The Daily Rejection, Vol. 2

A newer agent at an established agency can be a great thing. I get the "no sales" downside, but a new agent is actively building a list, and you will potentially get a lot of personal attention that you might not get from a more established agent with a lot of clients. If it got to the phone call stage, I would ask if they were being assisted by one of the bigger agents as far as contacts with publishers, and that kind of thing, while they establish their own contacts and get sales going.

Thanks, Jeneral.

Liz_V said:

Sorry to fall off the face of the forum, folk. I am a bad social media-er. On the plus side, I spent three straight days at the coffee shop and wrote the equivalent of half a chapter (which is a lot for me); on the minus side, I then couldn't get back to it for a week, and all that getting back in the saddle is going to have to be gotten back in again.

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Hi Liz_V! Don't know if you've already tried this, but I read a tip once to making it easier to jump back in was leaving a sentence half-finished before you exit out. Sometimes, closing a scene out or a chapter or whatever can make it hard for me to jump back in because I feel like I have to re-read what I wrote to be able to know where I'm going, and then, of course, the critic in my head is like "well, cut all of that. It's terrible." Doing the half finished sentence makes it so that I only feel compelled to read that sentence and maybe a couple right before it, and then I just keep going. It's been a really helpful trick for me.

My favorite thing to do now is to use the comment tool in Word. Before I stop writing for the day, I write a brief summary of where I just was and where I think things might be going. Then when I come back in a week or whatever, I can just read that instead of unleashing the critic that has no place in my first draft anyway. It serves the same purpose for me of keeping my focus forward instead of back.

Happy writing!

Belle_91 - There are two things I look for when considering a new agent with little or no sales history. One is whether they have a strong agency backing them up, which it sounds like your two do. The other is, do they have the confidence to stand up for their clients if there's a problem, even against much more established editors/publishers? That last is very hard to tell, of course, but sometimes an agent's blog, etc. can give you a hint.

I remember one new agent I was looking at, she seemed like a good fit in terms of interests and shared references, but she was also insecure enough to be freaked about enjoying her hobby (a perfectly reasonable fannish thing) in public, lest somebody see her. And I couldn't help thinking, if you can't even stand up and say "yeah, I like this show, what about it?", what's going to happen when Mr. Big-Time Publisher slaps a gawdawful cover on my book, or whatever weird publishing mishap my usual luck brings down? Are you going to have the guts to have my back? And maybe she would have been fine, but maybe... not. I ended up querying a more experienced agent at the same agency.

(Also, double R cookies for the full. Bummer.)

ESGrace - I've heard the stop-in-the-middle thing works for a lot of writers, but for me it would just make me crazy. Mostly what I need is just to keep at it on a semi-regular basis -- I've been not-writing a lot lately, for various reasons, and like any other muscle, the writing brain works best when exercised regularly.

Belle_91, sorry for the R on a full. Yuck. I go back and forth on new agents myself. They're building their lists, more likely to take a look, to really lobby for you, since they're very much in a career-building phase. Which also comes with more bumps and mistakes than someone more seasoned. The pro/con list goes on (and my streak of not providing any useful advice continues...)

ESGrace, I think I'm with Liz. Stopping in the middle of a sentence would make me nuts. I do sometimes finish a sentence and add a note in brackets for my next-day self, that say something like [dude, yes, I noticed this is not great, but editing is still a thing, so just keep going, okay?]. Not the world's best pep talk to myself, but easier for me than stopping in the middle of a sentence. It's totally fascinating to hear what works for other people - it seems like everyone needs to find a way to coax/kick themselves into keeping on.

I got what seemed an R yesterday, from the agent I'd given an exclusive. She'd included lots of feedback. I quite literally put my head on the table and cried (so dramatic. I felt like I was 17, and not in a good way), then wrote her back to thank her for her time, and insights and the like, since she didn't have to. Especially not on a Saturday. I then sent out a number of queries. And this morning she wrote back, and said she'd love to do an R&R, if I'm willing. Plus: she seems like a lovely person with great insights, deeply invested in seeing even writers she's not repping achieve success, which... wow. Minus: no offer of rep to soften the unpleasantness of heading back into the revisions and I hatehatehate the revision caves of dooooooom, even if they do make my work better.

Ugh, fitzdiaz, I am so sorry about the R from the exclusive. That sucks.

Hi all, happy Monday, if that's possible!

Linnet, Liz, Belle, fitzdiaz and anyone else with recent Rs - many hugs. So sorry about the Rs on the fulls, especially.

Fitzdiaz, are you thinking of doing the R&R? Or maybe you need more time before deciding.

RLGreenleaf, you asked a hypothetical question about choosing between publishers. I'm still pretty ignorant on the subject, but I have gleaned some things just from hanging out on these boards long enough to see people get book deals, etc. One thing I'd be looking for is how my rights would be handled. How long does the publisher hold onto the rights, are they comprehensive (including foreign rights and audio rights, etc) and is that a good thing or not? Are they willing to negotiate certain terms in their contract? I'd be suspicious of being expected to sign a boilerplate contract without any negotiation. Other things that would be important: how long they've been in business, how their sales are doing year-to-year (if you can find that info), what their authors have to say about working with them, what their covers are like, do they publish exclusively digitally or print-on-demand or a regular print run, and what kind of distribution and promotion do they use - i.e. will my book be in libraries? will it be sent for review by major reviewers for my genre, etc.? I imagine these items are just scratching the surface but they are what come to mind quickly.

Belle - as for your question about new agents, I agree with what others have said. I've also made this casual observation over the past four years: The new agents who seem to have risen the highest the fastest are those that 1) are involved in contests and make themselves available on social media (Tumblr, Twitter, etc) and 2) they all seem to treat their slush piles aggressively and responsibly - replying quickly to most if not all queries. Those agents who are really bad at that? They seem a lot less successful when comparing sales on Publishers Marketplace or when stalking them on Twitter to see what they've sold or in whatever way they publicize that (of course, they could be as bad at publicizing that info as they are at dealing with their slush and may be making way more sales than I can tell). But then they drop out of agenting more often, too, and you start to see a pattern... Again, this is just what I've casually observed and there are probably exceptions. To make a long answer short, I am much more comfortable querying new agents at solid agencies than I was when I began querying, esp. if they impress me as doing well in the two areas I mentioned. Oh, another thing to consider - if you can find out - is whether or not their agency will take you on as a client if the agent quits agenting or what happens if the agent switches agencies/starts up their own agency.

fitzdiaz and Liz_V - it is interesting to know/see what works for other people! My methods have been known to make other people cringe.

A dear friend of mine always shakes her head when I'm like, "Oh wait, I was going to ask you about something and I wrote it down in this notebook...No, it's not here, maybe it's in that notebook, oh wait it's over here after this list of stuff I want to plant in my garden." Whatever keeps the muses happy, right?

Sorry about the Rs, all.

I know I updated in here that I'm taking a break from querying my book to get some more eyes on it, but I'm contemplating sending out some stories just so I can feel like I'm making some forward progress on my goals and not letting rejection make me feel like I'm not good enough/should retreat and lick my wounds. Feels like a totally different beast though, so I'm just in the "where do I want to send this" phase.

I had a tough experience at a writer's workshop. Three agents were reading submitted 1st pages in a "writer's got talent" type of forum and did not say kind things about mine. One didn't like and admitted she wasn't familiar with my genre, and the other two didn't say much but nodded a few times when the other agent was talking. To be fair, they didn't say anything terrible, and they were more brutal with most every other first page, some they didn't get past a sentence or two. At least they made it through about 3/4 of the page with mine. It was anonymous, but still, I felt like I was hit by a bus. That sucked. So here is where I normally quit. Shelf the book, move on. I'm not letting myself do that, not this time. I'm going to get to a certain number of rejections before I will let myself turn my back on this one.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm a total hack. Gah, I hate this. Well, time to stop pouting and get back to work. I'm so glad I can come here and get this out...that is new for me, too. I usually don't even talk about rejections or negative reactions to my book. It is a little terrifying and freeing.

third swift response to say "I wasn't drawn in by it" - I suspect I'm going to struggle a lot. So far I've only submitted to agents who request pages so I think that even if it's form they probalby are talking about the style and not the cover letter etc.

StoryG27 said:

I had a tough experience at a writer's workshop. Three agents were reading submitted 1st pages in a "writer's got talent" type of forum and did not say kind things about mine. One didn't like and admitted she wasn't familiar with my genre, and the other two didn't say much but nodded a few times when the other agent was talking. To be fair, they didn't say anything terrible, and they were more brutal with most every other first page, some they didn't get past a sentence or two. At least they made it through about 3/4 of the page with mine. It was anonymous, but still, I felt like I was hit by a bus. That sucked. So here is where I normally quit. Shelf the book, move on. I'm not letting myself do that, not this time. I'm going to get to a certain number of rejections before I will let myself turn my back on this one.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm a total hack. Gah, I hate this. Well, time to stop pouting and get back to work. I'm so glad I can come here and get this out...that is new for me, too. I usually don't even talk about rejections or negative reactions to my book. It is a little terrifying and freeing.

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That sounds absolutely brutal, and reflects a nasty side of the industry (and of those agents) and NOT your writing. These days, amongst all the good new opportunities for unpublished writers, there is definitely a sort of X Factor mentality, where writers are used and abused by so-called "professionals", rather than us being treated with the dignity and respect we deserve. I mean, what GOOD did this panel think they were doing acting this way? Seriously StoryG27, you gave it a go in good faith and got treated terribly. That is on them, not on you. Take your precious work and run from these b@stards x

Harlequin said:

third swift response to say "I wasn't drawn in by it" - I suspect I'm going to struggle a lot. So far I've only submitted to agents who request pages so I think that even if it's form they probalby are talking about the style and not the cover letter etc.

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Or just as likely, Harlequin, the book really wasn't for them. Like when we pick up a book and read its blurb and look at the first page, and just make a quick judgement that it's not our kind of thing. We're not thinking it's a bad book or anything, we're just thinking Nut For Us! Seriously, keep going x

I don't suppose I'm totally alone in stalking agents' social media - especially when I've sent a query to them - so I'm just wondering if anyone has any particular thoughts about agents tweeting in real time about submissions? In the last few weeks, four agents I follow tweeted about an amazing submission they are reading, two of whom had my fulls. Now, for short while, it was very exciting to think they might have been talking about MY submission, but it turns out they weren't. One agent has since rejected my ms, but is open to an R&R. The other still has it, but has tweeted about hoping to sign the author of the amazing submission up this morning! So I just know an R is coming, I just don't know when (he rarely signs up new writers to represent - he is a very busy man in the industry and has a lot of fingers in a lot of pies).

Made me realise how many other writers who had submitted work to those agents saw that tweet and thought, they might be tweeting about ME! And now all of us have come crashing down because we know it's not. It seems a new and unusual way to be insensitive towards hopeful writers! Am I, as I often can be, being overly-sensitive - or is this sort of tweeting a tad unprofessional?

StoryG27 said:

I had a tough experience at a writer's workshop. Three agents were reading submitted 1st pages in a "writer's got talent" type of forum and did not say kind things about mine. One didn't like and admitted she wasn't familiar with my genre, and the other two didn't say much but nodded a few times when the other agent was talking. To be fair, they didn't say anything terrible, and they were more brutal with most every other first page, some they didn't get past a sentence or two. At least they made it through about 3/4 of the page with mine. It was anonymous, but still, I felt like I was hit by a bus. That sucked. So here is where I normally quit. Shelf the book, move on. I'm not letting myself do that, not this time. I'm going to get to a certain number of rejections before I will let myself turn my back on this one.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm a total hack. Gah, I hate this. Well, time to stop pouting and get back to work. I'm so glad I can come here and get this out...that is new for me, too. I usually don't even talk about rejections or negative reactions to my book. It is a little terrifying and freeing.

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Ow, Story. At a conference I went to years ago, they had a first-page deal like that, and it was a real eye-opener. At the beginning of the session, I hoped they'd get to mine, and by the end I was relieved that they hadn't. Apparently that's standard for those first-page sessions.

I actually did shelve that manuscript--good concept but too ambitious for my skill level yet. I hope to get back to it eventually.

Actually, I rather dislike that idea of "the first page", or even "the first sentence".

I think it is a red herring -- if you read many of the classics, you will find that sometimes even the first chapter is not totally engrossing.

For example, the opening scene of "To Kill a Mockingbird" does not pull you into the story. I found it rather boring; and it did not reflect, nor represent, what was to come later in the book (a great book!).

Similarly, it took me about five attempts to get through the first chapter of "Wind in the Willows", "Lust for Life", and many other well-known and distinguished books.

But I suppose...that the publisher thinks they will always lose the reader if that first sentence, or that first paragraph, or that first page, does not immediately grab their attention and makes their eyes bulge in awe.

Anyway, that is my $.02 worth. : )

And on a totally different topic...

I am wondering if any of you might have some information on this:

Suppose you submit a full ms and it is not totally rejected -- they suggest a rewrite.

So now, suppose you do the rewrite and re-submit.

If it is still not to their total liking, will they ask for a second rewrite?

I guess my real question is this: how many rewrites will a publisher request before they finally lose their patience and throw their clipboard on the floor and tell you to go away?

Just curious.

RLGreenleaf said:

Actually, I rather dislike that idea of "the first page", or even "the first sentence".

I think it is a red herring -- if you read many of the classics, you will find that sometimes even the first chapter is not totally engrossing.

For example, the opening scene of "To Kill a Mockingbird" does not pull you into the story. I found it rather boring; and it did not reflect, nor represent, what was to come later in the book (a great book!).

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If the opening of a recently-published book is boring, do you keep reading it?

Styles change, and what worked in 1960 may not work now, in hairstyles or in writing.

And if a page isn't a long enough writing sample, what is?

RLGreenleaf said:

And on a totally different topic...

I am wondering if any of you might have some information on this:

Suppose you submit a full ms and it is not totally rejected -- they suggest a rewrite.

So now, suppose you do the rewrite and re-submit.

If it is still not to their total liking, will they ask for a second rewrite?

I guess my real question is this: how many rewrites will a publisher request before they finally lose their patience and throw their clipboard on the floor and tell you to go away?

Just curious.

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I've never heard of someone being asked for a second rewrite. Maybe it's possible, but I sure wouldn't count on it. Which is why the usual advice is to take your time.

StoryG27 said:

I had a tough experience at a writer's workshop. Three agents were reading submitted 1st pages in a "writer's got talent" type of forum and did not say kind things about mine. One didn't like and admitted she wasn't familiar with my genre, and the other two didn't say much but nodded a few times when the other agent was talking. To be fair, they didn't say anything terrible, and they were more brutal with most every other first page, some they didn't get past a sentence or two. At least they made it through about 3/4 of the page with mine. It was anonymous, but still, I felt like I was hit by a bus. That sucked. So here is where I normally quit. Shelf the book, move on. I'm not letting myself do that, not this time. I'm going to get to a certain number of rejections before I will let myself turn my back on this one.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm a total hack. Gah, I hate this. Well, time to stop pouting and get back to work. I'm so glad I can come here and get this out...that is new for me, too. I usually don't even talk about rejections or negative reactions to my book. It is a little terrifying and freeing.

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JJ Litke said:

Ow, Story. At a conference I went to years ago, they had a first-page deal like that, and it was a real eye-opener. At the beginning of the session, I hoped they'd get to mine, and by the end I was relieved that they hadn't. Apparently that's standard for those first-page sessions.

I actually did shelve that manuscript--good concept but too ambitious for my skill level yet. I hope to get back to it eventually.

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Ouch, StoryG27. Good for you to keep going on this one.

For those who've participated in these one-page sessions, I'm curious: Are the opening pages all really bad in your opinion as you listen? Or were you interested in some of the stories they stopped reading? Were the beginnings generally worse than published novels or just not being given the same chance? Did the agents read a query letter or blurb first, and if not, do you think that made a difference (like if you read a first page of a book you're considering buying, you've looked at the blurb and go off that too).

Sorry for so many questions; I guess I'm trying to figure out how meaningful it is and if it's worthwhile to ever do one of these sessions.

JJ Litke said:

If the opening of a recently-published book is boring, do you keep reading it?

Styles change, and what worked in 1960 may not work now, in hairstyles or in writing.

And if a page isn't a long enough writing sample, what is?

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+ 1

I think most classics would need to be changed for today's market. Our tastes, attention spans, expectations and all have changed, and we have tons more options now.

At one time if you were interested in a very particular topic you'd probably give a book on it a good chance, but now you can just move along to the next one.

Oh, wow, I was feeling so good about myself for getting both of the latest short stories back out, and they both got rejected on the same day! That stings. I'll be sending them back out as soon as I finish drinking something with lots of whipped cream on top.

fitzdiaz, condolences/congrats on the R/R&R. At least it shows you've got the agent's attention?

I will occasionally leave myself notes on the next thing to happen in a story, but it's generally something I haven't figured out how to do yet. Anything I can do in the current session, I figure I'd better do, y'know? Leaving it hanging for next time would be just asking for the spark to fade.

ESGrace - As a pro author I'm fond of says, what matters is that you write, and what you write works on the page. How you get there is up to you!

As for sending out short stories to feel like you're making progress, obviously I'm a fan of it. Though I will admit it can become enough of a Thing in its own right that one may lose sight of that novel querying one was supposed to be getting back to....

StoryG27 - Ouch, that does sound brutal. And maybe like it was more about the agents showing off how brutal they could be than the actual writing, eh? I will say, don't take to heart anything from somebody who doesn't like your genre. Even if you got it perfect, they probably still wouldn't like it, so it's not much of an indicator.

NotForUsThanks - I think real-time submissions tweeting may be another reason I'm glad I'm not on Twitter. It'd be neat for the insight into agents' thought processes, but yeah, it's probably putting a lot of writers through that roller coaster! I dunno about unprofessional, but I do wonder what kind of effect they think they're having, versus what effect they actually are.

RLGreenleaf - How many rewrites is going to depend entirely on the publisher, and probably on the MS.

CJSimone - Good questions. I'm curious, too.

CJSimone said:

Ouch, StoryG27. Good for you to keep going on this one.

For those who've participated in these one-page sessions, I'm curious: Are the opening pages all really bad in your opinion as you listen? Or were you interested in some of the stories they stopped reading? Were the beginnings generally worse than published novels or just not being given the same chance? Did the agents read a query letter or blurb first, and if not, do you think that made a difference (like if you read a first page of a book you're considering buying, you've looked at the blurb and go off that too).

Sorry for so many questions; I guess I'm trying to figure out how meaningful it is and if it's worthwhile to ever do one of these sessions.

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At the one I saw, someone would read the opening, then the agents would raise their hands at the point where they'd have stopped reading. They tended to decide against pieces much faster than I would have as a reader. But I did find I generally agreed with them (there were probably a couple of exceptions but nothing so glaring that they stand out in my mind). Some specific things they didn't like: unattributed dialogue, dropping into confusing action, describing the setting or weather. The tough ones were the ones they just said didn't hook them. Really tough to know what you're supposed to do to fix that.

There were also a couple of pages they liked. One had them all saying that person should query them. Funny, I remember that happened but not a thing about what the story was.

JJ Litke said:

At the one I saw, someone would read the opening, then the agents would raise their hands at the point where they'd have stopped reading. They tended to decide against pieces much faster than I would have as a reader. But I did find I generally agreed with them (there were probably a couple of exceptions but nothing so glaring that they stand out in my mind). Some specific things they didn't like: unattributed dialogue, dropping into confusing action, describing the setting or weather. The tough ones were the ones they just said didn't hook them. Really tough to know what you're supposed to do to fix that.

There were also a couple of pages they liked. One had them all saying that person should query them. Funny, I remember that happened but not a thing about what the story was.

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Thanks, JJ Litke, good things to know. Sounds like it would be an interesting but anxiety-inducing experience.

Liz_V said:

CJSimone - Good questions. I'm curious, too.

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RLGreenleaf said:

Actually, I rather dislike that idea of "the first page", or even "the first sentence".

I think it is a red herring -- if you read many of the classics, you will find that sometimes even the first chapter is not totally engrossing.

For example, the opening scene of "To Kill a Mockingbird" does not pull you into the story. I found it rather boring; and it did not reflect, nor represent, what was to come later in the book (a great book!).

Similarly, it took me about five attempts to get through the first chapter of "Wind in the Willows", "Lust for Life", and many other well-known and distinguished books.

But I suppose...that the publisher thinks they will always lose the reader if that first sentence, or that first paragraph, or that first page, does not immediately grab their attention and makes their eyes bulge in awe.

Anyway, that is my $.02 worth. : )

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^ this

Reading tastes haven't changed because we still enjoy the classics. What has changed is that reading is not just a leisure activity anymore, but something we do for 20mins on the tube, bus, or lunch break, whilst the cars being serviced, out for a coffee, amongst a lot of distraction, so that's created a whole new market for books that need to instantly hook the reader in and keep pulling pulling pulling.

Unfortunately most of these books have a great hook, great first line, great first chapter, great first half of the book even, but the whole thing is not sustained to the end. A lot of these so-called psychological thrillers or domestic noirs are like that. You can only take the "Is he, isn't he, who he says he is?" story so far before you completely run out of plot. There's a reason why Gone Girl and Girl on a Train and the Da Vinci Code became so massive, and it's not a great first page.

It reminds me of the story that I think was about Coca Cola and Pepsi? Something like, Pepsi did the taste test, and found that from one sip 8/10 people preferred Pepsi (or whatever the figure was). But as it turned out, whilst people preferred Pepsi to Coca cola based on one sip, if they drank the entire can, Coca Cola blasted Pepsi out of the water.

It's great, obviously, if a book can grab a reader from page one, but the writer (and their editor) better be able to sustain that the whole way through, otherwise I'm ditching. You can't set me up expecting fast-pace, then take the foot off the peddle. Give me a chapter of good writing however, and a decent author's voice, and a sense of story and I'm ready to take the time get to know the book properly. The whole first page thing has become a bit of a tyranny imo, where the writer is expected to do all the work and the reader is considered to have the attention span of a four year old. I think the whole publishing world should have more respect for readers than that.

Liz_V said:

NotForUsThanks - I think real-time submissions tweeting may be another reason I'm glad I'm not on Twitter. It'd be neat for the insight into agents' thought processes, but yeah, it's probably putting a lot of writers through that roller coaster! I dunno about unprofessional, but I do wonder what kind of effect they think they're having, versus what effect they actually are..

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Yes think you're right, it's not unprofessional, but for a writer it really does add to the roller coaster. I don't think they could really know just what it does to a person unless they have been on the query ride themselves, and let's face it, they haven't.