The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Funaek

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So sorry MouseAvenue! I've had that happen to me before and it hurts to get so close. But given how close you were, it might just be bad timing and so, like JoyMC said, maybe you'll be able to revisit this in the future. Or what about smaller presses like others suggested?
 

Niiicola

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MouseAvenue, I'm so sorry. But you wrote an amazing book that FIVE editors loved enough to take to acquisitions. That's pretty effing incredible, even though it wasn't the outcome you hoped for. I bet they'll all jump on whatever you send them next.
 
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Fuchsia Groan

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It's over now. I got to 5 acquisitions boards and ultimately every single sales and marketing team rejected it. It was a second round, too, so the book is over, too. :flag:

FIVE?! I am so sorry to hear that; acquisitions is nerve-wracking every. single. time. :Hug2:You deserve so much chocolate and kittens (assuming no allergies to either).

On the bright side, editors clearly really, really like your writing, which bodes well for future submissions. Was there some particular element that sales teams found too risky? (That happened to someone on an earlier incarnation of this thread; the controversial element was the premise of the book, so she couldn't change it.)

Ack, the ups and downs of this business. Everyone hang in there.

And good luck with the new one, Joy! (Have you gotten any useful feedback over the course of those three submissions, or is it all over the place?)
 

Lena Hillbrand

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Yeah, 5 is pretty impressive! That's actually one area where I don't want my agent to be more forthcoming! She said she wouldn't tell me if it went to acquisitions because she didn't want me to get my hopes up, which is exactly what would happen! I just want to know afterwards, when they've said yes or no!
 

Niiicola

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Is it common for editors to tell your agent that they're taking the book to acquisitions, or does it depend on the editor? Like, do some just spring an offer with no advance warning?
 

nightblooming

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(((MouseAvenue))) Shelving a book is really rough, especially after getting so close. I'm sorry. It happened to me too. Don't give up all your hope though, because if you have a second book, it's always possible that one will sell, and then that editor will want to look at your other work, and boom, two book deal. At least, that's what I keep telling myself. Hang in there!

Niiicola, as far as I know, some editors do, some editors don't. I think it also depends on your agent's relationship with that editor, cause if they're regularly chatting about things, it's more likely to come up. I didn't know my book had gone to acquisitions until I was being rejected by acquisitions.
 

pinkbowvintage

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Oh MooseAvenue, I'm so sorry :(

I just got my manuscript evaluation today and I'm super nervous. So much pressure to revise and make it perfect.
 

LadyA

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Hi everyone - lurking lurker here! I just wanted to say that this thread is totally keeping me going/sane at this part of the process (I can't say any more unfortunately) and I wish you all the best luck in the world! This time of year is supposed to be major acquisitions time, right? May the book deals rain down ;)
 

Herstory

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I'm so sorry, MouseAvenue! I can imagine how much it must hurt to get that close. But you're right---there's a lot to be positive about, and I'm sure a publishing deal will happen for you.

JoyMC: I'm sorry to hear you've had 3 books on sub that didn't sell. Have you had the same agent the whole time?

A related question for the thread is at what point in the sub process do you think it's time to switch agents? Sometimes I wonder about letting the same agent sub all my books because maybe a different agent could do better. Surely some agents have better connections with editors than others or just better knowledge of the business.
 

CEtchison

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It was all market forces apparently. Editors loved it but it was of a genre that is bombing, sales-wise at the moment.
That sucks. And I really hate, hate, hate the whole situation for you. But I'd take this feedback more as a "not now" than a no. And you don't want your work out there just to end up dead in the water because the market is crappy. Instead, remember the market is cyclical. Everything that dies comes back to life again. It may take a couple of years, but they all come back. And when that upswing comes, I bet money some of those editors will come looking for you.
 

JoyMC

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And good luck with the new one, Joy! (Have you gotten any useful feedback over the course of those three submissions, or is it all over the place?)

No. Well, with the first one that went on sub, they pretty unanimously loathed the voice (which my agent and I steadfastly love and it can't be revised) except for the one editor who loved the voice, but her marketing dept loathed it. The other two manuscripts, nothing useful. Not even all over the place -- just really complementary nos.

JoyMC: I'm sorry to hear you've had 3 books on sub that didn't sell. Have you had the same agent the whole time? A related question for the thread is at what point in the sub process do you think it's time to switch agents?

I have been with the same agent. And as tempting as it is to think it's because she's doing something wrong, she's a top selling agent. She reps major people and makes new debut deals all the time. For sure, some agents do have better connections and more knowledge of the business than others, but I doubt there are many (if any) who have more than mine (in my category, anyway). So I think the point at which one should consider switching agents depends on the reasons they're unhappy/unsure of what the agent is doing. I'm not saying I haven't considered it, but I do feel 100% confident it doesn't have anything to do with her connections or knowledge of the business.
 

nightblooming

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The only reason I didn't cry in the bathtub when I got rejected by acquisitions (followed by several more editors who basically said they love it and they know acquisitions will reject it) is because I'd just been dumped by my now ex-fiance. Looking back, I'm kinda glad the two coincided because there was only so sad I could feel. I guess good advice for coping with publishing rejection is to also be coping with romantic rejection, though I don't exactly recommend it haha. A year later, I'm in a much better place with both my writing and my life, so there is light ahead, but I totally feel you re: bathtub and crying.

Good luck with the evaluation, pinkbowvintage!

The red flags for leaving an agent during submissions would be, 1. poor to no communication (won't send you the sub list, goes radio silent for months, vanishes off the planet), 2. evidence that your agent can't get editors to read your manuscript (if your agent won't tell you who is reading it, if you know the pitch list and then a small percentage of that pitch list seems to be reading, if no editors seem to have your manuscript at all), 3. rejections that suggest your agent was waaayyy off base placing your MS with that particular editor (all simple forms, "just not for me," "had a hard time connecting to the story," "not quite right," with no details, from every editor. One or two of these is okay, but if every rejection is like that, no good), and 4. if your agent is only pitching to small houses/places that accept unsolicited, unagented submissions (aka your agent isn't doing anything you couldn't do yourself).

Yes, there are agents who are out to drinks with editors every night in NYC, and agents who have never met face to face with an editor, but from where I'm standing, if your agent is getting your manuscript in front of Big 5 editors, and getting nice/detailed responses implying a good relationship between agent and editor, I'm not sure how much changing agents, even to a heavy-hitter, will make editors not reject your book. Plus, if a bunch of editors do have your book, pulling out with your agent and re-querying could be complicated. The times to get out are either when you realize no editors or only small editors have read your book, or if you have written a new book that you could query new agents with. Another good reason would be if your first and second book were radically different. The agent that pitched your MG about fluffy bunnies might have no idea where to send your splatter punk gorefest, and may not want to try.

There's also always a possibility that your agent just doesn't know what good or sell-able writing is, and that their love for your book is meaningless because it's not what editors love. This is my nightmare, and I try not to think too hard about it. That I could have deluded my agent and all my beta readers and myself into thinking my book is great when really it's just okay. Successful agents make a living by knowing the difference between a book they love and a book they can sell (hopefully ours are both!). If your agent isn't making any other sales, if all your rejections are lukewarm, if you have a really bad feeling in the pit of your stomach, then it's time to amicably part ways.

Man, I bummed myself out. Still don't know who has requested from our pitch, which makes me extra nervous because I wrote the bulk of the pitch (my agent and I edited it together), and though I trust her to tell me if my pitch was shit, I'm nervous nobody will request this really lovely book all because my pitch wasn't right. I'll probably hear from my agent tomorrow, since that's our day to check in, and I've emailed her about four different little things this week unrelated to this sub. I have so much hope right now, but it's all tangled up in knowing I had this much hope the last time, and it all got squished.

Edited to add: JoyMC, that sounds like an agent worth staying with, as long as you still feel good about it. :)
 
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Lena Hillbrand

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Omg, your list is so scary! My agent does almost all that! Eek. I hate being so in the dark but I'm not sure what I can do about it. I felt like I nagged for a sub list enough, so I gave up. So I have no way of knowing anything else. I had asked to set up a call when I emailed a week ago, so maybe I will be able to ask again, if and when she responds. I don't have publishers marketplace--is there any other way to see what deals are made?
Ugh, now I'm all bummed again.
 

nightblooming

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Oh no, I didn't mean to freak you out! It's okay, it's a tough place to be in when so much is out of your control. No matter what, you're gonna need a sub list, because you'll need it if you end up severing ties with your agent with the goal of querying again with the same book (assuming not very many or not the right editors have seen it). Nag away! In a polite, professional way of course, but if you want a sub list, it's your agent's job to give it to you. If a week has passed since you emailed to schedule a phone call (something I think is a good idea, and should also be a red flag for your agent that you want to have a serious talk), I would email again, and just say, "I fully appreciate how busy you are, and how hectic fall can be, but I'm beginning to be concerned our methods of communication are too different for this to be a good partnership. I want to continue working with you, but I'm also hoping we can schedule a phone call as soon as possible to discuss how I can be kept more in the loop, so I'm not nagging you constantly, or feeling in the dark." Sometimes a hint that you're thinking about leaving lights a fire under their butt. Sometimes the squeaky wheel does get the most attention. If your agent continues to be silent, that's a sign that maybe it's time to part ways.

In terms of finding your agent's other deals, does your agent have a website? A bio somewhere that states their other clients? With most agents, there's some transparency about who their other clients are, via their Twitter or blog or website, or whatever. I know a lot of my agent's other clients through Twitter, but I know not every agent is like that. The other thing worth doing, if you haven't already, is to go over to Bewares, Recommendations, and Background Checks and see if your agent/agency has a thread. It's totally possible your agent is just swamped, so don't panic. And even if you do end up having to sever ties, it's for the best, because no agent is better than a bad agent, and I hear a lot of stories about people leaving their agent who definitely upgrade when they sign again.
 

Lena Hillbrand

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My agent is extremely well established and though she doesn't have as much presence online as other agents, I know she's a good one and she has an excellent reputation. I think it's just me. Maybe our communication style is just not synching up, or she's a little too busy with her established clients to give an unknown quantity a lot of attention. Whatever the case, it hasnt been at all what I was hoping for when I signed.

But I hate to have to query again. Honestly I don't think I have it in me. Kind of sucks to see that dream receding after coming so close. I know a lot of you are experiencing the same thing with your subs. Wish I could go down coffees & drinks with you irl so we could all give big kitten hugs and cry in our martinis together.
 

DoNoKharms

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I don't have publishers marketplace--is there any other way to see what deals are made?
Ugh, now I'm all bummed again.

I'd try Googling "Rights Report [agent name]". It won't automatically sort chronologically, but it should bring up the general results on the deals your agent has been making.
 

krashnburn

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Sorry, Mouse, but like it was said before, maybe a few years from now when the market changes again, the MS will have a second chance.

My agent sent me a sub list update yesterday because I've been getting twitchy, and it looks like I have 26 subs out across 2 books. 26...and SILENCE. I'm even twitchier than I was before.
 

Herstory

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The red flags for leaving an agent during submissions would be, 1. poor to no communication (won't send you the sub list, goes radio silent for months, vanishes off the planet), 2. evidence that your agent can't get editors to read your manuscript (if your agent won't tell you who is reading it, if you know the pitch list and then a small percentage of that pitch list seems to be reading, if no editors seem to have your manuscript at all), 3. rejections that suggest your agent was waaayyy off base placing your MS with that particular editor (all simple forms, "just not for me," "had a hard time connecting to the story," "not quite right," with no details, from every editor. One or two of these is okay, but if every rejection is like that, no good), and 4. if your agent is only pitching to small houses/places that accept unsolicited, unagented submissions (aka your agent isn't doing anything you couldn't do yourself).

Yes, there are agents who are out to drinks with editors every night in NYC, and agents who have never met face to face with an editor, but from where I'm standing, if your agent is getting your manuscript in front of Big 5 editors, and getting nice/detailed responses implying a good relationship between agent and editor, I'm not sure how much changing agents, even to a heavy-hitter, will make editors not reject your book. Plus, if a bunch of editors do have your book, pulling out with your agent and re-querying could be complicated. The times to get out are either when you realize no editors or only small editors have read your book, or if you have written a new book that you could query new agents with. Another good reason would be if your first and second book were radically different. The agent that pitched your MG about fluffy bunnies might have no idea where to send your splatter punk gorefest, and may not want to try.

There's also always a possibility that your agent just doesn't know what good or sell-able writing is, and that their love for your book is meaningless because it's not what editors love. This is my nightmare, and I try not to think too hard about it. That I could have deluded my agent and all my beta readers and myself into thinking my book is great when really it's just okay. Successful agents make a living by knowing the difference between a book they love and a book they can sell (hopefully ours are both!). If your agent isn't making any other sales, if all your rejections are lukewarm, if you have a really bad feeling in the pit of your stomach, then it's time to amicably part ways.

This is the BEST and most clearly-explained list of reasons to leave one's agent that I've ever seen! Thanks for posting this. It also helped me realize that my agent is a good one and there's no reason to leave her at this point.

I had to laugh when you said the last part about the possibility that an agent doesn't know what good or sell-able writing is! I've had this thought too, but I'm sure you, your agent, and beta readers can't all be wrong! But I will share something an author-friend of mine told me. She's been published with one of the big 5 and she said, "Nobody knows or can predict what will sell. Nobody."
 

nightblooming

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My agent is extremely well established and though she doesn't have as much presence online as other agents, I know she's a good one and she has an excellent reputation. I think it's just me. Maybe our communication style is just not synching up, or she's a little too busy with her established clients to give an unknown quantity a lot of attention. Whatever the case, it hasnt been at all what I was hoping for when I signed.

But I hate to have to query again. Honestly I don't think I have it in me. Kind of sucks to see that dream receding after coming so close. I know a lot of you are experiencing the same thing with your subs. Wish I could go down coffees & drinks with you irl so we could all give big kitten hugs and cry in our martinis together.

It's hard for me to gauge, because I don't know who your agent is, but I trust you when you say she's well established with a good reputation. That sounds like it may be just not meshing communications styles, which sucks, but I personally would not call a deal breaker, unless she's not responding and there really is something urgent. I would put leaving and re-querying on the table only if you think your manuscript is in poor hands. The other thing that may be happening is, if you agent has a lot of big, well-established clients, that the bulk of her time goes to contracts/marketing/calming clients crying about their book covers, etc., and she chooses to put less time towards clients on submission, when the sad reality is the only things to do while on sub, as an agent, is pitch and nudge. Obviously, we're sitting over here peeing ourselves for news, but most of the time, there isn't any. I like to know when there's no news because otherwise my brain concocts the worst possible news that is for some reason being withheld from me, but if my agent specifically wanted to communicate less on sub, that wouldn't be a deal breaker. I would be sad, but it wouldn't be worth re-querying.

If your agent is still MIA when your book sells, during contract negotiations, during edits, or during launch, that's worth leaving over, in my opinion. Or if you suspect your book is being poorly handled. But I totally feel you. Silence during sub is the absolute worst. And I think you should be the world's most polite pain in the ass until you get an editor list, because that will soothe some anxiety, and put you in a good place should you need to leave later on. But I hope it's just busy fall, and publishing is always, like, a million years behind on everything, and your agent just prioritizes urgent matters, and has a lot of them on her plate right now. Don't worry until you have a real good reason to. Meanwhile, I'm going to sit over here in my unreasonable ball of meaningless worry, because I can give the advice, but have no idea how to take my own haha.

My agent checked in yesterday and said 3 of the 7 editors she pitched last week have requested, and she thinks the rest of them are just working through their inboxes (she pitches via email mostly, though some on the phone). I'm still nervous, since I wrote the pitch, but the three who have it are really heavy hitters. Like, I can't believe these people are reading my book. Before I went on sub this time (before my agent had even read the book! though she agreed with me when she read it) I sent my agent an email basically saying that I knew this book was really good, and that I only wanted it to go out to the very top editors, because I think it's a really special book, eons better than the first one, and she really listened to me and picked the very top people. I still have a lot of normal writer's doubt about the book, but man, I'm glad I stepped up there with confidence and declared only the best for this book. I hope it pays off!

26 subs at once! I would twitch myself to death. A million spenzas for you, krashnburn.

It's so true about nobody knowing what will sell. I'm guessing even major bestselling authors are like, "But what if my agent, and my editor, and that New York Times reviewer, and millions of readers are ALL wrong and my work really IS crap!" It is the artist's curse, and I think there's no escape haha.
 

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Omg, your list is so scary! My agent does almost all that! Eek. I hate being so in the dark but I'm not sure what I can do about it. I felt like I nagged for a sub list enough, so I gave up. So I have no way of knowing anything else. I had asked to set up a call when I emailed a week ago, so maybe I will be able to ask again, if and when she responds. I don't have publishers marketplace--is there any other way to see what deals are made?
Ugh, now I'm all bummed again.

Don't wait too long for the agent - my getting rid of Shitty Agent #1 last month was the best decision I ever made!
 

Treehouseman

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On Markets:

I know there are "soft" markets that are hard to sell in now: Dystopian, Paranormal Romance.

A friend of mine has a post-apocalyptic book she recently sold, but it was a hard sell, because Poapoc is too close to the dreaded D.

Vampires will have to remain in slumber for another 10 years, I expect.

Contemporary and "Gone Girl" suspense are the HOT things at the moment, but they'll fall for something new, and we'll all be scrabbling to keep up...
 

Lena Hillbrand

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So my agent emailed and we are supposed to set up a call next week. I'm trying to think of specific questions, rather than a vague "keep me in the loop." I want to be very direct (sooo hard for me!) and ask for exactly what I want, so I will know if she can give it to me instead of just hoping she'll eventually start telling me more. Then I'll have a better idea of where to go from there.
 

Bryan Methods

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Even if it can be tricky to be direct when you're worried about coming over as rude, I think it's always the best policy. Your agent is on your side!
 

Herstory

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Lena, I would make sure your questions are indeed really specific. At the very least, I would tell your agent, "I need to hear from you once a month even if there is no news. Can you do that?" Or something along those lines. Give her specific time frames. I don't think a general "keep me in the loop" will get you anywhere.

It's possible that different communication styles are the problem here. I know I often think I'm being very specific with my husband but I'm rarely specific enough for him!