Do words matter?

tylermarab1987 · Jun 15, 2015

Does the diction an author chooses matter, or does the story take precedence over everything? A little of both perhaps?

I was reading an article on creative writing courses and came across this quote:

A lot of them [students] don't really understand," said Kureishi. "It's the story that really helps you. They worry about the writing and the prose and you think: 'Fuck the prose, no one's going to read your book for the writing, all they want to do is find out what happens in the story next. (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/mar/04/creative-writing-courses-waste-of-time-hanif-kureishi).

I think he's right, especially with today's readers. There's just so much media and entertainment authors are competing against. Most readers nowadays probably only care about the story and what happens next. I think that's a shame. To me story matters, style and execution matters as well. That's what the masters of classic lit had over many of today's authors; they could tell a good story using beautiful carefully crafted diction; take writers like Charles Dickens, Oscar Wilde, and Nathaniel Hawthorne for example."A Tale of Two Cities," "The Portrait of Dorian Grey," "The Scarlet Letter," are all fascinating literature. They're not only good stories but are well-written with beautiful, beautiful, beautiful carefully crafted language.

I think the best fiction, at least IMO, is fiction that combines both elements of genre and literary fiction. That is to say, good plot and story with well crafted language. There are many contemporary authors who accomplish this: Rowling, McCarthy, Victoria Schwab (you should check out "The Archived" if you write YA urban fantasy) so don't think I bashing contemporary lit in favor of classic lit. I'm not trying to be one of those guys. I even think "Divergent" accomplished what I'm speaking of.

I get what the author and instructor in the article was saying, though. Casual readers would probably rather read a poorly written story that was enthralling than a well-written boring story. That's what we folks who write "literary" fiction need to understand. Literary fiction wasn't always boring.

rwm4768 · Jun 15, 2015

For me, story is much more important than the prose itself. Obviously, I'll struggle with bad prose, but as long as the prose is at least competent, I don't care that much about it. I like it when the prose fades into the background and allows me to enjoy the story. Of course, that requires writing skill. Not all great prose is meant to be noticed.

It's funny that you mention Dickens and Hawthorne. I found both ruined decent stories with tedious prose.

Once! · Jun 15, 2015

Depends.

It depends on the genre. Some genres work best when they are written relatively lean. The reader doesn't want to bother with too much description or too many high-falutin' words. They just want to get on with the action, damnit!

Other times it pays to slow down and luxuriate. There is no right or wrong - just what is right or wrong for a particular genre or scene. It becomes more of an issue if the level of description doesn't fit the context or isn't done well.

It is certainly true that most readers don't notice individual words as much as writers do. Readers generally bounce over words lightly and take in paragraphs and chapters and scenes. They want to know about plot and character. Writers on the other hand obsess about whether they are starting too many paragraphs with "The" or if they are saying "said" too often.

Do modern readers have less patience than previous generations? Probably. Some of them. Sometimes.

Let me let you into a secret. One evening, Mrs Once and I were in bed talking about a particular book that we had both read. I hadn't enjoyed it because the writing was immature. There were too many "gushed Sophie, breathlessly" moments and it dripped with purple prose. My wife (not a writer) hadn't noticed any of that. She enjoyed it because character X had done action Y to secondary character Z.

Good book or bad book? That depends on which side of the duvet you are.

LJackson · Jun 15, 2015

By degree, I think. To me, story trumps writing, until the writing becomes in-cohesive. I can read a good story and just frown at the bad writing. I cannot stomach one page of confusing writing, and in this case, I won't know whether it has a good story. One famed book comes to mind... After reading the hundred, "he is so hot," and "my little goddess tapping her little feet," I finally had to say enough was enough. But really the reason I put down the book was not because the awful writing, but because I despised both main characters with all my might, and I can no longer live in the female character's head. My husband, on the other hand, read on because he wanted to know the juicy details promised in the beginning of the book, and was subsequently disappointed when it never happened.

Ambrosia · Jun 15, 2015

It's not just the story but how you tell the story, imo. That's why not everyone is an author and not every author is a good author.

So it all matters. Writing is more than craft to me. It is also art. Learning the craft is important. Refining it into its artistic form keeps the pages turning. Give me a poorly written book and I don't care how good the story is because I won't finish it.

BethS · Jun 15, 2015

Of course the words matter. At the very least, they make the difference between a good story poorly told and a good story well told. And when it comes to success, the latter (in most cases) has the advantage over the former.

Styjah · Jun 15, 2015

Yes, the words matter, but no, the reader doesn't care. The reader "sees" the story, they don't stop to think about the words, but the right words make the story. Our readers survive on information given to them by others in text. From text messages to facebook, so much of how we interact is with words. We've learned how to tell if the other person is angry by the "tone"... but what many don't realize is that it's the words chosen, the order they are put in, and the structural emphasis.

The point is, the reader knows this instinctually. They typically do not think about it, but they feel it. As an author, it's our job to get the right words, and to make the experience closer, more personal, more emotional, more immediate. It's why the author's enthusiasm comes through, and can be felt in the story. We, the writers, have to worry about our words, but our readers won't. They want the story - and yet they will love the story because of the work we put into using the best words we could.

CathleenT · Jun 15, 2015

So, I want to make it clear up front that I think it's important to tell a good story and use the right words to tell it.

However.

From the articles I've read by other writers and agents, you can have a good story told with journeyman skill, and it'll sell. You can't sell a flawed plot and try to cover it with beautiful prose. It's like putting a fresh coat of paint over rotting wood.

It's one of the reasons I've been doing intense research into story structure. I can write interesting prose. My characters are well sketched. But I can't just sit down and go by the seat of my pants and hope the story comes out right. It doesn't always work, and it creates a ton of revision. And if the revision isn't any more guided than your story, you'll flounder around--tweaking sentences, but never really getting to the heart of what needs to be revised.

The reader has an intuitive grasp of story structure. They can't articulate it the way writers need to (hero's journey, three act structure, etc.), but they know when it's missing and they put the book down. And agents can articulate it, and if your story doesn't have it, it's not worth an R&R (this is from what I've read only--I'm no industry insider).

Bad prose can kill a good story, too. Most romances have a structure that everyone knows, yet bad romances are still written.

But I've come to the conclusion that it's best to nail my story first, at least a basic logline and synopsis, before I write it. That way, I know I'll have something worth fixing when I finish drafting. And as a nice side benefit, my synopsis is already written, and I don't have to sweat bullets over it when I'm done.

Chase · Jun 15, 2015

CathleenT said:
So, I want to make it clear up front that I think it's important to tell a good story and use the right words to tell it.

However.

Agreed. My "however" includes another "and." And clear or at least consistent punctuation. I just finished the latest book by my favorite author. Most careful readers can get used to even the poorest punctuation if the tale's good. But page after page of inconsistencies with commas, semicolons, apostrophes, dashes, and ellipses threw me out of the story way too much. I got through but with gritted teeth.

Roxxsmom · Jun 15, 2015

While I think it's true that most readers of commercial fiction are reading for the story and characters, the way the author uses words can have a huge effect on whether or not the reader cares about those things. Klunky, dull, repetitive prose, or narrative that is confusing, will annoy many readers. They may not understand why your story isn't pulling them in, but they still put it down and don't recommend it to their friends.

Does writing have to be fancy and literary to do a good job of telling a story? Of course not. But it needs to be clear and pleasant to read.

Chase said:
Agreed. My "however" includes another "and." And clear or at least consistent punctuation. I just finished the latest book by my favorite author. Most careful readers can get used to even the poorest punctuation if the tale's good. But page after page of inconsistencies with commas, semicolons, apostrophes, dashes, and ellipses threw me out of the story way too much. I got through but with gritted teeth.

This is awful. That publishers are putting stuff like this out is really, really frustrating. Don't they have line editors anymore? I have put down books by authors I should like (because the story and characters are interesting) because plowing through the writing was like wading through molasses. There was one recently I just abandoned. The author thought it was necessary to filter the crap out of ever scene and to use the pov character's name over and over in ever scene, as if I wasn't capable (as a reader) of knowing whose pov we were in and understanding that we'd stay there until a change was clearly cued.

I can understand a new author making this mistake, but the fact that an editor at a big house would let it go :rant:

to the point of making the story klunky and unreadable. The second one in the series was worse than the first. However, some people like the book and even commend the writing, so I might be missing something.

CathleenT said:
So, I want to make it clear up front that I think it's important to tell a good story and use the right words to tell it.

However.

From the articles I've read by other writers and agents, you can have a good story told with journeyman skill, and it'll sell. You can't sell a flawed plot and try to cover it with beautiful prose. It's like putting a fresh coat of paint over rotting wood.

You'd be surprised at how many popular stories (and movies) have plot holes you can drive a truck through. I think the story structure and character arcs are more important that rickety plot foundations, actually. I know when I read, I gloss over a lot of the "hows" of things. Did it really make sense for that medieval castle to have a sewer system the heroes could use to sneak in? Not really. Do I care if the evil baddy's reasons for wanting to take over the world really make sense? Not Always. Do I worry about how they're feeding that ginormous army? Maybe not.

If I'm picking nits about plot holes, then it's a sign I don't care enough about the characters and their development.

I think one of the things that can be really hard to get right is pacing. There's a rate at which things need to happen, plot elements need to be introduced, hints need to be dropped, conflicts need to occur. Too fast and the reader can't take it all in (or care about the people in the story). Too slow and the reader will put the book down and not come back. It's like a rat pressing a lever for treats. There's an optimum rate of reinforcement that will keep the reader hungry enough to keep on without getting frustrated. But it's not exactly the same for each story, or for each reader.

guttersquid · Jun 15, 2015

I'd like to step in long enough to say that there is no such thing as "today's readers."

Today's readers like this. Today's readers prefer that. Such statements ignore the reality that readers are individuals with as diverse tastes in reading as for music, movies, TV shows, etc. Any effort to corral readers into a single group with singular appetites is fruitless.

tylermarab1987 · Jun 15, 2015

CathleenT said:
So, I want to make it clear up front that I think it's important to tell a good story and use the right words to tell it.

However.

From the articles I've read by other writers and agents, you can have a good story told with journeyman skill, and it'll sell. You can't sell a flawed plot and try to cover it with beautiful prose. It's like putting a fresh coat of paint over rotting wood.

It's one of the reasons I've been doing intense research into story structure. I can write interesting prose. My characters are well sketched. But I can't just sit down and go by the seat of my pants and hope the story comes out right. It doesn't always work, and it creates a ton of revision. And if the revision isn't any more guided than your story, you'll flounder around--tweaking sentences, but never really getting to the heart of what needs to be revised.

The reader has an intuitive grasp of story structure. They can't articulate it the way writers need to (hero's journey, three act structure, etc.), but they know when it's missing and they put the book down. And agents can articulate it, and if your story doesn't have it, it's not worth an R&R (this is from what I've read only--I'm no industry insider).

Bad prose can kill a good story, too. Most romances have a structure that everyone knows, yet bad romances are still written.

But I've come to the conclusion that it's best to nail my story first, at least a basic logline and synopsis, before I write it. That way, I know I'll have something worth fixing when I finish drafting. And as a nice side benefit, my synopsis is already written, and I don't have to sweat bullets over it when I'm done.

"Bad prose can kill a good story, too."

On the flipside I once read a post over at scribophile that said "The Hunger Games" is the perfect example of writing getting in the way of the story. I just had a story critiqued on another site; the critter said, "Your word choice is pretty high up there and might put off some readers."

rwm4768 · Jun 15, 2015

tylermarab1987 said:
"Bad prose can kill a good story, too."

On the flipside I once read a post over at scribophile that said "The Hunger Games" is the perfect example of writing getting in the way of the story.

Really? If it's such a perfect example of writing getting in the way of the story, why is it so popular and so well-loved? The writing might have bothered that particular person, but it seems to me like it was the right kind of writing to make the book hugely successful.

guttersquid · Jun 15, 2015

Stepping in again.

Is story more important than the writing? Well, sometimes.

My two favorite writers are Stephen King and Elmore Leonard, but when I pick up one of their books, I know the odds that I'll like the story is about 50/50. But will I like the writing? You bet I will! One-hundred percent of the time.

Roxxsmom · Jun 15, 2015

guttersquid said:
I'd like to step in long enough to say that there is no such thing as "today's readers."

Today's readers like this. Today's readers prefer that. Such statements ignore the reality that readers are individuals with as diverse tastes in reading as for music, movies, TV shows, etc. Any effort to corral readers into a single group with singular appetites is fruitless.

This ^

It's so easy to overgeneralize. If readers were monolithic and all liked the same thing, books would all be the same. From what I can tell, they're not, even within a given genre. Without digressing into details about the strife that's currently plaguing my own favorite genre (SF and F) lately, I think one of the things behind a certain issue is that readers are very diverse and like different things (and have been for quite a while), and some people are only waking up to the fact that a book shelved in the SF and F section could contain many different kinds of plots, themes, characters, and stories and be written in a variety of styles, ranging from literary to pulp.

The problem, from some people's perspectives, is that "today's readers" are too diverse in their tastes.

I do think story is important too. I have no interest, for instance, in Christian/inspirational fiction, because the themes, plots, and underlying premises just do not inspire me. The odds of my picking and getting into such a story, well written or not, is practically nil.

But there have been many stories I should have liked, because they encompass the kinds of characters, themes, and plots I do find inspiring. Yet I just couldn't plow through the prose.

So good writing probably won't make a reader love a story that's not their thing. But bad writing sure as heck can kill what should have been a good story.

dawinsor · Jun 15, 2015

The story is made of words, so of course they matter. The question is how. Mostly, I think, they can't get in the way. Beyond that, it's gravy.

Filigree · Jun 15, 2015

tylermarab1987 said:
I just had a story critiqued on another site; the critter said, "Your word choice is pretty high up there and might put off some readers."

I had to laugh at that. Sorry. I get that occasionally. Depending on my snark level and how friendly I am toward the critter, I might say 'Then I'm not writing it for them.'

Twick · Jun 15, 2015

Roxxsmom said:
This is awful. That publishers are putting stuff like this out is really, really frustrating. Don't they have line editors anymore?

Not like they used to, because people keep on saying that nothing matters but the plot and character. If the general readers don't mind turgid prose or incorrect word usage, why would they care about comma usage?

Anna Spargo-Ryan · Jun 15, 2015

You absolutely can sell a book on its writing merit. That's the part you can't teach. If someone is a truly brilliant word arranger, a great editor can help with their story. If that editor can go back to that writer and say, "Here's what the story needs to do," and that writer can execute it with exceptional prose, that's a win for a publisher.

I won't read shitty writing. I find great writing compelling with or without a great story; I don't find great story compelling if the writing is bad. I like a book to make me think differently or learn something about the craft or just leave me damned heartbroken. That's never happened (to me) with bad writing.

I think this is probably writing ruining reading for me though. I still love watching terrible movies.

kkbe · Jun 15, 2015

Words are important. Duh. So is story. Double-duh. But they're not the same thing. The choice and arrangement of words and yeah, punctuation, blah blah, is the vehicle that drives the story. You don't want to open a book and discover on page three that you just bought a clunker. Nor do you want to get to the end of the book and realize you didn't go anywhere special.

Look at me, bein' all fill-o-sof-i-kal.

I have written different kinds of novels. Used different woids, different voices, to tell stories I think are decent. And I hope my choices--relative to the words I've used, sentence structure and placement, punctuation (or lack thereof), etc., etc.--entertain. Get somebody thinking. Maybe even move somebody.

What I don't want to do is drop the ball, put forth less than my best efforts. If I have a good story, and write it well, maybe I won't disappoint the reader, and I know I won't disappoint myself, which is my own speshul wish, I suppose.

tylermarab1987 · Jun 15, 2015

guttersquid said:
I'd like to step in long enough to say that there is no such thing as "today's readers."

Today's readers like this. Today's readers prefer that. Such statements ignore the reality that readers are individuals with as diverse tastes in reading as for music, movies, TV shows, etc. Any effort to corral readers into a single group with singular appetites is fruitless.

You're absolutely right, I shouldn't generalize like that. Everyone has different taste but there is such a thing as today's readers. Art changes with the times; the people who appreciate art (readers in our case) change with the times also.

I remember reading an article by a published author who wondered if the Internet was rewiring the way we think and read. He claimed his ability to read deeply was diminishing. There's ongoing research studying this. I couldn't find that particular article but he is another http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/306868/

Here's a good quote from the above article:

The Net’s influence doesn’t end at the edges of a computer screen, either. As people’s minds become attuned to the crazy quilt of Internet media, traditional media have to adapt to the audience’s new expectations. Television programs add text crawls and pop-up ads, and magazines and newspapers shorten their articles, introduce capsule summaries, and crowd their pages with easy-to-browse info-snippets

The bold is particularly interesting to me. I've seen a lot of writers in groups such as this site advocating extremely simplistic writing. I posted a work in SYW a long while ago and asked, "Would you keep on reading?" A critter said she would not because I used long sentences.

So there is such a thing as today's readers IMO. The Internet is making us more used to the style of Lee Child (three sentence paragraphs, one page chapters) as opposed to the lit of yestercentury.

_city_ · Jun 15, 2015

I think prose really just bothers writers. There will be books that I'll start that are full of superfluous, bad-phrased, indulgent writing and I can't continue. Then I ask my book-loving engineer friend who can't spell for shit and he'll think they're the best. I just had this conversation with him actually. He couldn't care less about the writing, it's the plot that drives him. Many of today's readers mostly skim anyway. "Gimme the bullet points! Oh this page is mostly description, okay, clothes, sure, next page, oh snap things just got real."

tylermarab1987 · Jun 15, 2015

_city_ said:
I think prose really just bothers writers. There will be books that I'll start that are full of superfluous, bad-phrased, indulgent writing and I can't continue. Then I ask my book-loving engineer friend who can't spell for shit and he'll think they're the best. I just had this conversation with him actually. He couldn't care less about the writing, it's the plot that drives him. Many of today's readers mostly skim anyway. "Gimme the bullet points! Oh this page is mostly description, okay, clothes, sure, next page, oh snap things just got real."

I think this applies to a lot of casual readers. We need to be careful and not forget who we're writing for. I made the comment in one of my writer's group that we need to write for our readers and stop circle jerking and writing for each other; it irked some of them.

tylermarab1987 · Jun 15, 2015

kkbe said:
Words are important. Duh. So is story. Double-duh. But they're not the same thing. The choice and arrangement of words and yeah, punctuation, blah blah, is the vehicle that drives the story. You don't want to open a book and discover on page three that you just bought a clunker. Nor do you want to get to the end of the book and realize you didn't go anywhere special.

Look at me, bein' all fill-o-sof-i-kal.

I have written different kinds of novels. Used different woids, different voices, to tell stories I think are decent. And I hope my choices--relative to the words I've used, sentence structure and placement, punctuation (or lack thereof), etc., etc.--entertain. Get somebody thinking. Maybe even move somebody.

What I don't want to do is drop the ball, put forth less than my best efforts. If I have a good story, and write it well, maybe I won't disappoint the reader, and I know I won't disappoint myself, which is my own speshul wish, I suppose.

"Words are important. Duh. So is story. Double-duh"

I don't think it's that simple as far as words are concerned. There's no right answer, only opinions. I posted a quote from an award winning novelist and creative writing professor who basically said and I quote, "Fuck your prose, it's the story that matters." I know what matters to me. I want to be a wordsmith who can tell a badass story with beautiful language. When I'm writing fantasy I want to be a George RR Martin; when I'm writing literary fiction I want to be a Victor Hugo. When I started this thread, I really was asking what is important to you?

When I asked are words important (of course they are important, dummy, you need to write the story durpty durp) I was asking do they actually matter to the majority of casual readers (yes today's casual readers). The answer is obvious isn't it?

Mark Twain said: “The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.”

So words matter, right? A fine author said so.

Elmore Leonard said: "If it sounds like writing, I rewrite it." (Couldn't think of a better quote on the subject at hand; I'm sure they're some out there.)

So words mattered to him but for different reasons. I've seen several posts on here advocating your prose take a backseat, even be "invisible." Basically these people think words shouldn't matter, in fact the reader shouldn't notice them.

I want the reader to see my brushstrokes, some writers don't. And that's fine.

buz · Jun 15, 2015

"Should I aim for my prose to be invisible?" is a wildly different question from "Do words matter?"

Do words matter?

practical experience, FTW

Still confused by shoelaces

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I write

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I agree with Roxxsmom.

practical experience, FTW

I agree with Roxxsmom.

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Huh.

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