The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Cristin - I'm so sorry. I agree with what others have said... take a step back, play some video games (I do that too Putputt!), try and recharge. I have times where I get discouraged and say I'm giving up writing, but after a few weeks of NOT writing, the urge always creeps back as the well fills up. I hope this is just a temporary setback for you.

Putputt - MEH on the R. Super frustrating. I hope you get better news soon.

Spike - definitely insist on communication! I agree, crack that whip!

Polish - as I write, I build a novel-specific playlist, but it's more for inspiration when I'm not writing. I'll listen to it in the car or while I'm out on a walk so the story stays relevant in my head, and I go back to it when I'm stuck on plot points, to remember the emotional core of the story. When I'm writing, I tend to go for ambient electronica (like the stuff on brainfm; there's also a Spotify playlist that's called "brain food" or something), or something equally soothing. One section of my MS out on sub is set in the late 90s, so I had some Dave Matthews Band going while I worked on it.

Got my first R from a publisher yesterday. Not a milestone I necessarily wanted, but everyone gets 'em. It didn't sting nearly as bad as I expected. Partly because she had some nice things to say about the book, and partly because I'm so used to agent rejections that they roll off relatively easily. So...yay?

Hi everyone,

I'm returning to this forum after a year away! Thought I could use (and give) some support...and I've had my share of submission hell, so I could use some company.

We're officially out again as of the beginning of this month, and I am sooo nervous. Good luck to everyone else in the same boat!

Cristin_B said:

Well guys, I'm no longer on submission. My book is officially dead, at least for now. I'm just so disappointed. My agent wants to know the status of my WIP, but I've found all the rejection totally debilitating. I feel so stuck, and I can't seem to finish even a first draft of this book, though I was so excited about it before. I know some of you have been through this. Any advice for how to bounce back?

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I'm so sorry Cristin. I def think it's ok to feel stuck and maybe even to take some time off before bouncing back. It's normal to feel down. My suggestion is to do a lot of reading and remember why you love books in the first place. You will bounce back, but it doesn't have to be right away. Allow yourself some down time and don't beat yourself up. You were out on submission! You already accomplished so much! Feel proud of that for now, and then get back after it when you're ready.

Putputt said:

Moonchild, I'm so sorry for your loss. Big, big hugs to you and yours.

Congrats to all the R&Rs happening in here! I hope it all works out wonderfully!

Bleh...I just got an R for my last MS (the #ownvoices one), and I'm really, really bummed about it. It said the MS is "a delight", but that the editor didn't fall in love. I have about 20 similar Rs spread across my other MSs. This is the 4th MS I've had out on sub. FOURTH!!! I'm starting to think it will never happen for me. I seem to keep writing decent books that are utterly forgettable. At what point should I accept that maybe I'm just not good enough and I should pack up my toys and go home?

Sorry for the whinefest. After the unanimous love from my betas, even the toughest ones who ripped apart previous MSs, I had high hopes for this one.

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No packing up your toys. You've been on sub 4 times. That's 4 times more than, practically everyone in the world who has ever tried to write anything. So yes, you are good enough, and you will get there. Think how amazing it's going to feel when you finally break through, and then you'll be so happy that you went through this. It will make you so much more appreciative of the effort it took. Keep at it.

(((HUGS))) peeps

Putputt's coping list is good, though sometimes it takes me a while to get into the reading phase because I get into a, "Why is this published and not me? Wah!" mode for a bit. All totally normal. And every writer I know has gone through the "Why am I doing this, maybe I should give up," stage. But we don't, 'cause even though we're upset, we love writing, and the need eventually comes back to us. This is my third book on sub. I get it. And I also firmly refuse to believe the first two are completely dead. You never know...

Cristin_B - what Putputt said.

I will try to apply her advice, too, since MS1 is probably dead or about to be dead (it's been just over a year after having gone on sub). I feel totally heartbroken because I still love love LOVE that book, I honestly think it's pretty good, and I've gotten so many complimentary passes and one really close call... I just feel frustrated and plain disillusioned with the industry.

MS2 just went out about six weeks ago, but so far, we've had a few passes. One of them said it was "absolutely gorgeous" but they "didn't fall in love." Other assorted passes had to do with the voice. How the HELL do you fix voice???

IDK if it's because of everything else going on in my life RN, but I'm feeling so seriously discouraged. Kind of like, "why do I bother? This is clearly never going to happen for me."

Part of me just wants to tell Agent to pull MS1 from whoever still has it, and say that I'll just self-pub the darn thing. Probably not a good idea--I don't know the first thing about marketing a self-pubbed anything. Plus, it's YA, which hardly ever does well self-pubbed.

So I'm not doing it, but the idea doesn't sound as unappealing as it used to.

My anti-rejection spray doesn't seem to be working, dammit.

So sorry to everybody getting passes lately. As cheesy as it sounds, I really believe that all rejections are channeling you into the right track, though it may not be the way you expected. It still completely, utterly sucks though, and I wish I could buy you all a drink or some chocolate or a new puppy.

Thank you guys so, so much for the encouragement. This thread is truly priceless.

cmi - The new MS sounds great, especially since it's something you're passionate about. That passion will shine through and I hope your agent loves it!

Jeneral - Here's to hoping that the R will be the only R you get, and the rest would be fierce "WANT DIS NAOW" sort of replies.

Whimsigirl - Welcome back, and congratulations on restarting the submissions journey! May it be short and sweet this time round.

Spikeman - Thank you. You're probably right about it making me a whole lot more appreciative if it does ever happen...heh.

Krashnburn - *commiserates with you*

Moonchild - Aaaah, so many hugs!! I'm sorry about MS1. I don't know how to fix voice. Let me know if you ever find out. I hear ya on the self-pubbing thing. The idea is definitely less unappealing as it used to be, although I don't think I'd ever go down that road because I am crap at marketing, but...yeah. I know what you mean.

Niiicola - *uses the anti-rejection spray liberally* WORK, DAMMIT.

Thanks for all the encouragements! I'm feeling a bit better today, pondering the quote by Mary Anne Radmacher, "Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, 'I will try again tomorrow.'"

The book that went out on sub wasn't the first I wrote, and it won't be my last. We keep going...

Moonchild - I'm sorry to hear about your first manuscript, and everything else going on in your life. Sending you so many good thoughts and well wishes. *hugs*

Here, you spray me with the anti-rejection spray and I'll spray the rest of you. Now, we're all covered!

Add me to the club of trunked MS1s. I think Putputt's advice is spot on. There's nothing worse than struggling to put energy into writing something new when you're just not feeling it. Sometimes I have to let myself wallow a bit and turn to something completely un-writing/reading related to get some distance.

Hugs to everyone here!

I'm in the MS1 club too. I'll revise it one day but I need distance from it first... a lot more distance. That thing took me an entire year to write.

If this spray works, I'm buying a second bottle for when my next MS goes on sub (in a year? who knows.)

Got in a bit of a tiff with my spouse last week when he referred to writing as "my hobby." Yes, I have a job and he does too (his pays most of the bills), but just because we aren't relying on income from writing to pay the bills right now doesn't mean I don't consider myself something more serious than a hobbiest. I think he totally didn't get that I don't just write these things for fun. I had to spell it out for him that yes, I'd like readers to connect with and a community of other writers. That'd I'd like a published copy of my thing in my hands. we've been together for almost ten years and I couldn't believe that he didn't "get" it yet.

PutPutt - I totally get all these feels. This is my third time on sub (1.5 years and 1 year for the previous two), and I keep seeing all these other super quick sales and I'm like whyyyyyyyy what is wrong with meeeeeee. But persistence is key. You can't get a book deal if you stop trying.

Moonchild - I also totally get all THESE feels. My first book on sub was the book of my heart, and I was SO sad when it didn't sell. HOWEVER... that's my book that's on sub now, with a different agent! After I parted ways with my first agent, I massively revised it, mostly for voice, since that was also the main feedback I was getting. I added lots more internals and emotional reactions, the goal being to let the reader really get inside my protagonist's head. Seems to have worked, since my current agent loves it, and the R&R feedback had nothing to do with the voice. Also, how big was your first round of sub? We went out on sub with this one ~10 weeks ago to 10 imprints and have had only one response so far (the R&R). Maybe it's just a coincidence that all the editors who have my MS are slow?

Nicola - Can I take you up on the new puppy? Though my cat wouldn't be too pleased.

As for me, I haven't been able to stop thinking about sub since the revision went back to the R&R editor. No matter how much I try to bury myself in another project or work, my mind keeps slipping back to it. Gah! Stupid publishing, grumble grumble.

ACK. and one email can turn my frown upside down. Not book related, but writing related and gave me an excuse to nudge agent who responded immediately with helpful things to say. So, smiles all around here. Damn you, email, and your inordinate amount of control over my happiness quotient.

YOU GUISE. I just got a list of primary editors my agent is gonna submit book 2.0 to. 0__0

It's a great list. I'm nervous/excited/ahhh!

Cristin: It sounds like everyone here has great advice. I just want to say I'm sorry. There's not much worse in this business than setting a book aside.

Jeneral: Sorry for the R! I hope your next agent email has good news.

Welcome back, Whimsigirl. I think R&R rejections feel worse, because you get your hopes higher. Good luck with the new(er) sub process.

*hugs* Moonchild. You said there are a few editors who might still be considering MS1? And good luck with MS2.

I'd like some of that anti-R spray, Niicola.

Funaek & Earthling: I'm sorry about MS1. Are there any editors left considering it?

Polish: I'm shaking my head about "hobby". I don't think non-writers fully understand how much of ourselves we put into this career, even if we're doing other jobs at the same time. I think the world often equates earnings with value. And since we haven't made money from our writing yet, they assume writing doesn't have value. It's sad, because we know how hard it is to stick this out when all we seem to get is rejection. Support from those around us can make a huge difference. I'm glad you heard positive things from your agent to help balance.

Diana: I hope you hear great news soon! Refresh my memory (it's early here and I'm only half awake). How long has the editor had the R&R?

Good luck on sub, Pinkbow!!! I love the thrill I get when something new goes out.

I almost hate to admit it in public, but the book I have my current hopes on is my 5th book on sub. We're subbing alternating adult and YA. Does that really make the MS my third book on sub since the other two were YA? LOL.

When I first started going on sub, it seemed we'd hear (Rs) within a few weeks and we'd pretty much wrap up a round in 8-10 wks (with a few stragglers). Now, three months before hearing even a peep feels more like the norm. Are others seeing this, too?

For all three of mine on sub, I've gotten 2-3 responses around week 3, and then they trickle in over many months, up to a year, and the few who never respond. There might be another cluster of responses after my agent nudges.

When it's finally our turn, we'll appreciate it even more. And when there are bumps in the road later on, our time in purgatory will pay off in our ability to deal with setbacks and changes.

Congrats and good luck, Pinkbow!

To be honest, I still kind of think of my writing as a hobby. Maybe a step up from a hobby, but it's something I enjoy that I do in my free time, while other people are playing video games/watching TV/etc. Now I would certainly love it if this hobby would start helping to pay the bills, and to that end I'm looking at it in a more professional capacity, i.e. attending seminars, retreats, and workshops that will help me get better at it.

But I'm fortunate that my husband has photography as a hobby the way I have writing. So we each have a creative outlet that we feel passionately about and is a priority in our lives, so I understand when he "needs" a new lens, and he understands when I "need" to spend the weekend writing and the house doesn't get cleaned.

Pinkbow - good luck with Book 2!!

Group hug for all the MS1 woes. I'm fully aware that the same may happen to me, so I'm sort of bracing myself for it. I know I haven't been on sub long, but I do much better if I prepare for the worst and then am pleasantly surprised.

MartinaMay said:

Diana: I hope you hear great news soon! Refresh my memory (it's early here and I'm only half awake). How long has the editor had the R&R?

When I first started going on sub, it seemed we'd hear (Rs) within a few weeks and we'd pretty much wrap up a round in 8-10 wks (with a few stragglers). Now, three months before hearing even a peep feels more like the norm. Are others seeing this, too?

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The R&R editor only received my revision early this week! I'm sure I have plenty of waiting left to go.

And yes, I am experiencing this exact same thing. 8 (I think?) other imprints have had my MS since early January, and we haven't heard from any of them. My agent isn't big on nudging, but he did nudge everyone this week to let them know a revision was available to read. Still, after nearly three months, I'd thought it odd that nobody had replied one way or another except for the R&R editor. But maybe that really is the norm now!

Jeneral said:

To be honest, I still kind of think of my writing as a hobby. Maybe a step up from a hobby, but it's something I enjoy that I do in my free time, while other people are playing video games/watching TV/etc. Now I would certainly love it if this hobby would start helping to pay the bills, and to that end I'm looking at it in a more professional capacity, i.e. attending seminars, retreats, and workshops that will help me get better at it.



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I think for most writing is not a hobby. By definition, a hobby is something done for PLEASURE. I am probably not alone in saying there are so many nights I would rather watch tv or hang out with friends or even read than face that dreaded WIP. But you do it because you treat it as a job, or at least homework, or work in some fashion. For me, it's rarely pleasurable, the act of actually sitting down and writing. And sometimes it's actually painful. I think the pleasure is only taken from the fact that I believe it will one day become published. If I didn't believe that, there is no chance I would continue to write.

But there are some who write with no intention of ever getting published. That is more on the hobby end of things.

For you, it seems like you have a nice mix of both. It's mostly pleasurable for you, and you believe it can be lucrative. That's the best of both worlds.

GAHHH to the Rs! Putt, please please don't lose hope in MS. 4. Same for the rest of you with subs out. The two things I've learned about publishing are that it will twist a writer's nerves in knots and that you never know what to expect.

The "hobby" question has bothered me. It started when I first had to pay taxes on an advance and my preparer asked if I wanted to call it hobby or business income. By saying "business," you're kind of assuming there's going to be MORE. I ended up doing that, because I knew I'd have expenses related to promotion, but it felt like a leap of faith. Like I was trying to convince both my tax guy and myself that this wasn't a hobby, even though I have been writing fiction since I was eight years old for the sheer love of it, producing hundreds of pages and making zero dollars.

"Hobby" sounds so casual, so I guess I would call it a lifelong passion that also qualifies as a business when it meets the IRS definition. And when I have a deadline, it feels very much like a second job. But there's no doubt that I'm primarily doing it for love, and to take a shot at some silly dreams.

I consider my writing a hobby. I wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it, because I sure as hell don't do it for the money or critical acclaim.

But I would never refer to somebody else's writing as a hobby if they considered it something else. That's a shitty thing to do.

So I'm at a loss as to what to do and I'm hoping you all can give me some advice.

So far I've received 3 R&Rs, one of which was vague and two others that wanted to quiet down the fantasy elements and focus on the contemporary family story. After thinking about this for a while, I don't think I want to take my book in that direction. I don't want to do a straight up contemporary family story. I want to keep the fantasy and time traveling elements in it.

Today we received another pass, with this one saying she wished the twists and mysteries came earlier and pacing was faster. So pretty much the opposite of what the others said.

We did a very very small first round. My agent said she thinks the ms has a good shot on a second round with a full revision, but she's not sure what we should do with it. She asked if I might want to consider doing a professional edit but after I looked up the prices I said no. She loves the ms, but I think she would favor pushing the story more in the direction of the R&Rs and turning it into a contemporary family story. So now I don't know what to do next. Any suggestions or ideas?

Funaek - How do you feel about doing today's R&R? It sounds like a relatively easy edit (rearranging elements rather then removing or adding them) and it allows you to keep the fantasy bits you love.

I'm not sure how a professional edit would help - you've had three different editorial reviews, and I doubt a fourth would make things clearer!

Ditto the avoiding a professional editor. Don't do anything with your story that feels less than right to you. If pacing is a concern (if that comment felt earned, true) and you want to keep the fantasy elements, I might play around with plot elements a bit and shoot it to a few fresh betas before starting round 2 (and probably re-sending to vague editor). Best of luck, whatever you choose. You obviously got lots of interest, albeit the "change everything and I'll love it" kind.

Thanks for everyone's responses on the hobby issue. I definitely write because I love it-- and because I'm a major grump when I don't (free therapy?). Thanks for letting me vent earlier. This forum is my favorite