Bruce Jenner: The Interview

Lyv

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Frankly, the thread is more interesting to me when people feel free to say what they think, not when they feel like they have to refute whatever I say.
I don't know if that's directed at me, or if I am included, because I responded with a link that did seem to refute what you were saying, and you bowed out shortly after, but it was not my intention to refute anything. I went to look for information because I had been surprised to wake up and see friends using male pronouns for Jenner. I shared the information, which I thought would be helpful for the thread. I don't regret it, though I think you could add a lot to this thread.
 

Diana Hignutt

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I don't know if that's directed at me, or if I am included, because I responded with a link that did seem to refute what you were saying, and you bowed out shortly after, but it was not my intention to refute anything. I went to look for information because I had been surprised to wake up and see friends using male pronouns for Jenner. I shared the information, which I thought would be helpful for the thread. I don't regret it, though I think you could add a lot to this thread.

No, I had no idea about the pronouns. I simply made the correction and moved on. Nothing to do with you at all.
 

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Frankly, the thread is more interesting to me when people feel free to say what they think, not when they feel like they have to refute whatever I say.

And for the record, my criticisms of Jenner were conditional. But if this turns out to be about promoting his new reality tv show...then I will be mad. Most trans people suffer. Many die. All for struggle with our identities and social reactions. If Jenner attempts to profit from that struggle...I'll have a problem with it.

What happens if people saying what they think just HAPPENS to refute what you say?
 

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Frankly, the thread is more interesting to me when people feel free to say what they think, not when they feel like they have to refute whatever I say.

And for the record, my criticisms of Jenner were conditional. But if this turns out to be about promoting his new reality tv show...then I will be mad. Most trans people suffer. Many die. All for struggle with our identities and social reactions. If Jenner attempts to profit from that struggle...I'll have a problem with it.


Bruce Jenner may be (is) a trainwreck, but directing anger at him because he's rich, and because he's not being a good trans role model, seems like a bad standard to uphold.
 

CassandraW

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What happens if people saying what they think just HAPPENS to refute what you say?

She said she was dropping out of the thread. Which I think is a real shame.

When we discuss issues of race and gender in this forum, I think we generally grant precedence to those who have greater experience of these things than we do ourselves. I have no experience in this area, and am quite interested in Diana's take.
 

robeiae

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If Jenner attempts to profit from that struggle...I'll have a problem with it.
Frankly, I don't see how he's not going to profit from it, from a strictly financial perspective.

And it may very well be the case that he would be better off--from a health and happiness perspective--if none of this was taking place in the public eye. But that ship has sailed (and yeah, that's a decision he owns).

Still, as I noted in my initial post, I thought the interview provided a great deal of helpful information that wasn't specific to Jenner at all. As I said, my daughter and her friends had a lot of "oh" moments. They're smart kids, to be sure, and were aware of sex/gender distinctions. But now, I think, they're more aware and better informed.

Bruce Jenner may be (is) a trainwreck, but directing anger at him because he's rich, and because he's not being a good trans role model, seems like a bad standard to uphold.
Agree.
 

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I'm pretty sure it's going to sadden me if I find out that Jenner is using this to feather his own nest. That said, I have no idea what legal, financial or other obligations he is also having to meet. It might be that he's stuck and that my irritation is more accurately to be pointed at a network or a group of lawyers.

How often does work get in the way of the struggles in the rest of our lives? For him, some of that work plays out on camera. Not a choice (I hope) that I would make, but there it is.
 

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I'm pretty sure it's going to sadden me if I find out that Jenner is using this to feather his own nest. That said, I have no idea what legal, financial or other obligations he is also having to meet. It might be that he's stuck and that my irritation is more accurately to be pointed at a network or a group of lawyers.

How often does work get in the way of the struggles in the rest of our lives? For him, some of that work plays out on camera. Not a choice (I hope) that I would make, but there it is.

ETA: Full disclosure- I don't think I could pick a Kardashian out of a line up. I had no idea of any of this until this thread started. So, in fairness to Diana and others, it's more than a bit easier for me. I don't have the personal or real world investment in this issue that others do.
 
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nighttimer

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Bruce Jenner may be (is) a trainwreck, but directing anger at him because he's rich, and because he's not being a good trans role model, seems like a bad standard to uphold.

I think I agree with this. Maybe Jenner is going public to pimp a reality show and while it's not admirable, he wouldn't be the first to do it.

As far as being a good trans role model or any sort of role model at all, not everyone is cut out for the part. Laverne Cox is, and she spoke with and congratulated Jenner for the interview.

Laverne Cox congratulated Bruce Jenner on his interview with Diane Sawyer on Friday night. The Orange Is The New Black star shared her support for the 65-year-old Olympian after the interview aired.

“Sending lots of love and support of #BruceJenner and their family tonight. It is always brave to stand in one’s truth. Congrats darling.”
Cox also attended the 2015 White House Correspondents Dinner on Sunday night, as reported by Bustle. The actress spoke with MSNBC’s Janet Mock about Bruce Jenner’s interview and how it helped save lives that night.
“I think a lot of people tuned in expecting to see a spectacle, and they tuned in and saw a profoundly nuanced, complicated, beautiful human being. I thought ABC handled it really beautifully… I had spoken to Bruce several months back, and the same person I had spoken to on the phone, who really just loves their children so much and wants their family to be happy, was the person I saw on television last night.”
Laverne also revealed her exchange with Bruce when they spoke on the phone earlier that day.
“[I said] This is sort of like another gold medal. And they said, ‘This is better than a gold medal.’ “
Laverne Cox became an important figure for the transgender community. She also became the first transgender person to be nominated for an Emmy, according to People magazine. She’s seen how her fame and visibility has helped inspire other transgender men and women, but she said that visibility isn’t the only thing that the community needs. Cox added that there’s still a lot work that needs to be done on lowering the suicide rates and ridding discrimination against transgender people.
“I’ve heard from so many people that have been saved because of my visibility, but visibility still doesn’t save a lot of trans lives a lot of those who are still committing suicide, still being murdered at disproportionate levels, still experiencing job discrimination, housing discrimination, healthcare discrimination.
There is so much more work that needs to be done to policy and structural changes.”
 

CassandraW

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I'm torn -- on the one hand, this is Bruce's transition, and no one else's. I sympathize with the difficulties any transition would entail. And yeah, no one is obligated to be a role model.

On the other, I find nearly everything about the Kardashian clan preposterous and annoying. I would not want them to be associated with any cause close to my heart. And (taking Bruce's transition quite aside) I admit I have a knee-jerk negative reaction to reality show stars making a circus out of what seem to me to be extremely serious, highly personal issues.

Anyway, I get why Diana feels the way she does.
 

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She said she was dropping out of the thread. Which I think is a real shame.

When we discuss issues of race and gender in this forum, I think we generally grant precedence to those who have greater experience of these things than we do ourselves. I have no experience in this area, and am quite interested in Diana's take.

I think it's a shame, too. I was assuming she was doing it because she didn't want to take part, not because she felt she wasn't welcome to take part.

That said - I agree with her that these conversations are most interesting when everyone says what they think. I don't want to have to not say what I think just because it is contrary to what she seems to think.

That said, I think I'll bow out. I don't have anything new to add, anyway.
 

CassandraW

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For the record -- I don't like to see anyone bow out. IMO, it's interesting to compare different points of view.
 

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Did he discuss why he did it the way he did it? I only saw the last hour.

I can think of reasons why someone might go on and wear nail polish, get Adam's apple surgery, etc, before publicly coming out, but the only thing that makes me wonder is it ended up becoming a guessing game with Bruce. Given his knowledge about the entertainment press, he had to have known that would happen. I do wonder whether he enjoyed the guessing game, because he's a reality show star.

OTOH, there really could be other reasons than that. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
 

DancingMaenid

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The Standard of Care serve a purpose and I think they've been influential in helping many trans people get treatment. But they're also limited, and it's important that they be flexible and non-binding.

I respect that for many binary trans people, the Standards of Care are an okay fit because the process of living as the opposite sex, going by new pronouns, and following a standard regimen of hormone therapy possibly followed by surgery makes sense for them and addresses their dysphoria. But even among binary trans people, I've heard a lot of stories of people lying to their therapists or letting their therapists lie so that their story would match the standard "trans narrative" a little better. For example, I read a guy's blog about his transition a while back, and he talked about how his therapist, in the letters she wrote for him authorizing hormones and surgery, would talk about how as a child, he hated wearing dresses and playing with "girl" toys. But this was completely untrue. He'd had no problem wearing dresses as a child.

My therapist took for granted that I was a trans man for months before I finally worked up the nerve to say that that wasn't quite how I identified. I'm glad that the Standards of Care aren't as rigid as they used to be, because it means that if I do get top surgery, I have the option of going with a surgeon who is willing to go by informed consent and operate on people who aren't on hormones or don't identify as male. Otherwise, I would have to lie about who I am in order to treat my dysphoria.

So while I don't really trust the mainstream media's ability to use good judgment when it comes to pronouns, I fully support the right of trans people to approach their own transitions in ways that deviate from the standard expectations.
 

Diana Hignutt

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The Standard of Care serve a purpose and I think they've been influential in helping many trans people get treatment. But they're also limited, and it's important that they be flexible and non-binding.

I respect that for many binary trans people, the Standards of Care are an okay fit because the process of living as the opposite sex, going by new pronouns, and following a standard regimen of hormone therapy possibly followed by surgery makes sense for them and addresses their dysphoria. But even among binary trans people, I've heard a lot of stories of people lying to their therapists or letting their therapists lie so that their story would match the standard "trans narrative" a little better. For example, I read a guy's blog about his transition a while back, and he talked about how his therapist, in the letters she wrote for him authorizing hormones and surgery, would talk about how as a child, he hated wearing dresses and playing with "girl" toys. But this was completely untrue. He'd had no problem wearing dresses as a child.

My therapist took for granted that I was a trans man for months before I finally worked up the nerve to say that that wasn't quite how I identified. I'm glad that the Standards of Care aren't as rigid as they used to be, because it means that if I do get top surgery, I have the option of going with a surgeon who is willing to go by informed consent and operate on people who aren't on hormones or don't identify as male. Otherwise, I would have to lie about who I am in order to treat my dysphoria.

So while I don't really trust the mainstream media's ability to use good judgment when it comes to pronouns, I fully support the right of trans people to approach their own transitions in ways that deviate from the standard expectations.

You know? I honestly think my binary trans woman privilege is involved here, as ridiculous as that sounds at first. Also, my disdain for all things Kardashian. Thanks.

(Diana, not being too successful in bowing out...)
 

MarkEsq

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You know? I honestly think my binary trans woman privilege is involved here, as ridiculous as that sounds at first. Also, my disdain for all things Kardashian. Thanks.

(Diana, not being too successful in bowing out...)

This has to be one of the finest statements ever at AW. Nine different ways.

Diana, you're a class act. (And please don't bow out, I think your perspective is invaluable here.)
 

CassandraW

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This has to be one of the finest statements ever at AW. Nine different ways.

Diana, you're a class act. (And please don't bow out, I think your perspective is invaluable here.)

Seconded, all round.
 

jari_k

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Frankly, I don't see how he's not going to profit from it, from a strictly financial perspective.

And it may very well be the case that he would be better off--from a health and happiness perspective--if none of this was taking place in the public eye. But that ship has sailed (and yeah, that's a decision he owns).

Still, as I noted in my initial post, I thought the interview provided a great deal of helpful information that wasn't specific to Jenner at all. As I said, my daughter and her friends had a lot of "oh" moments. They're smart kids, to be sure, and were aware of sex/gender distinctions. But now, I think, they're more aware and better informed.


Agree.
I think that was my takeaway, too. Although Bruce Jenner came across more as human being and less as reality TV personality, in the end, what I got from it wasn't specific to his situation. It's more about the subject as a whole, and I am sorry to say I was woefully uninformed, so am now glad to have more knowledge. I think the interview accomplished that much. If it helped transgender teens or others reach out for help, that's great.

What it didn't do was give me any desire to follow Bruce Jenner's life story any further. I think people interested in any further reality TV venture will be those who were interested in it before. It's not how I choose to burn TV hours, but I'm glad I took in the interview.
 

DancingMaenid

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You know? I honestly think my binary trans woman privilege is involved here, as ridiculous as that sounds at first. Also, my disdain for all things Kardashian. Thanks.

(Diana, not being too successful in bowing out...)

I think the privilege can go both ways, and that different experiences carry different types of privilege and lack of privilege. Sometimes I envy binary trans people for being able to say that they are a particular gender and take measures to live as that gender. Sometimes I wish things were that clear-cut for me. But I'm also very aware that I'm fortunate that transitioning is an option for me as opposed to something that's mandatory for my mental health, and that my dysphoria isn't as severe as it is for many binary-identified trans people. So I definitely don't want to talk over people who have had those more traditional experiences. But I can also relate to what it's like to not have that traditional path and have a hard time finding a community or a voice because of it.

There's no easy path, I don't think.

I do hear you on your Kardashian cynicism, though. I do hope that this isn't milked for publicity.

Sorry, but what's "binary trans" mean?

A person who identifies as strictly male or female, as opposed to non-binary, genderqueer, or another less rigid male/female identity.

Most female-to-male and male-to-female trans people identify as binary, though some people transition but identify as non-binary.