[Writers' Svcs] Randall Andrews / Writers World Boot Camp

I just checked to make sure, and yes, I was and am looking at the correct guy. In the book with the black cover, the first damn page has this -

I was a father many times over, most recently a new dad again, so when my peers are waving kids goodbye, lifting grandkids, or setting off on vacation alone with their spouses, I worry about the lessons needed for a four year old on how to respect a two year olds' space.

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and this

I shook my head, "No, you're the writer."

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and this

"...Call me selfish but anything else you do and I am nothing more than a figment of your imagination."

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Randomly selected from skimming the first page. I'm pretty sure there's more.

No editor produces this many errors - I had to stop myself from correctly punctuating the longest excerpt above - and certainly none would allow something with this many errors to be printed with his or her name on it. He should not be claiming he can edit, or teach people editing or grammar or anything in that realm.

I am not going to argue with a single thing you said, TheAmir, because you are 100% right. I don't know why folks tend to get so rabid in defending him because, honestly, it makes it look like he can't defend himself sometimes and also doesn't reflect well on him. I've never had anyone dogpile me when I've disagreed with him, but I have seen it happen to other people, and it makes me wince every time I see it.

His site being such a mess doesn't help his reputation, and I know it's hurting his business because folks are seeing that and, like Cornflake said, it makes him look like he can't write. As someone who has read and seen a great deal of his writing and editing (as well as having been edited by him) I know he can do it, but that doesn't help other people have confidence in his abilities. Particularly when he doesn't display them through his website well.

I know none of you have reason to just go off my word for his skills because you don't know me and have no barometer for my skill as a writer or for my honesty. I respect and understand that. I just hope that people are willing to suspend immediate dismissal of him as a writer, editor, or publisher based on his inability to build or maintain a website.

TheGreySentinel said:

I am not going to argue with a single thing you said, TheAmir, because you are 100% right. I don't know why folks tend to get so rabid in defending him because, honestly, it makes it look like he can't defend himself sometimes and also doesn't reflect well on him. I've never had anyone dogpile me when I've disagreed with him, but I have seen it happen to other people, and it makes me wince every time I see it.

His site being such a mess doesn't help his reputation, and I know it's hurting his business because folks are seeing that and, like Cornflake said, it makes him look like he can't write. As someone who has read and seen a great deal of his writing and editing (as well as having been edited by him) I know he can do it, but that doesn't help other people have confidence in his abilities. Particularly when he doesn't display them through his website well.

I know none of you have reason to just go off my word for his skills because you don't know me and have no barometer for my skill as a writer or for my honesty. I respect and understand that. I just hope that people are willing to suspend immediate dismissal of him as a writer, editor, or publisher based on his inability to build or maintain a website.

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We're not talking about building or maintaining a website though; we're talking about straight-up writing.

All the errors in my post above are from his published book - the first freaking page of his published book.

It's not that his website is old or not maintained. It's that the writing on it, which he presumably produced, is a hot mess.

If his own book looks like that, and his own writing on his own website is like that, well, no, why would anyone believe he can edit, much less teach anyone else to? He clearly can't.

Your assertion that no editor produces that many errors is incorrect. Clearly you haven't read my WIP, LOL!

That said, I haven't read his books. I have interacted with him over the last year or two a lot, and he's done work for me, and he is not a hack. You can hate on him all you want, and you can say whatever you like - you're certainly entitled to develop an opinion. But I have worked with him for a long while now, and he has taught me more about writing than every college class I ever took.

Your examples of "bad writing" confuse me, though. The first sentence isn't grammatically incorrect. It's long, but not incorrect so far as I can tell. The second one looks like a typo, and the third - well, out of context I can't tell whether it's something that wasn't edited for clarity or if it's something I'd need to read the rest of the sentence to understand. Those are hardly, to my mind, egregious.

TheGreySentinel said:

Your assertion that no editor produces that many errors is incorrect. Clearly you haven't read my WIP, LOL!

That said, I haven't read his books. I have interacted with him over the last year or two a lot, and he's done work for me, and he is not a hack. You can hate on him all you want, and you can say whatever you like - you're certainly entitled to develop an opinion. But I have worked with him for a long while now, and he has taught me more about writing than every college class I ever took.

Your examples of "bad writing" confuse me, though. The first sentence isn't grammatically incorrect. It's long, but not incorrect so far as I can tell. The second one looks like a typo, and the third - well, out of context I can't tell whether it's something that wasn't edited for clarity or if it's something I'd need to read the rest of the sentence to understand. Those are hardly, to my mind, egregious.

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Ok...

I was a father many times over, most recently a new dad again, so when my peers are waving kids goodbye, lifting grandkids, or setting off on vacation alone with their spouses, I worry about the lessons needed for a four year old on how to respect a two year olds' space.

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This changes tense, oddly, has phrasing that might be regional or dialectical, but is not standard English (waving kids goodbye), and is missing four hyphens (four-year-old; two-year-olds'). The phrasing 'lessons needed ... on,' is also making me twitch.

The second might be a typo, in which case we're back to his claim to be an editor, or, considering I saw the same incorrect punctuation elsewhere, a sign he doesn't know how to tag dialogue.

The third -

...Call me selfish but anything else you do and I am nothing more than a figment of your imagination."

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is a full sentence that makes no earthly sense. If you can parse that, fine, but I can't.

I stand by that no editor produces the number or type of mistakes he's got *everyplace*. I've known a slew of them; not one could do that without being battered with a cast-iron frying pan first.

"Waving" is a gerund - that isn't a verb tense change. It's a common misconception, but it isn't a tense error.

I can't speak to the others, and again - that is contrary to my experience with him.

If I'm understanding Cornflake correctly, the tense change doesn't have to do with the "waving" but with the "I was a father" and "when my peers are." If the entire book is in past tense (retrospective) than the "was a father" makes sense. But if it is in present tense, when did he stop being a father? (As for the "waving," Cornflake is saying (I think) that "waving kids goodbye" is non-standard compared to "waving goodbye to their kids.")

I agree with Cornflake's description of the errors, though.

Although, TheGreySentinel, it's very true that someone doesn't have to be great at something to be a great teacher of that thing. It sounds like you've learned a lot from him, and that's great. But his writing doesn't seem to be up to par on its own.

The 'most recently a new dad again' bit is dodgy too. And is 'waving' in that sentence really a gerund?

ETA: A good teacher should apply what s/he practices. A writing teacher's writing should not be full of basic errors.

TheGreySentinel said:

"Waving" is a gerund - that isn't a verb tense change. It's a common misconception, but it isn't a tense error.

I can't speak to the others, and again - that is contrary to my experience with him.

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That wasn't the tense change I was talking about, nor is 'waving,' a gerund in that sentence.

Thedrellum said:

If I'm understanding Cornflake correctly, the tense change doesn't have to do with the "waving" but with the "I was a father" and "when my peers are." If the entire book is in past tense (retrospective) than the "was a father" makes sense. But if it is in present tense, when did he stop being a father? (As for the "waving," Cornflake is saying (I think) that "waving kids goodbye" is non-standard compared to "waving goodbye to their kids.")

I agree with Cornflake's description of the errors, though.

Although, TheGreySentinel, it's very true that someone doesn't have to be great at something to be a great teacher of that thing. It sounds like you've learned a lot from him, and that's great. But his writing doesn't seem to be up to par on its own.

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Exactly this is what I meant - thanks for explaining TD.

Again, my problem isn't that his writing is a mess. There are good writers who need a heavy hand with editing. My problem is he not only claims to be an editor, but claims to be able to teach people to edit, to understand the rules of English grammar, and other related things he cannot grasp on his own.

I am afraid to post here and might delete this. He will not let someone leave the boot camp without days and days of harassment even on my FB page by one of his staff and his groupies. I wanted to just drop out a week into month two. I didn't ask for a refund. I just wanted to walk away. Now I am afraid to post that he was nasty to me daily in messages until I figured out how to block him. Someone from this thread harassed me as well. If the harassment follows me here I am contacting the police.

This is unacceptable. I can see now why they've got their reputation.

A Boot Camp former student said:

...He will not let someone leave the boot camp without days and days of harassment even on my FB page by one of his staff and his groupies. I wanted to just drop out a week into month two. I didn't ask for a refund. I just wanted to walk away. Now I am afraid to post that he was nasty to me daily in messages until I figured out how to block him. Someone from this thread harassed me as well. If the harassment follows me here I am contacting the police.

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Holy crap. I have to look back over my notes, but this may be a whole new data point on Filigree's Rule. Bad guru: do not harass your clients. People talk.

Speaking of which, please let the AW mods know who harassed you from this thread.

Seconding what Filigree said. Please let the mods know what's going on.

Just as an aside to the passionate defenders of the aforementioned writing service: your passion does you credit, but your application does not. Even worse, it can rebound and reflect badly on the person you are trying to support. Ad Hominem attacks and direct stalking are *not* the best way toward a reasoned discourse.

Reading one's own press

I'm not one to stray far from my sites, simply because I have several I admin; however, I'd like to clear a few things up. To Cornflake, the website with my name is not administered by me, nor is that my language. Someone offered me the service, said, "Here, let me show you." Wrote it up herself, and I've not heard from her since. To the stalking charge, I can post EXACTLY what was sent. She left after a rather snarky response to her long winded reply that I didn't like spanking romance and therefore was too insistent that her opening shouldn't be a throwaway. I believe a hook is a hook is a hook. She said she was leaving because her mentor told her that she was doing just fine with her opening. I told her I thought she was getting bad advice. Two days later, (8/11) after her departure (and our only communication) she sent me a message that I had sent a message out to "several others" regarding her telling them to leave. That wasn't true, I actually "received" several messages from others about her telling them to leave. My simple and ONLY message to her, after she actually left, was, "Funny, I sent those that sent me YOUR MESSAGES sienna. So don't play all innocent. Would you like to read what YOU WROTE TO MY STUDENTS?" (EOM) That was the only time I spoke to her. As far as not wanting writers to leave, I anticipate attrition. If no one left, the shear volume would be hard to handle. So the idea that I would beg someone to stay doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't go after people. I will respond though.
I'm not here to defend myself against anything you might say or have heard. That just makes me out to be the horse's ass, and I get that. I have to live on the strength of what the authors I work with think. I get repeat business, and I get referral business, so I must be doing something well. (As for the essays done at lunchtime, that a good friend published, I have no excuse. Flog me at your leisure, I deserve it. I gave them to her 'as is' and she printed them. I have 8,000 essays and seldom give them a second look. They are always written at lunch or before breakfast, done quickly and with more of a poetic slant. As for what went out there online, I'm an old school writer and editor and couldn't tell you zip about e-books. I had no idea those books would be anything more than my recreational writing. However, don't confuse that with what I do with my clients.)
There, you've heard from me. Great day to all of you. Peace.

Randall Andrews said:

I'm not one to stray far from my sites, simply because I have several I admin; however, I'd like to clear a few things up. To Cornflake, the website with my name is not administered by me, nor is that my language. Someone offered me the service, said, "Here, let me show you." Wrote it up herself, and I've not heard from her since. To the stalking charge, I can post EXACTLY what was sent. She left after a rather snarky response to her long winded reply that I didn't like spanking romance and therefore was too insistent that her opening shouldn't be a throwaway. I believe a hook is a hook is a hook. She said she was leaving because her mentor told her that she was doing just fine with her opening. I told her I thought she was getting bad advice. Two days later, (8/11) after her departure (and our only communication) she sent me a message that I had sent a message out to "several others" regarding her telling them to leave. That wasn't true, I actually "received" several messages from others about her telling them to leave. My simple and ONLY message to her, after she actually left, was, "Funny, I sent those that sent me YOUR MESSAGES sienna. So don't play all innocent. Would you like to read what YOU WROTE TO MY STUDENTS?" (EOM) That was the only time I spoke to her. As far as not wanting writers to leave, I anticipate attrition. If no one left, the shear volume would be hard to handle. So the idea that I would beg someone to stay doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't go after people. I will respond though.
I'm not here to defend myself against anything you might say or have heard. That just makes me out to be the horse's ass, and I get that. I have to live on the strength of what the authors I work with think. I get repeat business, and I get referral business, so I must be doing something well. (As for the essays done at lunchtime, that a good friend published, I have no excuse. Flog me at your leisure, I deserve it. I gave them to her 'as is' and she printed them. I have 8,000 essays and seldom give them a second look. They are always written at lunch or before breakfast, done quickly and with more of a poetic slant. As for what went out there online, I'm an old school writer and editor and couldn't tell you zip about e-books. I had no idea those books would be anything more than my recreational writing. However, don't confuse that with what I do with my clients.)
There, you've heard from me. Great day to all of you. Peace.

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So you had no idea the book, "Conversations," that contains what appears to be a two-page acknowledgement from you and was published by you (and is also sold on your website), would be anything more than "recreational writing?" You also didn't write the blog posts or biography or anything else on the website that bears your name. Okie then.

How someone claiming to be an editor could make the errors in even "recreational writing" is a bit beyond me, but I don't understand the rest either, so...

oh why get into this.

cornflake said:

So you had no idea the book, "Conversations," that contains what appears to be a two-page acknowledgement from you and was published by you (and is also sold on your website), would be anything more than "recreational writing?" You also didn't write the blog posts or biography or anything else on the website that bears your name. Okie then.

How someone claiming to be an editor could make the errors in even "recreational writing" is a bit beyond me, but I don't understand the rest either, so...

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yes, I'm saying the site is not my work. As I said before, I'm not here to debate what constitutes what an editor will or won't do in their personal essays, only that my clients get quality work, and their books are never criticized for punctuation or grammar. Have a great day.

Randall Andrews said:

yes, I'm saying the site is not my work. As I said before, I'm not here to debate what constitutes what an editor will or won't do in their personal essays, only that my clients get quality work, and their books are never criticized for punctuation or grammar. Have a great day.

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I wouldn't let anyone release writing under my name unless I'd written it, but to each his own.

I assume that you had nothing to do with a book titled "Never Alone," given the errors in it.

Randall, if this site isn't your work and does not represent you, perhaps you should delete the link from your editing services FB page. It's getting very confusing.

This is just really weird, methinks.

More than any other thing: Author's #1 Rule: don't air dirty laundry on the Internet. I mean, you even said it yourself: you don't need to defend yourself, you have your business. Except defending yourself is exactly what you're doing. And what's more, you're posting details of people's project critiques and mentoring in a public forum, details of private messages, and stuff about who sent who which insult. It really, really doesn't matter. Just.... don't do that. It's a low blow to whoever you're working with. No mentor or critter I know and respect would do that. Ever. Sienna didn't do that. She just mentioned her experience, which presumably she's allowed to do, especially as a customer, right? So why the chase after her? It just validates what she was complaining about. And that alone isn't an acceptable way to conduct business in public, never mind the rest of it.

siennabloom, I meant to say before that I do hope you'll stick around. I looked through some of your old threads where you were looking for a mentor. You don't need to pay for that kind of thing--it's usually best not to, as maybe this experience is proving. AW has all kinds of people who are more than happy to crit (even gently, if need be... I am frequently mistaken for a prehistoric carnivore but I actually like broccoli, for instance*) and answer any questions. But mostly, writing is one of those things that the more you do it, the better you'll get. Just be honest with yourself and seek out help when you need it. Nobody worth listening to is going to chase you off.


(Please note: I do not like broccoli. Why can I not buy chicken these days? Where is chicken? Sushi will also do. I'm really not picky. ...sushi....)

Thank you VeryBigBeard,

I suspected the attacks would continue here if I said anything. All I wanted was to be able to walk away and be left alone. But here, he continues to post things about me that can't be verified. It is just his word against mine. The only thing I can say is that I didn't ask for a refund. I just wanted then and now to be left alone. Someone should be able to walk away without being afraid of public mistreatment. Others in his boot camp can see how he is treating me and I am concerned that they are too afraid to stop sending him money or else he will treat others the same way.

I did not ask others to leave the boot camp. I repeatedly stated that he may be helpful to others but is not the right fit for me. He posted lies about me above and I am sick of the libel.

Again, I just want to be left alone. I have asked him privately and publically. I am asking again.

VeryBigBeard said:

This is just really weird, methinks.

More than any other thing: Author's #1 Rule: don't air dirty laundry on the Internet. I mean, you even said it yourself: you don't need to defend yourself, you have your business. Except defending yourself is exactly what you're doing. And what's more, you're posting details of people's project critiques and mentoring in a public forum, details of private messages, and stuff about who sent who which insult. It really, really doesn't matter. Just.... don't do that. It's a low blow to whoever you're working with. No mentor or critter I know and respect would do that. Ever. Sienna didn't do that. She just mentioned her experience, which presumably she's allowed to do, especially as a customer, right? So why the chase after her? It just validates what she was complaining about. And that alone isn't an acceptable way to conduct business in public, never mind the rest of it.

siennabloom, I meant to say before that I do hope you'll stick around. I looked through some of your old threads where you were looking for a mentor. You don't need to pay for that kind of thing--it's usually best not to, as maybe this experience is proving. AW has all kinds of people who are more than happy to crit (even gently, if need be... I am frequently mistaken for a prehistoric carnivore but I actually like broccoli, for instance*) and answer any questions. But mostly, writing is one of those things that the more you do it, the better you'll get. Just be honest with yourself and seek out help when you need it. Nobody worth listening to is going to chase you off.


(Please note: I do not like broccoli. Why can I not buy chicken these days? Where is chicken? Sushi will also do. I'm really not picky. ...sushi....)

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See MacAllister's post above? Mac owns AW. If someone here starts sending you private messages or rep comments or anything piling on, send a quick note to Mac, or any of the other mods, or use the report button.

I think it's a good thing in general for Randall to post in the thread and I'm glad he did because it lets other prospective authors see who he is and what he offers and it gives him a chance to act on feedback. Personally, I think what you've said and the way he's responded speaks for itself. Sure it's annoying that he's said all these things but they're not going to affect you. As hard as it is sometimes, the best thing now everything is out there is probably to let appearances speak for themselves. Eventually he'll move on when you're no longer a receptive target.