Men Have Problems.

Amadan

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She was part of my larger social crowd, and occasionally I was treated to hearing her fret about "dating down." Frankly, I always itched to tell her he was much too good for her. But the fact was -- she was attracted to him. She was worried that others would perceive him as not being up to standard.


I'd be itching to tell that guy to run.

Imagine finding out that your girlfriend thinks she "settled" for you.
 

CassandraW

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I'd be itching to tell that guy to run.

Imagine finding out that your girlfriend thinks she "settled" for you.

Heh. I was itching to tell him to run. Only at the time, I knew her much better than I knew him.

Here's the good news. They broke up a while ago; he's engaged to someone else. I'm still good friends with him and his fiancee, but I cut ties with Ms. Fluent French a couple of years ago. And yeah, I have since told him, (after a couple of scotches), that he had a lucky escape.

While it sucks to feel like someone settled for you, it's also weird to feel like someone wants you for a collection of superficial status reasons. I've been there at least once. I don't think the guy genuinely appreciated a damn thing about my character and sense of humor. He just thought I checked off all the right status boxes on his particular weird laundry list. Once I started to smell that -- yeah, I got out.

Nowadays, if a guy doesn't think I'm funny, he's out immediately -- because whatever he thinks, he doesn't like me.
 

robjvargas

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I have never used a man for money or status. Not sure how that's even done, unless you're either a prostitute or willing to spend a hell of a lot of time as arm candy for someone you don't actually love in order to get stuff - which, to me, is pretty much the same thing as being a prostitute.
Anna Nicole Smith. I don't think she was prostituting herself. But she married a much older man with a ton of money, and I believe the money was part of her attraction to him.

I think it's entirely possible that such women aren't so much prostituting as they are using money as a measure of safety.

I don't think it's necessarily bad. It's a choice that someone makes.
 

Monkey

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I don't think prostitution is necessarily bad. It's just a choice that doesn't work for me. But in my mind, sex with someone you wouldn't want to sleep with unless there was compensation of some sort involved is prostitution.

I probably should have worded things in a way to make it clear that I'm not trying to lay negative judgment, though.
 

CassandraW

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With prostitution, it's all on the table -- it's an exchange of money for sex. Love, esteem, etc. are not involved. Personally, I suspect the Anna Nicole marriage was pretty much on that level. He wanted a hot tootsie, she wanted his money, and I doubt either was kidding themselves about it. And I don't really have any problem with that, if we've got two consenting adults and no coercion.

I have a much bigger problem with someone who pretends love and esteem, when all she/he is really after is money.
 
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Roxxsmom

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I have never used a man for money or status. Not sure how that's even done, unless you're either a prostitute or willing to spend a hell of a lot of time as arm candy for someone you don't actually love in order to get stuff - which, to me, is pretty much the same thing as being a prostitute.

Neither have I, but there was a school of thought that was still popular when I was younger that one should fall in love with and marry with a rich, professional guy if possible (find yourself a nice doctor or lawyer, dearie), and that women could "marry up" in class/social status more easily than men could.

I've met men who seriously believe that feminism has robbed men of their purpose, because women are so darned free and self-sufficient now that men can no longer be providers/protectors. Without that role, the thought goes, they are so bereft of purpose that they become misogynistic rapists (or something). Feminism is to blame for violence against women [sic].

I guess there was no violence against women at all back in the old days before feminism took hold. Sorry writers of grimdark. The middle ages were a time of chivalry and high-mindedness after all, where no woman was ever assaulted or insulted, and all men felt financially responsible for the women they had sex with (and took responsibility for any resulting children).

I'd be itching to tell that guy to run.

Imagine finding out that your girlfriend thinks she "settled" for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3k_JvrYsAQ
 
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backslashbaby

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Who would want a partner they weren't attracted to?

"It's a shame it's had to come to this, but will you be my partner?"

"Okay! Who gives a shit."

I had that happen, and it turned into a long relationship. I didn't think I was attracted to him that way, and we were friends. Frankly, it was after he kissed me that I got the spark :D He was the best in bed ever, as it turns out. You just wouldn't know it by watching him goof around at the park ;)

It wasn't that I found him unattractive before. It's just that his normal behavior didn't flip my trigger sexually. He had a secret stealth mode that did it! And he was great fun in his funny-guy mode, too, so it worked all around!

Looks themselves aren't what gets me, though. I'm about mannerisms, I think maybe. And when it gets down to it with primal attraction, I'm about pretty intimate stuff, lol. So an 'ugly' dude could work just great with me, depending!

I've also dated good-looking guys who didn't do it for me so much in bed or kissing. That sort of thing is just so idiosyncratic, imho. You never know until you go there with the person you like.
 

C.bronco

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I truly think that when we are enjoying being by ourselves that we become the most attractive. We all know Kuwis and know how awesome and talented he is. He will find a good person.

Kuwis, I agree that sometimes location makes the difference!
 

Celia Cyanide

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With prostitution, it's all on the table -- it's an exchange of money for sex. Love, esteem, etc. are not involved. Personally, I suspect the Anna Nicole marriage was pretty much on that level. He wanted a hot tootsie, she wanted his money, and I doubt either was kidding themselves about it. And I don't really have any problem with that, if we've got two consenting adults and no coercion.

I agree. While I can understand that some people don't approve of a situation like that, I don't like the way they seem to judge the woman much more harshly than the man. I*don't know either of the people involved, but I don't know why so many people are willing to assume she was lying to an old man who loved her and believed she loved him. It seemed much more likely that he wanted a hot wife, and she wanted a rich husband. They both got along and respected each other, so they got married. It's not why many people chose to get married, but it doesn't make her a bad person and him a victim.
 

The Otter

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I don't imagine that they are open to that, because they obviously come about being MRAs because of expectations and attitudes about women that are so firmly in the 'sexist pig' category that requires seeing a hot girl as some sort of trophy that they deserve. I think bi-sexual relationships would blow their minds trying to figure out the 'roles and rules', but that's just a guess.

Karen Straughan is bisexual and genderqueer. I don't doubt there are gay and bisexual male MRAs too.

I'd consider them all to be plenty wrong about a wide variety of topics, but wrongness is rarely confined to a single demographic.
 

Roxxsmom

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Karen Straughan is bisexual and genderqueer. I don't doubt there are gay and bisexual male MRAs too.

I'd consider them all to be plenty wrong about a wide variety of topics, but wrongness is rarely confined to a single demographic.

True, and people of all kinds can be intriguing bundles of contradictions and internal inconsistencies too.
 

backslashbaby

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^^^I guess so, y'all :) I do stereotype MRA males, but so far that's because the writing and comments I've seen have all been practically caricatures, and that's on them! I'll try to be fair, though.

Ooh, actually I've known one very sexist gay man. If sexism against women is the big thing with them, I could see him being an MRA. I could see a bi guy doing the whole 'I deserve a gorgeous woman' thing, too, then, yeah. I take it back! Thanks for making me really think through that, you two :)
 

Monkey

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Yeah, some of the most virulently sexist people I've come across have been young gay males. It's almost like it was a rebellion against the societal pressure to like girls - but that was just my own impression, and certainly not all young gay males have any sort of misogynistic tendencies.
 

Brutal Mustang

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In my experience, cis-het guys are generally far and away the biggest exhibitors of sexism and misogyny, whether minor and subtle, or horrible and blatant. That doesn't mean nobody else can run the gamut however they like, though.

Agreed. Personally haven't met a gay man who didn't love and respect women. On the other hand, a lot of the top MRA websites are blatantly anti-gay.