Jettisoned Over Jesus

If, for the sake of argument, they had thrown 12 black men overboard because of their color, would you object to William listing "race" as option one?

wouldn't most say such an attack was racially motivated, and indeed, wouldn't some be offended if you suggested it was not?

Well, how do you explain all the people who eat ice cream and yet don't commit murder?

The commonality isn't religion. It's hate, fear, ignorance, etc. All of which can be components of religion as some people choose to interpret it. But not "religion."

CassandraW said:

If, for the sake of argument, they had thrown 12 black men overboard because of their color, would you object to William listing "race" as option one?

wouldn't most say such an attack was racially motivated, and indeed, wouldn't some be offended if you suggested it was not?

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I do believe that those poor people were thrown overboard because "they were Christians" (religion). No doubt about that. I don't think that the throwers did it because, religion. Sorry, I may have missed the entire point of this thread and its poll.

William Haskins said:

you may need some time to work through your own internal debate before engaging externally.

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Thanks for the suggestion. I know how much you care.

The point is that yes, these people targeted people outside their religious group. But it doesn't meant that they, the murderers, did it because religion causes people to murder.

And again, my apologies if this wasn't the underlying intent of the only conceivably applicable poll option.

the only conceivably applicable poll option.

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I don't know about that -- seems pretty clear to me William should have included "ice cream" as a poll option.

It would have been better than soccer. Jesus Christ.

ETA:

CassandraW said:

If, for the sake of argument, they had thrown 12 black men overboard because of their color, would you object to William listing "race" as option one?

wouldn't most say such an attack was racially motivated, and indeed, wouldn't some be offended if you suggested it was not?

Click to expand...

The correlation here, as I see it, would be if the poll option had indicated "race" to mean "white people." There is a difference between claiming that an action is motivated by racism, versus claiming that people who committed the racism are white, so of course they're going to do that sort of thing. The idea that people who are white are always racist, or prone to racism, or some other Bad Characteristic because they're white, would be ridiculous.

Chrissy said:

The correlation here, as I see it, would be if the poll option had indicated "race" to mean "white people." There is a difference between claiming that an action is motivated by racism, versus claiming that people who committed the racism are white, so of course they're going to do that sort of thing. The idea that people who are white are always racist, or prone to racism, or some other Bad Characteristic because they're white, would be ridiculous.

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If a bunch of white supremacists threw black people overboard or black supremacists threw white people overboard, would any of us say that the race of the victims and the racism of the perpetrators wasn't a factor?

You may well all be in the same boat, don't mean you're all on the same side... which would be stupid because then it'd tip and everyone would die.

Seriously though, WTF some interfaith solidarity can't hurt.

William Haskins said:

those are all covered in the first option.

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Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!

William Haskins said:

i don't accept your premise.

eating ice cream as a gateway behavior leading to murder is both well-documented and quite frightening. this is why most religions forbid it.

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It's chilling.

Chrissy said:

This is like saying that serial murders happen more often in the summer, and ice cream sales go up the summer, so ice cream is responsible for serial murders.

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Hey, that looks like the way many of the Religious in my area think!

Chrissy said:

Well, how do you explain all the people who eat ice cream and yet don't commit murder?

The commonality isn't religion. It's hate, fear, ignorance, etc. All of which can be components of religion as some people choose to interpret it. But not "religion."

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Chrissy said:

I do believe that those poor people were thrown overboard because "they were Christians" (religion). No doubt about that. I don't think that the throwers did it because, religion. Sorry, I may have missed the entire point of this thread and its poll.

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Chrissy said:

It would have been better than soccer. Jesus Christ.

ETA:



The correlation here, as I see it, would be if the poll option had indicated "race" to mean "white people." There is a difference between claiming that an action is motivated by racism, versus claiming that people who committed the racism are white, so of course they're going to do that sort of thing. The idea that people who are white are always racist, or prone to racism, or some other Bad Characteristic because they're white, would be ridiculous.

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RichardGarfinkle said:

The racism is the cause of the action, not the race as race. That is the cause of the action is the attitude toward race.

In this case the word religion is covering both the equivalent of race and the equivalent of racism. No distinction is being made between religion and religious prejudice.

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All of this seems to me to be bending over backwards to not try and tie this to religion because of the religion. This action was done because of religious motives. The people who committed the act believed their religion allows it, commands it, what have you. It's not an indictment of all people who follow the same religion.

If it had been 12 abortion doctors thrown off the boat by crazy conservative Christians, it would be a religious crime, even though the doctors may all have different faiths. Maybe some even considered themselves Christians. It's not wagging a finger at all Christians, but all who interpret it in the same way.

At least IMHO.

For you? Whatever floats your boat.

Until someone throws you off of it.

RichardGarfinkle said:

It is true that many people teach religious prejudice as part of religion, but it is not inherently so.

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You're saying this teaching is not the religion? Yes, that makes sense to me. I've known, lived with and love a lot of Muslims. No-one I've known - Muslim or not - isn't loudly appalled by fundamentalist intolerance posing as Islam, or any other religion. To me it seems very - well - ignorant to conflate this kind of outrage with Islam - whether it's conflated by the perpetrators or the commentators.

Vince524 said:

All of this seems to me to be bending over backwards to not try and tie this to religion because of the religion. This action was done because of religious motives. The people who committed the act believed their religion allows it, commands it, what have you. It's not an indictment of all people who follow the same religion.

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Unfortunately, though, it can be. I think there are a lot of people who are experiencing discrimination based on the perception that being Muslim means you secretly want to murder people, or at the very least, you're not opposed to it.

That's why the distinction is important. And it's not being made:

Chrissy said:

Okay fine. I withdraw my objection to your poll options. But you could have added a few more.

Irrational hate

Prejudice

Idiocy/ignorance

Bad manners

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William Haskins said:

those are all covered in the first option.

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Do people really think that absent religion, there would be no hate, prejudice, or ignorance?

Religion is just a tool. It's not the cause. It's not the thing to blanket-blame. It's not the answer to why people are murdered.

There is a difference between assuming that most Muslims commit religiously-motivated atrocities, and noting the high correlation between religiously-motivated atrocities and Muslims.

Amadan said:

There is a difference between assuming that most Muslims commit religiously-motivated atrocities, and noting the high correlation between religiously-motivated atrocities and Muslims.

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How does that correlate with the incidence between religiously-motivated atrocities and non-Muslims? Just out of interest: I don't know.

mccardey said:

How does that correlate with the incidence between religiously-motivated atrocities and non-Muslims? Ou

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Well, it certainly happens, but if you hear about someone being beheaded, burned alive, stoned, thrown over the side of a boat, or blown up by a suicide bomber, what are the odds about the religious affiliation of the perpetrator?

(No, before you demand a link, I do not know if anyone has actually compiled numbers to answer this question, but let's take an educated guess.)

William did not say, and never has said, all Muslims do this or are responsible for it.

But as far as substituting "hate" or "prejudice", you are just twisting yourself in a knot. In this instance, the hate/prejudice is motivated by the religion of both the perpetrators and the victims. They didn't randomly select 12 people with big noses. They selected 12 Christians because they were Christians and tossed them over.

We have no trouble yelling racism and sexism when they are the motivators behind a hate crime. We do not hide behind " it's just hate."

Amadan said:

Well, it certainly happens, but if you hear about someone being beheaded, burned alive, stoned, thrown over the side of a boat, or blown up by a suicide bomber, what are the odds about the religious affiliation of the perpetrator?

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So, without religious affiliations, there would be no unrest in the Middle East. No war, no hatred, just everyone getting along. So happy together.

Amadan said:

(No, before you demand a link, I do not know if anyone has actually compiled numbers to answer this question, but let's take an educated guess.)

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Oh, ok. I wasn't going to demand anything - I was just asking if you had info.