men may need to shut up and listen. I agree, we should be quiet and listen, but shut up means to me not contributing to the discussion at all. I don't think that's how you meant it. But you can't listen if you're always talking, so I get men need to listen, but at the same time, they should be encouraged to speak. And if what they're saying is wrong, challenge them. But challenge their ideas, not their right to speak.

I think with a lot of subjects that's true. Some changes to women's rights can't be achieved without men's support, and to gain that support, we need participation.

But there are some subjects men could speak about that they probably shouldn't. Or, more specifically, they should let women have the last word. Things like how difficult pregnancy or childbirth are. Things like the emotional toll of having an abortion vs. an unwanted pregnancy. How certain forms of harassment are perceived by women. Basically, the sphere of things that are experienced solely by women, imo. Because when a woman voices her opinion about things that she has, is, will, or simply can experience, and a man who never has and could never possibly experience them tells her she's wrong, that's one of the times he probably should have been quiet.

DancingMaenid · Jun 16, 2015

I think anyone can be a feminist regardless of gender. Indeed, I think it's good for people to express support for causes that they agree with but don't necessarily have a huge stake in. Personally, I don't care for "feminist ally" because I don't like the amount of separation it denotes. Unlike being female, which is innate, being a feminist is a belief.

That said, I also think that one of the goals of feminism is to give women a voice. In that regard, I understand the concern some feminists have about male feminists dominating the discourse or entering into spaces where women may feel safer with other women.

I don't think a man calling himself a feminist or writing a book is a problem, though, and I suspect a lot of the people "crucifying" him are looking for a fight or have a very rigid view of feminism.

kuwisdelu · Jun 16, 2015

Who is the intended audience?

"Mansplaining" is usually defined as being directed toward women.

I'd assume the target audience of a book about masculinity would be other men?

CrastersBabies · Jun 16, 2015

Men can absolutely be feminists. Most men are feminists but don't refer to themselves as such because of a fear of being labeled a "pussy" by other men or people who think "feminism" means misandry. Part of me gets that it's difficult to come up against that sort of stigma because the word has been twisted, sadly so, by ignorant folks who truly do feel that women are lesser and need to be subordinate.

I'm a proud feminist. I believe that males can be feminists. I'm glad when they are. It makes me have hope. I think men have a right to talk about feminism, about womens' rights. To advocate.

All of the above said, I would not be against a new term. People have knee-jerk, toddler-like reactions to the word out of sheer, 100% ignorance. They're so caught up ON the word itself that they can't even begin to consider the root of it all includes the idea that a person’s gender does not define who they are or their worth; that being a woman [or a man] should not put a person at an overall – and especially institutionalized – disadvantage.

I would outwardly contradict anyone telling a man that they cannot have an opinion or talk about feminism--regardless of where they stood on any political spectrum.

The issue is when men think they need to debate every part of a woman's plight because they "just don't get what all the fuss is about," and their idea of "discussion" is to minimize what women go through as the non-dominant gender. That's when things get shitty.

kuwisdelu · Jun 16, 2015

I'm certainly a feminist. And I don't really care what other people think about it.

kuwisdelu · Jun 16, 2015

I think there are plenty of "men's issues" that men can and should discuss (for example, fatherhood) but I see pretty much all of them as being completely orthogonal and unrelated to feminist issues. I don't really see what feminism and masculinity have to do with one another.

Same goes for "women's issues", actually, to a certain extent. For example, some issues related to motherhood will very much be related to gender equality, while other issues related to motherhood might have nothing to do with gender equality.

CrastersBabies · Jun 16, 2015

I do think it's a great idea for men to discuss masculinity: what that means and how the idea is progressing or devolving. Men have some amazingly shitty things to deal with, including but not limited to unrealistic ideals, stereotypes, etc.

kuwisdelu · Jun 16, 2015

I would like to discuss the silly notion that all men should aspire to have bodybuilder physiques. No thank you.

Usher · Jun 16, 2015

Feminism is about equality for me so of course men can be feminists if they can't then I want no part of it. For me it is about those who are men, women and those inbetween are respected for who they are and given the same opportunities in life.

As well as women gaining more rights and making in roads in male dominated careers for me it's also about men getting proper rights in the areas where they are lacking and making in roads in female dominated careers. I love it when I see a male nursery worker or midwife etc

Fruitbat · Jun 16, 2015

I dunno. When I want to write something that might get a bunch of flak I don't feel like putting up with, I just use a pen name. So I'm not sure what his point is. Write it or don't, who cares.

Anyway, what I don't like is men who go about announcing to women that they are feminists, like they expect a cookie or something. Really?! You think we have rights? Well now, aren't you exceptional!

Roxxsmom · Jun 16, 2015

CrastersBabies said:
I do think it's a great idea for men to discuss masculinity: what that means and how the idea is progressing or devolving. Men have some amazingly shitty things to deal with, including but not limited to unrealistic ideals, stereotypes, etc.

Agreed. But I'll admit that "men talking about masculinity" is one of those things that makes the back of my neck prickle a bit, because it's become a dogwhistle in some quarters for lambasting feminism and blaming it for undermining the male "role and purpose." I've had conversations with people who are concerned with the "male virtues" for instance who actually blame issues like rape and deadbeat dads on the fact that strong women are making men feel not needed, so they become hostile towards women and feel like women can raise kids without them.

Hmmm, so rape and deadbeat dads never existed before modern feminism took hold, I guess.

The deprivation of the male's "natural role" of protector of woman usually comes out at some point (ignoring the fact that men are generally talking about protecting women from other men, or even guarding the "virtue" of women like it was a precious resource). There always seems to be a point where traditional gender roles are asserted as natural and normal and something we should return to.

The proof will be in the pudding, as they say. I'm also getting a bit sick of hearing people say things like, "Men need to do X, Y and X" and men "Want A, B, and C" in ways that imply that all men are the same and that women don't also need to do X, Y, and Z or want A, B. and C.

BenPanced · Jun 16, 2015

Considering how much the ideal of "masculinity" and what gender is/means have changed since the last century alone, this could probably be a good historical discussion. However, it sounds like some people have misinterpreted what "masculinity" means and how it threatens their personal space, so they have to block any rational discussion and attack anybody who asks any questions to clarify their stance (I never accepted "because I said so" when I was 9, so I'm really not going to accept it now that I'm almost 51). Just let him release his book; the world is so big and wide, it should be easy for people to ignore.

Celia Cyanide · Jun 16, 2015

He got hate on twitter? Does he know what women get on Twitter when they tweet about feminism?

Liosse de Velishaf · Jun 16, 2015

I don't understand where the hate is coming from. Nothing actually mentioned in the article seems like it should be triggering hate from feminists, unless they're the really hardcore radical anti-men type, in which case ignore them.

Celia Cyanide · Jun 16, 2015

It's hard to tell, but I think the people commenting are saying they don't believe this guy is a feminist. Not that men can't be feminists.

CassandraW · Jun 16, 2015

Vince? Did we break up?

Matt Haig gets hate on Twitter for planning book about masculinity

Can men be feminists? Can men talk about men's issues without it being oppressive to women?

Men can and should be feminists

No, only women are feminists.

Men can be allies, but not feminists.

All men are pigs.

Men and women should be segregated, only interacting to create babies. In a lab.

A discussion of masculinity should be welcome if it's thoughtful

It would be oppressive and mansplaining.

When it comes to women's issues, men should shut up and listen only

Silencing men on any issue is wrong, same with women.

Men can talk, but not disagree with what the women say on women's issues

As a man who has a mother/sister/wife/daughters other females I love, equal treatment of women is ve

Women telling men to shut up is the same as men telling women to shut up

This is an important topic and all people should discuss, challenge but also listen.

This thread will get locked at some point or another because of men being oppressive.

I'm not a feminist, I'm an eggplant.

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Perpetually confused

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