The Next Circle of Hell, Vol. 2

Exactly. I've had times where I try to stomp down negative feelings because I "shouldn't" feel that way, and they tend to linger. But if I give myself permission to have a good wallow, they get over with a lot sooner!

Jeneral said:

Exactly. I've had times where I try to stomp down negative feelings because I "shouldn't" feel that way, and they tend to linger. But if I give myself permission to have a good wallow, they get over with a lot sooner!

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Well, on the bright side, remembering those negative emotions helps to articulate them more effectively when it comes time to write a character moment where despair/anger/frustration are part of the story, so there's that.

Well, I keep doing what they always tell us to do: write the next book. So, I doggedly keep writing manuscript after manuscript. Man, if I ever get in with a publisher, I'll have a virtual volcano of work to give them.

Meanwhile, the waiting sucks.

Jeneral said:

I get that you're trying to be super positive, but sometimes those feelings of frustration or anger are unavoidable. And that's what this page is for, I thought: to vent to people who understand where you are and what you're going through. I've found that it's better for me to allow myself to feel what I feel and wallow when I need to, and I can burn through the negative feelings more efficiently than just telling myself to "be creative instead." As someone who's dealt with depression for 20+ years, ignoring negative feelings doesn't make them go away.

This whole process is a roller coaster of emotion, and some days are good and some are bad.

Also, I was severely frustrated and depressed about the state of querying my MS when I got my first agent offer, so I received the bounties of the universe just fine!

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I agree that negative feelings don't go away by ignoring them. But meditation is not ignoring them: it is observing and accepting them as thoughts and feelings that are transient. It is not an easy way, but when done with consistency and diligence, it changes the levels of anger and frustration we feel in any situation, long-term. Or, at least, that has been my experience.

This thread is definitely a place to vent, and of course wallowing in anger and sadness is ok for a while--I've been through those stages in the last 6 years--I started writing my first novel in 2011, been writing since 2008, and have had an agent for more than 1 year, so I do understand that we sometimes get angry, and want to smash things. All I'm saying is it is not a very productive thing to sink into, long-term. Giving in to it was turning me into a snappy person, and it was becoming my personality.

I'm sorry you've been battling depression: that's something I have no experience with, and is a whole different level to deal with. I've heard from friends who face it that meditation helps there, too, but I personally can't make a comment.

Getting an agent is huge, and I'm so happy for you that you have one---irrespective of the state of mind you were in at the time. I'm not advocating that meditation and the practice of stillness is the only way--I've just personally found that it helps in many ways, especially in staying calm and creative, so I said that. We are all in it for the long haul--there will always be something that angers and frustrates us about the writing life. Most established writers find a coping mechanism. The practice of creativity and meditation is an option to look at, long-term.

This thread is meant for venting, I get that, and absolutely respect it, and am not suggesting in any way that people stop venting.

Shoeless said:

Well, on the bright side, remembering those negative emotions helps to articulate them more effectively when it comes time to write a character moment where despair/anger/frustration are part of the story, so there's that.

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Haha yes. When I feel anger or sadness nowadays, I end up saying to myself: take notes, this how a character feels when this sort of things happens to them. It got funny after a while, looking at myself snapping at people because I got an R in the mail. I think I'm writing more authentic angry scenes than ever.

ChocolateChipCookie said:

Well, I keep doing what they always tell us to do: write the next book. So, I doggedly keep writing manuscript after manuscript. Man, if I ever get in with a publisher, I'll have a virtual volcano of work to give them.

Meanwhile, the waiting sucks.

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Yes, writing the next one is the only way--I feel I've improved with each one, and in any case, it is not as if I could have stopped. The waiting really sucks, I agree.

Neem, I appreciate your input, but I think people process emotions differently. It's great that you've found a method to cope, but meditation doesn't work for everybody. For myself, it made my depression even worse, unless it is a guided meditation with a teacher. What does work for me is to jog and cook or bake and talk to my friends. I'm in a good place now-- I sleep well, I am content, and I don't meditate. So it is possible to live a good life without meditating. So is it possible to cut back on the constant selling of meditation and telling people how to process their own emotions? Thank you.

Back to the subbing hell...I got two Rs on an MS which I thought is no longer out there, but they were both sooo nice. One of them offered to write an editorial letter if I want one (of course I want one, why do you even bother asking, editor??). I guess things are picking up pace again, before the Frankfurt Book festival anyway, so here's to hoping someone here gets some good news soon!

Putputt said:

Neem, I appreciate your input, but I think people process emotions differently. It's great that you've found a method to cope, but meditation doesn't work for everybody. For myself, it made my depression even worse, unless it is a guided meditation with a teacher. What does work for me is to jog and cook or bake and talk to my friends. I'm in a good place now-- I sleep well, I am content, and I don't meditate. So it is possible to live a good life without meditating. So is it possible to cut back on the constant selling of meditation and telling people how to process their own emotions? Thank you.

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Thanks for the input. I'm new to the forum, so I appreciate your suggestion.

If you read my comment, I said, " I'm not advocating that meditation and the practice of stillness is the only way--I've just personally found that it helps in many ways, especially in staying calm and creative, so I said that. We are all in it for the long haul--there will always be something that angers and frustrates us about the writing life. Most established writers find a coping mechanism. The practice of creativity and meditation is an option to look at, long-term."

So, no, I'm neither selling meditation nor telling people how to process their emotions--just spoke of it as an option, not the only option. I thought it might be helpful to talk about what helped me. No mentions of meditation from me from here on. I hope that works. Thanks again.

Putputt said:

Back to the subbing hell...I got two Rs on an MS which I thought is no longer out there, but they were both sooo nice. One of them offered to write an editorial letter if I want one (of course I want one, why do you even bother asking, editor??). I guess things are picking up pace again, before the Frankfurt Book festival anyway, so here's to hoping someone here gets some good news soon!

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So cool that you were offered an editorial letter! I hope things pick up before Frankfurt as well, and we all hear good news soon!

Putputt, hugs for the two Rs.

*Hugs* Putputt. An editorial letter sounds exciting, however.

A number of friends/CPs on sub are reporting movement, too. No offers, but Rs and nudged editors stating they're reading.

My sub got put off until next week due to some upheaval in the digital romance market. *crosses fingers* it goes out next week and is well-received.

Ugggggh, PutPutt, sorry about the Rs. Extra super fun when you forgot they were out there, huh??

MartinaMay - upheaval? What?? I'm not sure I wanna know. Good luck with your sub, and I hope you get good news soon. I like that you're hearing about movement. At this point, I don't have a ton of hope for the subs I have out from March (though my agent told me it took her 10 months to "crack" a book last year, so who knows), but I just want to know so I can close them out.

I think I'm coming slowly back to my WIP. Read through bits of it last night and found some great turns of phrase that I don't remember writing. I love when that happens! Getting some notes together and planning to pick at it a little till the weekend. Weekends are my real writing time.

Another rejection

My agent says everyone is pretty much saying the same thing in their rejections: "Love the premise, great writing, didn't connect with the MC." She thinks we should do some more beta reads. It's hard because I don't WANT my MC to necessarily be super likable and wonderful, but I also don't want people to dislike her.

I'm sorry, Pink. Grr.

Thanks, Martina. I'm just really bummed out and frustrated. I try to remind myself this is part of the business, normal, etc. but man some days it's really rough.

pinkbowvintage said:

Another rejection

My agent says everyone is pretty much saying the same thing in their rejections: "Love the premise, great writing, didn't connect with the MC." She thinks we should do some more beta reads. It's hard because I don't WANT my MC to necessarily be super likable and wonderful, but I also don't want people to dislike her.

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Sorry to hear about the Rs. Hope you hear good news soon.

pinkbowvintage said:

Thanks, Martina. I'm just really bummed out and frustrated. I try to remind myself this is part of the business, normal, etc. but man some days it's really rough.

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Thanks a very tricky balancing act, although I understand the desire for it. A likable protagonist is obviously an easier sell, but a flawed character that creates some mixed feelings in the reader while still retaining an interest to see what that person does next is a lot more interesting in many ways. But yeah, it's challenging to maintain that, especially when straight up likable characters are just "simpler and easier."

Shoeless said:

Thanks a very tricky balancing act, although I understand the desire for it. A likable protagonist is obviously an easier sell, but a flawed character that creates some mixed feelings in the reader while still retaining an interest to see what that person does next is a lot more interesting in many ways. But yeah, it's challenging to maintain that, especially when straight up likable characters are just "simpler and easier."

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So agree that it is tricky. One of my protags in my last novel is quite unlikable, according to me, but beta readers liked her--they said she was not nice, but super strong! The other one is supposed to be more likable, but I had to address comments (I did drastic revisions) that she was a bit of a pansy! So far none of the editors have remarked on the characters, but I hope this feel for the characters is not affecting the novel's chances with them.

So sorry for the R's, pinkbow and Putt. Hopefully you'll hear some good news soon.

I think connecting with a character has more to do with identifying with their choices and understanding why they make them, rather than them being traditionally likable. It's a lot harder to do when you've got a less-than-sunny main character. I also think "didn't connect with the main character" is just editor-speak for "not for me" and it's not necessarily worth reading into.

That's a good point, Niiicola. My agent and I are going to have a total of 3 extra betas look at the text, so hopefully we'll get some ideas on how to strengthen the MC. But I also do think it's so supremely subjective that it may just be a throwaway line they're using. Impossible to say.

I am finding it difficult to move on with Book 3 during this. I know that's what I should do, but man it's rough when I'm perched for more "nos."

I got the "didn't connect" note a lot during my querying days. And I agree, a lot of times it can be code for "not for me," but at the same time when I got the note over and over I knew something was lacking. They all loved my MMC, but were "meh" on my FMC. So I definitely worked on her. I agree, it's definitely more of a challenge when you're working with a more "unlikeable" character. Hopefully the beta readers can help you there. Maybe go back to her GMC, weave in something that readers can relate to more? I dunno, it's early and I'm on my first cup of coffee, I'm mostly useless.

But hugs to you, that's frustrating as hell.

Gah, what a silent September.

Sorry for the Rs and the frustration guys. Should be a bit more noise from editors now that things are picking up post-summer slump.

Very tricky when editors don't connect with a main character - you can always try putting in more vulnerable moments, or even little private moments of joy. It's the small things that make people feel connections.

A quick question: is there any 'usual' arrangement for receiving the editor rejections from the agent?

I ask for mine to be compiled and sent across once a month because then it hits me at one go, I breathe through it, and then move on. I figure if there's any good news in the meanwhile, the agent will get in touch, anyway.

How often does your agent pass you your rejections, and is there a good/ not-so-good way of dealing with this?

It's really up to you. I told my agent that I'd like to know about the passes when we get them, because I like having as much info as possible, and I think otherwise I'd be freaking out wondering if there was any news or not.

My agent has yet to ask me about which way I prefer the news to come out. I'm contemplating the alternative, "I don't want to hear anything unless it's a very constructive rejection, or an offer of publication." I might actually live a less sad and stressful life that way.

Thanks for that, Jeneral and Shoeless.

I was wondering if I made a mistake when I asked for monthly updates. I'll be meeting him two weeks from now, so still planning the conversation I want to have..