The Daily Rejection, Vol. 2

Thank you RLGreenleaf! To add to the confusion I sent out another huge batch of queries today, and got a reply late afternoon from A Big Literary Agent (who I only had the gall to query because I had got to that punch drunk stage where what you are doing ceases to feel real) who once again loved my book, said it "deserves to find a good home", but that he didn't personally feel sufficiently "fired up" about my characters. No mention of problematic prologue (good) but everyone has raved about my characters before, and I thought it was the one indisputable solid good thing in the book! Still, positive personal reply from A Big Agent, so I'm taking that as a win. In fact, if I don't find representation it might well be the high watermark of my publishing career

NotForUsThanks said:

Thank you RLGreenleaf! To add to the confusion I sent out another huge batch of queries today, and got a reply late afternoon from A Big Literary Agent (who I only had the gall to query because I had got to that punch drunk stage where what you are doing ceases to feel real) who once again loved my book, said it "deserves to find a good home", but that he didn't personally feel sufficiently "fired up" about my characters. No mention of problematic prologue (good) but everyone has raved about my characters before, and I thought it was the one indisputable solid good thing in the book! Still, positive personal reply from A Big Agent, so I'm taking that as a win. In fact, if I don't find representation it might well be the high watermark of my publishing career

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Hi NotForUsThanks.

Your characters are probably fine if others are raving about them. There's no such thing as characters (or stories or voice or anything else) that will appeal to all readers/agents since our tastes are so different. Exactly what some love, others will hate. Even the most popular books have plenty who dislike them or are just disinterested.

A positive personal response is very encouraging. You're getting feedback that your work's good, so now you just need to find the agent who falls in love with your characters.

Good luck!

CJ

NotForUsThanks said:

Just got a confusing R on a query. She loved my writing, concept and characters, and she thinks my book has real potential, but she found the (one page) prologue jarring with the following chapters, and therefore couldn't invest in my work enough to offer representation. Why would an easily cut prologue put you off if you loved everything else?

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I think it's because they're overwhelmed with good stories and looking for any reason to reject. Even if most of what they receive is crappy, they still have far more than enough solid material coming in and they have to reject most of that. If anything at all gives them reason to say "no," they will. Since the prologue is right at the beginning, their dislike of it/the feeling of being jarred so soon probably colored their perception more so than something that they might not like later on.

I do think, though, that if our story is the one (of hundreds) that resonates with them more than others, they'll recognize the ease of small fixes like cutting a prologue, and would still take it on.

From your posts, it sounds like you're doing well, but you really just need to find the right match for you - that agent that will fall in love.

NotForUsThanks said:

Just got a confusing R on a query. She loved my writing, concept and characters, and she thinks my book has real potential, but she found the (one page) prologue jarring with the following chapters, and therefore couldn't invest in my work enough to offer representation. Why would an easily cut prologue put you off if you loved everything else?

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This is the kind of rejection that absolutely drives me nuts. It reminds me of the time I once sent in a writing sample for a work-for-hire book, and they rejected it outright because of one (one!) tense mistake and mistaken POV switch and because they felt it "didn't really get going until a few pages in." This was in a first draft that I had all of two weeks to write, and could have literally been corrected in a day. Argh.

RLGreenleaf said:

OK, so this question must have been asked before, and asked not only once, but many times.

A zillion times I am sure!

You look up an agent or publisher's information, and they want you to send them ONLY ONE ms, or ONLY ONE query letter but...

you actually have SEVERAL works that they might possibly be interested in, and which fit the criteria they have given on their website.

So...

how to decide which of your novels will most impress them?

Deep in your gut, you just KNOW that you will send them the wrong one!

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Hi RLGreenleaf.

If both of your manuscripts fit what they want, and you can't really know which they'll likely be more interested in, I'd send them the one that you most want published. If they reject it, you can send the other. But I'd wait awhile so it doesn't appear that you have a bunch of previously rejected manuscripts waiting around to be sent, and so your name's not in their brain as someone they just rejected. Agents do generally encourage other material be sent (or most of my rejections have encouraged that), so they should be good with getting another submission.

Good luck!

CJ

CJSimone said:

I think it's because they're overwhelmed with good stories and looking for any reason to reject. Even if most of what they receive is crappy, they still have far more than enough solid material coming in and they have to reject most of that. If anything at all gives them reason to say "no," they will.

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This is the thought that keeps me awake at night when I think about querying my novel (which is still a ways off). That there's so much competition that it literally has to be PERFECT in every possible way.

Since I'm a human being, I don't know if I'm capable of that. But apparently some writers are.

I'll weigh in here: I think that when an agent really truly loves your work and sees $elling potential in it, they'll be open to fixing minor things like a wonky prologue.

At least, that was my experience with finding my agent. We ended up doing some really intense deep-dive revisions, but she was so excited about the characters and story and writing at the same time. I also ended up applying a lot of the rejection feedback I got during querying towards improving my book, and it definitely helped along the way.

It is frustrating, I know. Over in The Next Circle we experience the same kind of thing with editors (lots of "LOVED IT but wasn't for me") = ??? We get Rs like that all of the time, where they praise your book to the moon and back but still don't buy it, so you're left feeling hopeless and confused.

Hang in there! I agree that agents and editors for that matter are overwhelmed with submissions and they have to reject anything that isn't speaking to them for whatever reason (or, more importantly, what they don't know if they can sell). I try to remember that what doesn't work for one person works perfectly for another.

Clairels said:

This is the thought that keeps me awake at night when I think about querying my novel (which is still a ways off). That there's so much competition that it literally has to be PERFECT in every possible way.

Since I'm a human being, I don't know if I'm capable of that. But apparently some writers are.

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I think it's really more about finding the agent who falls in love with it. Because none of us are perfect and there are no perfect works (including published and popular stories, who reviewers find fault in regularly). Yes, any "mistakes" or other difficulties can give the majority of agents a reason to say "no", but those agents that are the right match will probably see past easily fixed mistakes/issues and be willing to take on a story they fall in love with.

I'd think of it more like we have to make it the best we can, so we don't screw up our chances unnecessarily, but there still is hope that we'll meet up with that agent who will get fired up about it, and see that it (hopefully) has selling potential, and will work with us imperfect writers.

pinkbowvintage said:

I'll weigh in here: I think that when an agent really truly loves your work and sees $elling potential in it, they'll be open to fixing minor things like a wonky prologue.

At least, that was my experience with finding my agent. We ended up doing some really intense deep-dive revisions, but she was so excited about the characters and story and writing at the same time. I also ended up applying a lot of the rejection feedback I got during querying towards improving my book, and it definitely helped along the way.

It is frustrating, I know. Over in The Next Circle we experience the same kind of thing with editors (lots of "LOVED IT but wasn't for me") = ??? We get Rs like that all of the time, where they praise your book to the moon and back but still don't buy it, so you're left feeling hopeless and confused.

Hang in there! I agree that agents and editors for that matter are overwhelmed with submissions and they have to reject anything that isn't speaking to them for whatever reason (or, more importantly, what they don't know if they can sell). I try to remember that what doesn't work for one person works perfectly for another.

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Yep!

CJSimone said:

I think it's really more about finding the agent who falls in love with it. Because none of us are perfect and there are no perfect works (including published and popular stories, who reviewers find fault in regularly). Yes, any "mistakes" or other difficulties can give the majority of agents a reason to say "no", but those agents that are the right match will probably see past easily fixed mistakes/issues and be willing to take on a story they fall in love with.

I'd think of it more like we have to make it the best we can, so we don't screw up our chances unnecessarily, but there still is hope that we'll meet up with that agent who will get fired up about it, and see that it (hopefully) has selling potential, and will work with us imperfect writers.

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Your attitude is absolutely correct and much healthier than mine. Of course, that doesn't mean we won't pull our hair out anyway trying to make it as perfect as possible.

CJSimone - all your comments are spot on. In all those "How to land a literary agent" articles and blog pieces, the general impression given is that if you shine your ms until it is blinding, follow the magic formula for a query letter, and have a great hook, then you will win the prize. But out here in the trenches it is blatantly much more subjective than that. An agent really does have to fall in love with your work warts and all and you can't plan for that. It doesn't matter how much research you do about that agent and what kind of books they represent, that falling in love is down to a personal alchemy that no writer can guess at.

PinkBowVintage - I looked at The Next Circle forum once and vowed never to go there again until I get there in real life - all that agony! And that thing about revision with agents and then with publishing houses... you know, we're told to get an agent we need to present a "finished" ms, polished to within an inch of its life. But then it's quite clear that writers should expect several rounds of punishing edits before publishing day, from the agent, and then in-house editors, so that's kind of confusing. And a little demoralising. I cannot tell you how many hours over how many months I have spent going over and over my ms, and I know that if it gets picked up all that work could be ripped to pieces, and all those hours lost.

You're right, NotForUsThanks. There are books that are wildly amazing, that have excellent queries, and garner multiple offers of rep.

Some of those go on to not sell. I see it happen to people all of the time. Some of those books never get representation, or the rep falls through for one reason or another.

It sounds horrifying, but the bottom line is there is no magic formula. Just like it's hard to predict which book will be the next IT book, or how some truly horrible, badly written books go on to become insane best-sellers (*cough*FiftyShades*cough).

I think the best thing an author can do is have faith in their own work. Relying on agents and editor feedback to make you believe in your writing and your art is fruitless, as it will never come together like you want it to. Be passionate about the stories you tell and advocate for them in your query and in your life. That way, no matter what happens sales-wise, you'll be proud of what you've written.

Oh and you're also right: There is no "finished" MS. Every MS is imperfect. Even the greats, even the bestsellers. That's sort of what makes them fascinating. Like people, they're divisive and flawed.

I truly believe you can over-edit a piece to death, especially in a vain attempt to please other readers/eyes. I've done it. I agonize over it all of the time with my own work. But I have to say, the "best" work I've produced that's gone on to do well has been the work I've had a fiery passion behind. That's the work I know will resonate with someone else, because it resonates with me.

Anyway....*hands out huge glasses of wine and boxes of chocolates to everyone in the trenches* <3 You're amazing for showing up, doing the work, and being here. Keep going!

Clairels said:

Your attitude is absolutely correct and much healthier than mine. Of course, that doesn't mean we won't pull our hair out anyway trying to make it as perfect as possible.

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NotForUsThanks said:

CJSimone - all your comments are spot on. In all those "How to land a literary agent" articles and blog pieces, the general impression given is that if you shine your ms until it is blinding, follow the magic formula for a query letter, and have a great hook, then you will win the prize. But out here in the trenches it is blatantly much more subjective than that. An agent really does have to fall in love with your work warts and all and you can't plan for that. It doesn't matter how much research you do about that agent and what kind of books they represent, that falling in love is down to a personal alchemy that no writer can guess at.

PinkBowVintage - I looked at The Next Circle forum once and vowed never to go there again until I get there in real life - all that agony! And that thing about revision with agents and then with publishing houses... you know, we're told to get an agent we need to present a "finished" ms, polished to within an inch of its life. But then it's quite clear that writers should expect several rounds of punishing edits before publishing day, from the agent, and then in-house editors, so that's kind of confusing. And a little demoralising. I cannot tell you how many hours over how many months I have spent going over and over my ms, and I know that if it gets picked up all that work could be ripped to pieces, and all those hours lost.

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Yeah, I've definitely done some hair pulling trying to get things right, Clairels.

NotForUsThanks, I appreciate your comment. And re: The Next Circle forum, I can't go there either. I'm not ready to even think about that. I need baby steps so I stay in my delusional world where all things are possible.

pinkbowvintage said:

I think the best thing an author can do is have faith in their own work. Relying on agents and editor feedback to make you believe in your writing and your art is fruitless, as it will never come together like you want it to. Be passionate about the stories you tell and advocate for them in your query and in your life.

I have to say, the "best" work I've produced that's gone on to do well has been the work I've had a fiery passion behind. That's the work I know will resonate with someone else, because it resonates with me.

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Really good points here. Naturally, we're the most motivated person for our own works, and especially the ones we're passionate about. It's great if we can find others who are also enthusiastic about it and can make things happen, but usually our own enthusiasm for our own work will be unmatched, so we can use that.

Well I'm on a roll. Just got back a critique from a mentor I managed to bag for the upcoming #PitchWars ... and she raved about my prologue!

Oh and she loves the story and blah blah blah, but the following chapters didn't do it for her, in fact she thought they "dragged". But then other readers have said my opening pages were fast paced and hooked them right in.

I'm not sure getting feedback is necessarily good for a writer's health.

NotForUsThanks said:

Well I'm on a roll. Just got back a critique from a mentor I managed to bag for the upcoming #PitchWars ... and she raved about my prologue!

Oh and she loves the story and blah blah blah, but the following chapters didn't do it for her, in fact she thought they "dragged". But then other readers have said my opening pages were fast paced and hooked them right in.

I'm not sure getting feedback is necessarily good for a writer's health.

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Inconsistent feedback's the worst. Leaves you not knowing what to do. My sympathies.

Sounds almost like your prologue and opening chapters are appealing to different readers. Maybe consider how well they go together?

CJSimone said:

Inconsistent feedback's the worst. Leaves you not knowing what to do. My sympathies.

Sounds almost like your prologue and opening chapters are appealing to different readers. Maybe consider how well they go together?

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I've been thinking that overnight. It's a women's fiction / crime fiction crossover - a woman gets into desperate circumstances and gets drawn into crime. The one page prologue is set in the future when she's in it up to her neck, and then the opening chapters goes back to three months before when she's in dire straights, and then you follow her on her journey into crime. I want the reader to ask at the beginning - how does she get from one place to the other. It's an often used formula for tv drama and films, but crime and women's books obviously have their own formulas - and this book doesn't follow them.

If I cut the prologue people will start reading the book thinking it's women's fiction (only because the opening chapters are about a women in real life circumstances, nothing about its tone or my MC suggests it's a cozy romance), and the gangster stuff (which is the main part of the book) will come as a shock. But if I leave the prologue in, then people think GANGSTERS and they don't get why we're suddenly reading about a women who is about to lose her house.

You know, if my MC was a man, I don't think anyone would have a problem with my opening pages. I think the fact that my MC is a women and - even worse - a mother, that is making it hard for people to buy into this. But that is precisely what is so different about this book. How many crime books do you read where the women is the criminal, rather than the mother of the dead school girl or the screwed up and lonely DI?

NotForUsThanks said:

I've been thinking that overnight. It's a women's fiction / crime fiction crossover - a woman gets into desperate circumstances and gets drawn into crime. The one page prologue is set in the future when she's in it up to her neck, and then the opening chapters goes back to three months before when she's in dire straights, and then you follow her on her journey into crime. I want the reader to ask at the beginning - how does she get from one place to the other. It's an often used formula for tv drama and films, but crime and women's books obviously have their own formulas - and this book doesn't follow them.

If I cut the prologue people will start reading the book thinking it's women's fiction (only because the opening chapters are about a women in real life circumstances, nothing about its tone or my MC suggests it's a cozy romance), and the gangster stuff (which is the main part of the book) will come as a shock. But if I leave the prologue in, then people think GANGSTERS and they don't get why we're suddenly reading about a women who is about to lose her house.

You know, if my MC was a man, I don't think anyone would have a problem with my opening pages. I think the fact that my MC is a women and - even worse - a mother, that is making it hard for people to buy into this. But that is precisely what is so different about this book. How many crime books do you read where the women is the criminal, rather than the mother of the dead school girl or the screwed up and lonely DI?

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Sounds like an interesting story to me. You and another member here seem to be doing something similar. If you haven't already looked at this thread, it may interest you: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...ure-and-NOT-smashing-my-keyboard-with-a-brick

You might not like this question (and I don't know your story), but do you absolutely need to start with her losing her home? Or can you start where the hook is, and work in why she's doing the criminal acts? Can the reader be asking, "How did she get into this?" while she's committing the crimes and you have it come out as the crime story goes along?

It might change things in ways you don't like; I don't know. But it's maybe something to think about and/or try out.

Got a very quick rejection today from a market that doesn't normally do rejections that fast (mine was <7 days, average is closer to 25ish). I know it's probably because they just happened to have a burst of reading get done, but it does feel like it's because my story was so egregiously bad that they screamed "Burn it with fire!" as soon as it crossed their desks. Sigh.

NFUT - I got a couple similar comments on MS4, that it was leaning towards women's fic. Despite the fact that it was set on another planet. With spaceships. And cryo freezing. And FTL. But since the MC was a woman with some personal storylines, for some people it wasn't "pure" science fiction. I ended up just leaning into it, because I like that I include multidimensional female characters, but it did make me roll my eyes a couple times.

CJSimone said:

Sounds like an interesting story to me. You and another member here seem to be doing something similar. If you haven't already looked at this thread, it may interest you: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/sho...ure-and-NOT-smashing-my-keyboard-with-a-brick

You might not like this question (and I don't know your story), but do you absolutely need to start with her losing her home? Or can you start where the hook is, and work in why she's doing the criminal acts? Can the reader be asking, "How did she get into this?" while she's committing the crimes and you have it come out as the crime story goes along?

It might change things in ways you don't like; I don't know. But it's maybe something to think about and/or try out.

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Thanks for that link, that's some really interesting stuff right there. Good to remind myself too that these structural questions are something every writer grapples with. I have thought about mashing the book up, doing a structural edit, but it would make it a different book and I like how this one has ended up. The frustrating thing is there is some (I hope) clever stuff as the book progresses, that shifts readers perspective this way and that, the MC goes on a real personal journey, and I'm really proud of the ending. But if an agent can't get past the idea of a mother turning criminal then all that gets unseen

Noranne - this exactly! Write a well rounded, fully formed, female character and it's seen as some sort of misplaced element in genre fiction. And commiserations on the R. I recently got a rejection 24 hours after querying an agent I really liked and it felt like they had flung the book back in my face

Thanks for the positive input, pinkbow vintage! Out of curiosity, how many agents did you query with the Ms that got you an agent?

I'm trying really hard to keep going, but I've gotten over a 100 rejections and I'm feeling bad. I'm at a 10.5 request rate. That's good and promising, right? I've gotten several personal rejections as well. They said what they loved but not what didn't work for them. So I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Started querying.... two batches sent out, already four rejections and no requests. I've reworked my query twice, and I'm just feeling exceptionally meh. I'm glad to have this group here to vent to because I stay silent otherwise while I query.

Sure, not everyone has gotten back to me yet, but it's not looking great. Fifth completed manuscript with two previously published e-books with indie press. I thought it'd be my time... le sigh.

NotForUsThanks said:

Thanks for that link, that's some really interesting stuff right there. Good to remind myself too that these structural questions are something every writer grapples with. I have thought about mashing the book up, doing a structural edit, but it would make it a different book and I like how this one has ended up. The frustrating thing is there is some (I hope) clever stuff as the book progresses, that shifts readers perspective this way and that, the MC goes on a real personal journey, and I'm really proud of the ending. But if an agent can't get past the idea of a mother turning criminal then all that gets unseen

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You're welcome. I'd think a mother turning criminal would interest agents and readers. But I like different. Hope it works out, however you go about it.

Belle_91 said:

I'm trying really hard to keep going, but I've gotten over a 100 rejections and I'm feeling bad. I'm at a 10.5 request rate. That's good and promising, right? I've gotten several personal rejections as well. They said what they loved but not what didn't work for them. So I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

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I've always heard a 10% request rate is good, and that includes for published authors, so yeah, that's a good request rate.

If the requests are from the query letter alone, you know that's working, and if they're from the query plus opening pages, then all that's working. It even sounds like the entire MS is good if those who've requested say only what they love, so it seems more a reflection of the oversaturated market than flaws or anything lacking in the work.

You wouldn't be the first to hit the 100 rejection mark and still land an agent, so there is still hope.

CJ

So I started submitting stories for the firs time in March. My first story was accepted in May and then...nothing. Of my 50-some submissions I'm at 43 rejections. I saw that coming, and forcing myself to write short fiction has refined my writing so much it's bananas.

Then something equally parts confusing and exciting happened today. After month's of "thanks, but no" emails....two different magazines emailed me within 12 hours of each other accepting my microfiction stories!! They're smaller presses and I know it's not a huge deal, but it was such a huge boost of confidence for me. I'm probably way giddier than I should be.

sockycat said:

So I started submitting stories for the firs time in March. My first story was accepted in May and then...nothing. Of my 50-some submissions I'm at 43 rejections. I saw that coming, and forcing myself to write short fiction has refined my writing so much it's bananas.

Then something equally parts confusing and exciting happened today. After month's of "thanks, but no" emails....two different magazines emailed me within 12 hours of each other accepting my microfiction stories!! They're smaller presses and I know it's not a huge deal, but it was such a huge boost of confidence for me. I'm probably way giddier than I should be.

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THAT'S AWESOME! No, you should be exactly as giddy as you are. Congrats!!