NOT Police Brutality

robjvargas

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I think it's worth noting, and witnessing, when police *are* doing their job.

This video from CNN is one such example.

First, the video does not give a whole picture. Granted. But the video has a statement from police at the end that the officer, based on the UNedited version of the security camera footage, acted appropriately.

What I see in that video leads me to agree. It doesn't really show us how the woman in the video got into an altercation with police, but even her own description of events sounds like hedging, and she clearly *is* fighting with police.

I'm concerned with the point where the officer slams her on the table. But it appears (though not sure on this) that she was struggling even then.

I'm sorry about her injuries, but what I see is that police were simply trying to arrest her.
 

EMaree

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The guy slams into her and puts her in a "chokehold", according to the voice over -- aren't chokeholds illegal in Cali?
 

robjvargas

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The guy slams into her and puts her in a "chokehold", according to the voice over -- aren't chokeholds illegal in Cali?

Nevada. Vegas is Nevada. Not sure the policy there.

His arm is under her chin. Is that a chokehold? I know the narration says so. Not convinced, but not sure.
 

EMaree

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My bad, sorry Rob -- the lady's from California, not in it.

The way the footage is presented in that video looks sloppy to my eyes: they had the lady on the floor and lost control of the situation, they failed at restraining friends trying to get involved, and they not only let the fight steer towards a glass table, but they then used it... whether that's a deliberate move or just poor awareness of their environment, I dunno, but I'm still surprised it got that far.

I really want to believe you when you say this *isn't* an example of brutality, but they could have handled this better than giving the woman 26 stitches and broken teeth. If it's not brutality, it's definitely poor situation control and training.
 

nighttimer

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I think it's worth noting, and witnessing, when police *are* doing their job.

This video from CNN is one such example.

First, the video does not give a whole picture. Granted. But the video has a statement from police at the end that the officer, based on the UNedited version of the security camera footage, acted appropriately.

What I see in that video leads me to agree. It doesn't really show us how the woman in the video got into an altercation with police, but even her own description of events sounds like hedging, and she clearly *is* fighting with police.

I'm concerned with the point where the officer slams her on the table. But it appears (though not sure on this) that she was struggling even then.

I'm sorry about her injuries, but what I see is that police were simply trying to arrest her.

You're struggling too in your effort to find an example of police "doing their job." Because if that's your best example of solid policework, I got a better one.

After a spate of controversial shootings by police officers, a new incident is drawing public attention for the opposite reason: An officer is shown on video refraining from the use of his weapon, despite clearly being in a volatile and dangerous situation.

The incident involving Jesse Kidder, a rookie cop in Ohio, is drawing national publicity and praise as a model of police restraint.

After a car chase Thursday, a murder suspect jumped out of his vehicle and charged at officer Kidder, who got out of his car and had his gun ready – and a body camera running.

Suspect Michael Wilcox was thought to be armed, had a hand in one pocket as he came at the officer, and repeatedly said, “Shoot me.” Kidder replies, “No man. I'm not gonna do it."

In the Ohio case, the officer appeared ready to shoot in self-defense and said he kept his eye on Wilcox’s pocketed hand. At one point, he tumbled backward off his feet. But Kidder's composure and restraint turned the situation around, observers say, as backup arrived and Wilcox stopped charging and put himself face down in the road.

"For him to make the judgment call that he did shows great restraint and maturity," said Randy Harvey, police chief in New Richmond, Ohio, where Kidder works. "This video footage, it eliminated all doubt that this officer would have been justified if, in fact, it came to a shooting."

Police suspected Wilcox of killing his girlfriend in Ohio and a friend in Kentucky before fleeing by car. In charging Kidder, he appears to have been seeking what’s called “suicide by cop,” when a suspect deliberately tries to be shot by police. Kidder backed up during the confrontation, buying some time in an effort to defuse the situation.

"I was trying to open a dialogue with him. 'I don't want to shoot you; just get on the ground.' But he wasn't having it,” Kidder said in a local TV interview.
Officer Kidder showed remarkable restraint and a considerable amount of cool to resolve the situation without violence or possibly shooting and killing Wilcox.

BUT...

Kidder would have been completely justified if he had shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox wasn't cooperating with the officer's orders. Wilcox was a suspect in a murder and was thought to be armed. Wilcox made threatening gestures and charged the officer.

Nobody would question Kidder for pulling the trigger.

So why isn't Wilcox dead meat?
 

asroc

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My bad, sorry Rob -- the lady's from California, not in it.

The way the footage is presented in that video looks sloppy to my eyes: they had the lady on the floor and lost control of the situation, they failed at restraining friends trying to get involved, and they not only let the fight steer towards a glass table, but they then used it... whether that's a deliberate move or just poor awareness of their environment, I dunno, but I'm still surprised it got that far.

I really want to believe you when you say this *isn't* an example of brutality, but they could have handled this better than giving the woman 26 stitches and broken teeth. If it's not brutality, it's definitely poor situation control and training.

Have you ever fought someone? Ever tried to restrain someone who really didn't want to be? It's incredibly difficult, especially if you're trying not to hurt the person and the person has no problem with hurting you. That includes women and even children. I've seen scrawny teenagers buck off three burly cops twice their size. The real world is a lot messier than TV.
 

robjvargas

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I really want to believe you when you say this *isn't* an example of brutality, but they could have handled this better than giving the woman 26 stitches and broken teeth. If it's not brutality, it's definitely poor situation control and training.

Hmm... yeah, I can see that on second viewing. She's fighting really hard in the footage. We don't see how it got to that.

I'm not as sure as you are, but I *can* see that possibility.

NT, that *is* a better example.
 

nighttimer

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NT, that *is* a better example.

I know, right? I'll bet dollars to donuts when Kidder got back to the cop shop he heard more than once, "Man, I would have blown away that son-of-a-biscuit if it had been me."

Cooler heads prevail.
 

Ravioli

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I don't care what police are or aren't allowed to do. Tearing a little girl to the ground and putting her in a chokehold is brutal when she has not been a danger great enough to justify such measures. What she seemed to be doing before she was slammed to the floor, didn't look violent or threatening enough to justify going full goddamn WWF on her. With more than one person no less. Hello.

What exactly was the justification to do slam her into a glass table that could have broken and cut her jugular? She was restrained. She was barely moving. Breaking skin on a glass table takes excessive force. Why was excessive force used? Why was she, after being restrained and barely moving, slammed into the glass so hard she needed 26 stitches?

And saying someone needs/deserves to be handled roughly for fighting police, um, the Gestapo were a legit police force acting in accordance with the law. When the police handle you wrongly, disrespectfully, or abusively, you are not the bad guy for going berserk on them. Even against cops, it is still self defense, and even against cops your rights remain unaltered. Or should. They are the bad guys for making you feel like you have to go berserk. Donning a uniform doesn't put justice on your side, it just makes you immune to it. There's a difference.

And if I had the privilege of investigating myself rather than have an outside eye pry in my wrongdoings, I'd also proudly conclude that I did nothing wrong. Whatever idiot wouldn't? Think on this for a minute. Police get to investigate themselves, so who polices the police to the same degree the police police us? How is that even ethical? How did such an arrangement ever even come to be? How can the police be trusted to be more honest and self-critical than anyone else who is allowed to decide on their own whether or not they did wrong? That system is messed up.
 

EMaree

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Have you ever fought someone? Ever tried to restrain someone who really didn't want to be? It's incredibly difficult, especially if you're trying not to hurt the person and the person has no problem with hurting you. That includes women and even children. I've seen scrawny teenagers buck off three burly cops twice their size. The real world is a lot messier than TV.

Of course I've fought before -- but I don't make a habit of it. I take no particular pleasure in hurting people outside of fiction, I like to stop fights rather than start them. Which is where you're missing my point a bit, it seems. The point of any authority figure in a violent situation isn't to fight well, or fight at all -- it's to stop the situation from escalating.

(Lately authorities seem to be forgetting this, but that's another story.)

Let's take a look at the care industry for a moment. A lot of the training focusses around dealing with violent people who *really really really* don't want to be there, can't control their own strength, and aren't in the state of mind to respond rationally. One of the first things you get taught is to notice environmental dangers, to be aware of it -- if there's anything sharp within ten meters of the person becoming violent, you want to be aware of it beforehand.

If care workers can handle a situation better than this, then I expect police to do better. Dealing with people who are not just violent, but suffering mentally, is a massive part of both roles -- not in this case, but the same training applies here. It's the police that get called if a situation escalates beyond a care worker's control, and they handle things a good bit more delicately than this.
 
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robjvargas

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If care workers can handle a situation better than this, then I expect police to do better. Dealing with people who are not just violent, but suffering mentally, is a massive part of both roles -- not in this case, but the same training applies here. It's the police that get called if a situation escalates beyond a care worker's control, and they handle things a good bit more delicately than this.

Care workers operate in a more or less one-on-one situation. This was in public, in the middle of a casino. Plus we didn't see the beginning.

People *do* exist who escalate before police have an opportunity to apply less forceful techniques.
 

asroc

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So why isn't Wilcox dead meat?

Because the officer made a judgment call, had the right amount of luck and turned out to be right. It's not that rare.

Let's take a look at the care industry for a moment. A lot of the training focusses around dealing with violent people who *really really really* don't want to be there, can't control their own strength, and aren't in the state of mind to respond rationally. One of the first things you get taught is to notice environmental dangers, to be aware of it -- if there's anything sharp within ten meters of the person becoming violent, you want to be aware of it beforehand.

Those are the people I work with every day. Mine are often also intoxicated and tend to carry knives and guns. I am a five-foot-nothing lassie and I'm not allowed a firearm in a profession where the main cause of injury is assault, so I was trained to defend myself, same as my partner and everybody else in public safety.

But you can train all you want, some people will escalate regardless of what you do. I've got some lovely scars on my face because it took two police officers, one medic and two firefighters enough time to pull a guy off me that he could still beat me to a pulp. And I could do nothing besides kneeing him in the nuts, which he didn't even register. (I did actually do quite some damage but he didn't realize that until way after.)

One of the first things they teach you is that you cannot safely subdue someone on your own. Recommended is four people. Because if you try it alone, or if your partner abandons you, like that long-haired cop did in the video, it'll end up very similar to this. You're right, the cop isn't very good, but this is more police reality than brutality.
 

rugcat

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Because the officer made a judgment call, had the right amount of luck and turned out to be right. It's not that rare.
No, It's not.

And until you are faced with such a situation, no one really knows what they will do.

That cop made a judgement call. If he'd been wrong he probably would be dead. He decided to risk his own life to avoid killing a possibly unarmed, though disturbed man.

Most cops I have known would have done the same thing, but quite a few would have shot the man. It's not a situation that has a right or wrong response.

However, we can choose to be cynical and believe, as intimated, if the guy had been black the cop would have shot.

Cause, you know, cops.
 

nighttimer

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The Paranoia Is Strong

Officer Kidder showed remarkable restraint and a considerable amount of cool to resolve the situation without violence or possibly shooting and killing Wilcox.

BUT...

Kidder would have been completely justified if he had shot and killed Wilcox. Wilcox wasn't cooperating with the officer's orders. Wilcox was a suspect in a murder and was thought to be armed. Wilcox made threatening gestures and charged the officer.

Nobody would question Kidder for pulling the trigger.

So why isn't Wilcox dead meat?

Because the officer made a judgment call, had the right amount of luck and turned out to be right. It's not that rare.


No, It's not.

And until you are faced with such a situation, no one really knows what they will do.

That cop made a judgement call. If he'd been wrong he probably would be dead. He decided to risk his own life to avoid killing a possibly unarmed, though disturbed man.

Most cops I have known would have done the same thing, but quite a few would have shot the man. It's not a situation that has a right or wrong response.

However, we can choose to be cynical and believe, as intimated, if the guy had been black the cop would have shot.

Cause, you know, cops.

It's funny how anything which isn't 100% percent unconditional, full-throated support of all cops at all times is taken to be a hidden dig at cops, despite providing an example of a policeman NOT taking the easy option, and demonstrating remarkable restraint, calm, and staying in control of the situation instead of blowing away a man who had already committed one murder and seeming was capable of another.

Or are only ex-cops allowed to venture an opinion here?

It's even funnier how it can be "intimated" if the guy had been Black the White cop would surely have shot him. This despite the race of the cop and the suspect was absent from the offending post. At least it was until someone wandered in and read something that wasn't there until they put it there.

Racial Paranoia. It's not just for Black folks. Particularly not for those whom have theirs cranked up to "11." The cynicism is blooming like crabgrass around here.

What is not so funny is being incapable over mustering up the guts to confront directly the poster whose posts they disdain, but just can't seem to ignore.

That's just pathetic...oh, never mind. Actually, that's the funniest joke yet. :ROFL:
 

rugcat

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It's even funnier how it can be "intimated" if the guy had been Black the White cop would surely have shot him. This despite the race of the cop and the suspect was absent from the offending post. At least it was until someone wandered in and read something that wasn't there until they put it there.
The race of the suspect and the cop didn't need to be in the post. It was clearly established in the video -- the video that you yourself posted a link to, and thus were well aware of.
Racial Paranoia. It's not just for Black folks. Particularly not for those whom have theirs cranked up to "11." The cynicism is blooming like crabgrass around here.
I see. So when you end your post with the question "So why isn't this guy Wilcox dead meat?" it's simple curiosity on your part. No inference should be drawn here. You just like to ponder unknowable questions.
What is not so funny is being incapable over mustering up the guts to confront directly the poster whose posts they disdain, but just can't seem to ignore.

That's just pathetic...oh, never mind. Actually, that's the funniest joke yet. :ROFL:
There are many reasons I no longer wish to interact with you. Most of them I can't post because my post would immediately be deleted by the mods. But perhaps the biggest factor is that I find your posts purposefully dishonest (like this one ) and deliberately misleading.

I no longer have any interest in responding to anything you have to say, though I admit you did manage to get a rise out of me this time simply by using sheer snark.
 
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MacAllister

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Gentlemen, you can both do better. If you need to use your ignore buttons, that's what the software is there for.
 

Roxxsmom

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What exactly was the justification to do slam her into a glass table that could have broken and cut her jugular? She was restrained. She was barely moving. Breaking skin on a glass table takes excessive force. Why was excessive force used? Why was she, after being restrained and barely moving, slammed into the glass so hard she needed 26 stitches?

It seems to me that many police really aren't trained well enough if they don't understand that even someone who knows they've done nothing wrong might panic and struggle if they're being forcefully restrained. Escalating force results in escalating resistance in many cases, and it's not possible to predict who will panic and freeze versus panic and struggle.

Assigning a moral weight to this (he/she deserved to have the shit beaten out of him or her because he/she wouldn't stop struggling, damn it) ignores something pretty fundamental about the human condition. It's very normal to panic in a situation like this. Once you are in pain and can't breathe, you might go limp, or you might flail around more, or you might even lash out.

And in general, the only situation where fighting back or struggling against an assailant is not the wisest course of action is when your assailant is a cop. Some police departments actually teach self defense classes that train victims of assault not to freeze up, but to struggle, fight back, and run from attackers.

Our current approach to law enforcement really doesn't seem to take these basic human truths into consideration. No wonder cops end up killing or shooting so many more people in the US than in other countries. They panic too. And it's always possible to look at any one individual case and justify it with a string if "procedure was followed." But the fact is, this is happening over and over again here in the US, and it's not in other places. Maybe the procedures are broken.

I tend to operate on the assumption that, while some people are more decent/horrible than others, a greater incidence of corruption, violence and abuse in one place versus another is probably not due to the people (whether suspects or cops) themselves being worse human beings overall, but because the system in that place is broken.
 
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Usher

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Fact is the culture in policing is as much to blame for the corruption as good vs bad officers. And it needs to be tackled. The reasons for it come out of the way police forces (before they became a service) were formed - taking on thugs to tackle the other thugs.

Those officers that buy into the culture, may not be corrupt themselves but do not speak up are as much to blame as those who carry out the corruption. In some forces corruption is rife and probably can't be stopped without a massive overhaul and losing a massive portion of its officers. It's the no whistle blowing that makes those officers that do step out of line feel safe.

I'm not sure if it will ever be stopped but social media is again allowing people to take control of the situation.
 
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nighttimer

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The race of the suspect and the cop didn't need to be in the post. It was clearly established in the video -- the video that you yourself posted a link to, and thus were well aware of.

Yes it was. However, you felt it necessary to hammer race into the debate in case anyone wasn't clear on the point.

rugcat said:
I see. So when you end your post with the question "So why isn't this guy Wilcox dead meat?" it's simple curiosity on your part. No inference should be drawn here. You just like to ponder unknowable questions.

Actually, I do. Writers on occasion ponder unknowable questions.

I ended my post how I chose to end it. Whatever "inference" someone draws from it springs entirely from whatever is going on in their head and not from some subversive, subliminal message I slipped in.

rugcat said:
There are many reasons I no longer wish to interact with you. Most of them I can't post because my post would immediately be deleted by the mods. But perhaps the biggest factor is that I find your posts purposefully dishonest (like this one ) and deliberately misleading.

The solution then is to not find my posts. Don't respond to them. Don't acknowledge them. Don't reference them. Don't read them. Blot them from your reality. Problem solved.

Regardless of whether you no longer wish to interact with me, I trust you are quite aware I have no reluctance in saying exactly what I think in a way which makes it plain yet does not break the RYFW rule and my post is not immediately deleted by the mods.

Disagreement is a component of debate. Choosing to be disagreeable and making it personal is a decision.

rugcat said:
I no longer have any interest in responding to anything you have to say, though I admit you did manage to get a rise out of me this time simply by using sheer snark.

Whatever. :rolleyes

Gentlemen, you can both do better. If you need to use your ignore buttons, that's what the software is there for.

I would tend to agree and I do use the Ignore button for those posters I do not wish to interact with.

It is equally easy to ignore the posters one has no interest in responding to. It only requires a bit of will power to do so.
 

DancingMaenid

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It seems to me that many police really aren't trained well enough if they don't understand that even someone who knows they've done nothing wrong might panic and struggle if they're being forcefully restrained. Escalating force results in escalating resistance in many cases, and it's not possible to predict who will panic and freeze versus panic and struggle.

Assigning a moral weight to this (he/she deserved to have the shit beaten out of him or her because he/she wouldn't stop struggling, damn it) ignores something pretty fundamental about the human condition. It's very normal to panic in a situation like this. Once you are in pain and can't breathe, you might go limp, or you might flail around more, or you might even lash out.

I agree with this.

Without seeing the entire incident, or being able to hear what was said, it's hard to be sure. It's possible that she was simply being very combatant. It's also possible that she was caught up in the fight, her adrenaline was rushing, and she either wasn't aware that she was being grabbed by a cop or wasn't in a position, mentally, to react appropriately to that fact.

I think it's asking a lot to expect people not to fight back or react negatively when grabbed by a stranger, especially if they don't get much warning.

That doesn't mean that police shouldn't try to restrain someone if it seems like a situation where doing so is necessary, but I do think that police officers need to be aware that fighting back can be a normal reflex, and that a person in the middle of a stressful confrontation may not fully understand orders that are given by police. Resisting isn't always intentional defiance.

Whether the officer was justified in restraining her or not, I think it wasn't done very carefully in this instance. It disturbs me that someone who didn't seem to be posing a very big threat received such potentially serious injuries.
 

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But remember police officers whatever their training are also human -- should we ask in every case that they don't react in a similar manner when someone grabs their neck etc

That police officer could be on his third incident that day or had an argument at home or his child is sick in hospital etc They're not well funded enough to only have the officers with no issues on the street at a given time.

Asking them to be superhuman is part of what results in the cover ups.
 

DancingMaenid

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But remember police officers whatever their training are also human -- should we ask in every case that they don't react in a similar manner when someone grabs their neck etc

That police officer could be on his third incident that day or had an argument at home or his child is sick in hospital etc They're not well funded enough to only have the officers with no issues on the street at a given time.

The difference is that cops are given all the power, here. They are given the freedom to exercise force in restraining people (to a reasonable degree), and are, in fact, in a position where they can expect to find themselves in such a situation. On the other hand, someone who reflexively reacts to being manhandled by police can expect to be charged with resisting arrest or assault on a police officer.

I don't expect cops to be superhuman, but I do expect them to take responsibility when they knowingly put themselves in a position where they're likely to have physical confrontations. That is assumption of the risk. A firefighter who gets hurt while tending to a house fire can't sue the person who owns the house. And police, unlike most of the population, should have training specifically on how to deal with situations like this. I wouldn't expect a random person to react calmly if they're forced to give aid to someone who's severely injured and bleeding profusely, but I do expect doctors to remain calm in such a situation.
 

Usher

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And police, unlike most of the population, should have training specifically on how to deal with situations like this. I wouldn't expect a random person to react calmly if they're forced to give aid to someone who's severely injured and bleeding profusely, but I do expect doctors to remain calm in such a situation.

And you don't think that maybe this attitude by the public contributes towards the ass covering? It's the same when doctors make mistakes.

We do expect them to be superhuman and that's unfair. A doctor who's dealing with the severely injured is not specifically at risk, if a fireman makes a serious mistake it's often placing themselves at risk - if a policeman has a moment of fear...

I'm not supporting police brutality but I think changes need to be made in our perceptions as well as their culture if we are to change things.
 
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