"American Sniper" Chris Kyle: Patriot or Psychopath?

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But I will take issue with some of the comments about snipers. During WWII, my father was a sniper in the Phillipines and other areas. He was also the kindest, gentlest man I've ever known. He told me, years later, that he happened to be one of the better shots in his outfit and that's how he got selected for the job, and they only did what was necessary to keep their own people from being picked off by enemy snipers.

Cowardly? I suppose that's why he was awarded the Bronze Star for helping recover the wounded under heavy enemy fire. He wasn't shooting then, but it's hardly something a coward would do.

Yeah, I don't see how it's cowardly to be a sniper. That is blanketly unfair. It's a specialized skill set that is very valuable. I don't think it's specifically more heroic than any other battlefield work, but certainly open for acts of heroism and the accolades that come with heroic acts.
 

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It's a matter of perspective.

Some people will call them cowardly, others will only call "other" snipers cowardly while calling our own heroic. Others will tell you that snipers have to actually see their targets "up close" through the scope, so the kills hit them harder than a pilot who can wipe out an entire swath of people but never see a single face.
 

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Maybe this is just me, but I think this might have been one of those "you laugh, so you don't cry."

I mean, if I killed 150+ people, I'd want to think they were all utterly evil bastards who deserved it. If I didn't think that, then I'd have to start thinking about the alternative possibilities. Then I'd have to start thinking about the consequences of every single time I pulled the trigger. Then...well, then it won't be 150 points I scored, 150 reasons why my countrymen love me, 150 reasons to be proud.

It'd be 150 brothers, sons, fathers, husbands and friends I killed.

At the end of the day, I don't know whether Kyle was psychotic before he went to war. But after it? Maybe a little.
 

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I have an acquaintance who was deployed in Iraq as a sniper. He was very quiet, almost withdrawn. He never spoke about his experiences – the only reason I even knew about it was that a fairly close friend of mine was also a friend of his and mentioned it to me.

Psychopath as a psychiatric term is one thing. But it's often used in a lay sense for people who are aggressive and unpleasant and don't really give a shit about anyone but themselves and their friends.

Plus, there are some people who enjoy combat in war. They like the excitement, the danger, and yes, the opportunity to legally kill other people. You could argue that these people often make the best soldiers.

I knew a Vietnam vet who confessed that his tours of duty in 'Nam were the happiest times of his life. He joined the police department because he missed that rush, but found police work a poor substitute, sadly lacking in the thrills he'd come to love. The job bored him, basically.

There really is such a thing as a warrior mentality. But lying and braggadocio is not necessarily part of it. Rather than calling Kyle a psychopath, I just see him as someone one with that warrior mentality who coincidentally also happened to be somewhat of a liar and an a–hole.
 

nighttimer

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Heroes Are Hard to Find

While in the service, Chris Kyle did his job as a sniper. This makes him no more a murderer than any typical service member serving during times of combat operations. If you think of all service members as murderers, so be it. Kyle's unofficial and self-proclaimed kill numbers pale in comparison to drone operators. On the same hand, Kyle is no more a hero or patriot for his actions than any other service member.

Snipers are generally thought of poorly by military personnel, but that is typically restricted to "the other guy's" snipers. Snipers actually play very important roles, from overwatch protection to forward scouts, etc. And the majority of them never fire their weapon.

That's Kyle's military service. His actions afterward are less flattering. He become a self-promoting, self aggrandizing asshole who told bullshit stories to make himself appear to be some kind of battlefield God. Even stories that were obvious bullshit, such as sniping looters in New Orleans or shooting two would-be carjackers at a gas station have been swallowed whole by an ignorant public. The same public that thinks shooting guns out of hands, hitting a suspect in the leg from 100 yards, and any other number of similar Hollywood myths in anyway represent reality.

Even Kyle's story about a confrontation with Jesse Ventura was proven false.

I'll respect his service, but I'll gladly call him a self-serving asshole for his actions once he left the service.

That is just about as perfect a summation as I've read anywhere. Kudos. :Thumbs:

I'll add that it's funny to me how Ava DuVernay's superb Selma gets dinged for not portraying President Lyndon Johnson as a "White savior" of the civil rights movement and it probably cost the film several Oscar nods while Clint Eastwood plays it fast and loose with the story of "the deadliest sniper in American history" and because the film pulled down $105 million in four-days its waved off as "artistic license."

Given a choice between accuracy and a big box office, Hollywood will always embrace the latter over the former. Good sign for Eastwood: two of his last three flicks to make over $100 million (Million Dollar Baby and Unforgiven) went on to win Oscars for Best Film.

Agree. He's James Frey with a gun fixation.

At least Kyle didn't get the public interrogation by a pissed-off Oprah.

Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of Oprah Hulking Out. :rant:
 

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The psycopathy checklist (as it stands) is kind of interesting. Each aspect is assigned an applicability score from 0-2, with a possible maximum of 40. Current (I think) US guidelines assign the diagnosis at a 30-score. (I read that the UK suggests diagnosis at 25.)

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

glib and superficial charm
grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
need for stimulation
pathological lying
cunning and manipulativeness
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
callousness and lack of empathy
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral controls
sexual promiscuity
early behavior problems
lack of realistic long-term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
failure to accept responsibility for own actions
many short-term marital relationships
juvenile delinquency
revocation of conditional release
criminal versatility
 

Opty

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While in the service, Chris Kyle did his job as a sniper. This makes him no more a murderer than any typical service member serving during times of combat operations. If you think of all service members as murderers, so be it.
I don't. Never said that I did. You're inventing that argument all in your head.

In fact, what I actually said was:
As pointed out in one of the articles, it's one thing to kill people as a soldier because you're doing your job. But, it's entirely different to relish in the killing, miss it, and crave more.

...

I'm certainly not discounting the sacrifices our military members make, the bravery that many of them display, and the heroism that some of them have exhibited. I am grateful for that. Someone's got to do that job and it's not one that I'd ever want to do.
How you went from reading that to thinking I said anywhere in my post that "all service members [are] murderers" is beyond my comprehension.

My argument about him being a self-confessed murderer was in relation to his bullshit claims after his service:
...he claims that one night these two guys tried to car jack him so he shot them dead in the street. When the cops showed up, he gave them a card with a phone number on it. They called it and supposedly someone at the Pentagon told them of all his amazing badassery and "patriotic" accomplishments, so the cops shook his hand and told him he was free to go.

...

He also claims that after Hurricane Katrina (see above) that he and a sniper buddy went down there and lay down on a rooftop and shot a bunch of looters dead. So, he's basically admitted to being a mass murderer.

What lead me to suggest he might have been a psychopath was that, in addition to lying and claiming that he had murdered a bunch of people after Hurricane Katrina, and killed those fictitious car jackers in Texas, were his claims that he "loved" killing, thought killing was "fun" and wishes he had gotten to kill more people. He didn't say that he loved the excitement or the rush of combat. He didn't say that he loved fighting for or defending his country. He said that he loved killing. It was fun. He missed killing people.

That sounds like something Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy would say.

I'll respect his service, but I'll gladly call him a self-serving asshole for his actions once he left the service.
That I can agree with.
 
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Opty

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But I will take issue with some of the comments about snipers.

...Cowardly? I suppose that's why he was awarded the Bronze Star for helping recover the wounded under heavy enemy fire. He wasn't shooting then, but it's hardly something a coward would do.
Which comments were those? I reviewed every post in the thread up to the point of you posting that and no one in the entire thread had said anything disparaging about snipers in general.

So, either you are (like Prozyan) inventing posts by other people in your own head or you mistakenly believe that Michael Moore posted somewhere in this thread and only you can see his posts.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I'm not sure what to make of this guy. Other than he seemed to be full of shit. But whatever... To me, real heroes don't brag, don't make up stories, they just do their job and no one knows about it unless someone else brings it to our attention. Take "the greatest generation," for instance, they out-heroed this bozo 1000 times over and then returned home and rarely spoke of their deeds. They didn't want, or need, all the attention.

This guy is a new breed: the military jackwad who thinks its all about macho posturing.
 

Zoombie

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I actually think snipers are the least cowardly people out there.

Humans are psychologically damaged just by SEEING violence, let alone committing it. At least a lot of soldiers are removed from the violence they must commit in the line of duty - things either happen too quickly, or they are fighting through TV screens from a distance (like drones), or are using artillery or are in a tank.

That's distance, and even that distance often isn't enough to not leave scars on people.

Snipers have the least distance, at least from what I understand: They can see the faces of the people they have to kill. And sniping, from everything I've read, is a very...calculating, slower, long term thing involving scouting and prepping and setting up. Plenty of time to think about what it is you're doing, and to who you are doing it to.

It's the psychological equivalent of putting your hand on a hot stove-top.
 

cornflake

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That is just about as perfect a summation as I've read anywhere. Kudos. :Thumbs:

I'll add that it's funny to me how Ava DuVernay's superb Selma gets dinged for not portraying President Lyndon Johnson as a "White savior" of the civil rights movement and it probably cost the film several Oscar nods while Clint Eastwood plays it fast and loose with the story of "the deadliest sniper in American history" and because the film pulled down $105 million in four-days its waved off as "artistic license."

Given a choice between accuracy and a big box office, Hollywood will always embrace the latter over the former. Good sign for Eastwood: two of his last three flicks to make over $100 million (Million Dollar Baby and Unforgiven) went on to win Oscars for Best Film.

At least Kyle didn't get the public interrogation by a pissed-off Oprah.

Nobody wants to be on the receiving end of Oprah Hulking Out. :rant:

There's no way this movie wins best picture. No way in hell.

As to the nominations and the box office - the nominations were out before it opened, and made weeks ago.

The psycopathy checklist (as it stands) is kind of interesting. Each aspect is assigned an applicability score from 0-2, with a possible maximum of 40. Current (I think) US guidelines assign the diagnosis at a 30-score. (I read that the UK suggests diagnosis at 25.)

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

glib and superficial charm
grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
need for stimulation
pathological lying
cunning and manipulativeness
lack of remorse or guilt
shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
callousness and lack of empathy
parasitic lifestyle
poor behavioral controls
sexual promiscuity
early behavior problems
lack of realistic long-term goals
impulsivity
irresponsibility
failure to accept responsibility for own actions
many short-term marital relationships
juvenile delinquency
revocation of conditional release
criminal versatility

Hmm.

I had an ex-girlfriend who (imo) scores a 36.

The PCL-R is not a checklist meant to work like that. Even professional psychologists, who have taken entire classes in administering many other, seemingly more complex measures, and spent careers doing so, are not allowed to use it without very specific training.

Hare used to only allow it to be used by those he'd personally trained, though I believe that's now been relaxed.

The biographic information alone that you need to properly code a PCL-R is extensive, then you need to know how to use it - each measure is specific in its meaning.

It's not like a checklist from a DSM-type diagnosis (some of which are also complex, but some of which aren't so much), where someone can say, 'yes, I do experience anxiety' or 'yes, he does act like that.'

It's designed to be used only be people very specifically trained in its use, simple as it seems to tick the boxes.
 
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CrastersBabies

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My father was trained as a sniper in Vietnam. He scored the highest marks you could score on the testing. He was so good in fact that they rarely sent him out into the field. From what he says about that experience, I can surmise that he was only used for very specific targets. He spent most of his time training other snipers. (Now, at 70, he still has a sharp-shooter ranking.)

And he was a very quiet, thoughtful, steady man. In his military experience as a trainer, he said that "the slower the heart, the steadier the aim." That it was the quiet ones who had the patience.

I know he was traumatized from this. He doesn't speak about it often, but when he does, I sense that there is a deep horror inside him from being a sniper--holding someone's life in your hands as you watch them from afar. Looking through the scope and knowing that you could remove that person from the face of the Earth with a single shot. No more heartbeat. No more breathing. Just gone. Erased.

He also said that the loud, bossy, megalomaniacs were usually the biggest liars and were also the most afraid. He told me about men he met during his service, who were brash and obnoxious, usually didn't make it into sniper training because they were considered unpredictable and "fidgety."

I can understand why someone like Michael Moore (for example) was raised to believe that snipers were "cowards." (And having read into this, it seems that Moore's uncle was killed by a sniper.) If we are to believe that acts of violence during wartime has the potential to BE honorable, then we might buy into the fact that shooting someone from a distance or in the back is "lower" than if you give them a fighting chance--if you look them in the eye.

Me? I don't see honor in killing no matter how you do it. But I can understand Moore's perspective to some extent.

The only other experience I have with snipers or special units military personnel is a neighbor of ours. He and his family moved in to a house down the block. The man told my husband that he was one of the guys who took down Saddam and went into detail about the whole thing. But, those details kept changing over time. This man was very loud, aggressive, and in-your-face. I remember he and his family were at the community pool and his son (age 5) wouldn't jump in the deep end. He ordered his son to "get his f***ot ass in the water, or he would get a beating." The son wouldn't go, so the man and his wife grabbed the boy and threw him in screaming. Every word out of their mouths was F-this and F-pussy that.

When they went on a bit of a bender one day about Muslims and how they all need to die, I politely excused myself and left the pool with my daughter. My impression was that this man really believed the horrible things he was spouting, and that his wife held similar views. (She did make a comment once about "Being a quiet person before she met her husband, but that he *cured* her of that.")

They ended up getting evicted and last I heard, were trying to get some of our neighbors involved in a Ponzi scheme. I don't believe this man had anything to do with taking down Saddam. It was the first time I'd ever had a run in with someone that angry and prejudiced.

As a teacher, I often get veterans in my class. To this day, they are my best students. They're respectful and kind and generous. The only complaint I have is that they call me Ma'am, even though I tell them they don't have to. (ha!) I can't begin to understand what happens during a war or in battle. Some of my students have written about their experiences, but never have I gotten the impression that they "got off" on death. They all seem to have been broken by it and are still in the process of putting themselves back together. I don't know, maybe men like Kyle get so broken that they have to act in a certain way--because it's the only method they have of coping?
 

c.e.lawson

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I have several problems with the OP.

I can't wait to see American Sniper. I am fascinated by the idea of exploring the emotional toll on a sniper, which must have complexity and components which are not part of the experience of soldiers who kill in other ways. Yes, snipers are far away physically from their targets, but the scope brings them in visually and therefore psychologically close as they pull the trigger. Also, they can't rely on the rationale that "he was going to kill me, so I had to kill him first" like in other battlefield scenarios, to ease the guilt of killing. I am also interested in how Eastwood examines what sort of person it takes to perform that particular duty and perform it well.

Unlike the OP, I happen to think any person who signs up voluntarily for the American military (I'm only going to speak for my military, since I'm American) for idealistic reasons and is willing to risk their lives for American ideals, IS a hero. I do think that some who join do so for practical reasons or no better choice, and for those, I'd assign heroism based on their actions once they are soldiers.

I also think some who are left of center politically are angry about this film and are scapegoating Kyle in order to counteract the pro-military/pro-fighting terrorism response the film has received thus far.

It appears Kyle may have lied/embellished the truth about some stuff after his service. There can be a multitude of possible reasons for that, (according to D Magazine, he survived three gunshot wounds, two helicopter crashes, and six IED attacks during his service.) Maybe he was a jerk. That doesn't take away his heroism in the military. And that doesn't make him a psychopath. He did, however, care enough about his marriage and being a father, to leave the SEALs. And after his discharge, he worked hard to help soldiers suffering from PTSD. Those aren't signs of a psychopath. I also think Opty's charges of racism are misguided.

I'm going to agree with David French in his National Review article from Jan 16: Responding to the American Sniper Backlash: Angry, Remorseless Warriors Are Still Heroes
http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...y-remorseless-warriors-are-still-heroes-david

I’m sorry, but I’m beyond sick of this notion that American soldiers who killed our enemies downrange “dehumanized” brown people. Here’s what they did: Risked their lives — and often gave their lives — for the “brown people” who suffered most at the hands of jihadists. Who would suffer most if al-Qaeda had overrun Iraq? Who would suffer most if the Taliban re-took Afghanistan? Men and women like Chris Kyle did more in any one deployment to save and protect “brown people” than Garber, West, or their friends will do in their entire “social justice”-obsessed lives, combined.

And:
When you lay down your life for your country, when you lay down your life for your brothers next to you, when you routinely take greater risks in a day than the average American will ever endure, and when you fight an enemy more evil than Ms. Garber likely comprehends not through jihadist tactics of indiscriminate killing, but by taking extraordinary risks to kill the enemy and only the enemy, then yes — emphatically yes — you are a hero.

And:
What is remarkable about Kyle — and the hundreds of thousands of other Americans who faced hostile fire day after day — is not their rage, but their discipline. Kyle responded to atrocities with anger, but his actions reflected professionalism and precision. That is something new in the sweep of history, where — traditionally — wartime atrocities beget reprisals, which beget even greater atrocities. The American military has broken that cycle. In our wars, the enemy’s atrocities are typically answered with the most precise weapons of warfare in human history — and no weapon was more precise than Chris Kyle’s rifle.

Yes, Chris Kyle was angry at our enemy. So are many — and likely most — of the vets who saw our enemies up close. But Kyle’s anger manifested itself in courage and honor on the battlefield, and for that he is — without doubt — a hero.
 

kuwisdelu

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I'll just say I think many of us have radically different ideas of what a "hero" is and I agree that it probably deserves it's own topic. I don't think being a soldier or a "warrior" makes one a hero. Different strokes.

If simply risking one's life made one a hero, then a lot of other professions would make one a hero, too.

There is no job description for "hero". It's an entirely personal evaluation.
 
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MacAllister

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I saw the movie last weekend - I found it curiously flat, actually. The opportunities to really explore the profound emotional and psychological implications of the job Kyle did during his service were mostly just glossed over or glibly hand-waved off with jingoistic talking-points regurgitated by the characters.
 
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badwolf.usmc

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I'll just say I think many of us have radically different ideas of what a "hero" is and I agree that it probably deserves it's own topic. I don't think being a soldier or a "warrior" makes one a hero. Different strokes.

Agreed, this has been a pet peeve of mine for some time. However, I imagine that our definitions of hero are different.
 

kuwisdelu

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I saw the movie last weekend - I found it curiously flat, actually. The opportunities to really explore the profound emotional and psychological implications of the job Kyle did during his service were mostly just glossed over or glibly hand-waved off with jingoistic talking-points regurgitated by the characters.

Color me unsurprised. The trailer struck me as propaganda.
 

CrastersBabies

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I don't think enlisting puts you on any pedestal. It's the actions you take during your service.
 

kuwisdelu

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I'll also add that I think snipers are hot. ;)

Sinon.png
 

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Of course, I only find it interesting, not a tool I'm qualified to use to any real end.

I didn't mean you were using it like that - was just saying as people often think checklists are all kind of 'yep/nope' measures they can employ like that, to Internet diagnose. Not that it dissuades people determined, but it seems simple but isn't...

I have several problems with the OP.

I can't wait to see American Sniper. I am fascinated by the idea of exploring the emotional toll on a sniper, which must have complexity and components which are not part of the experience of soldiers who kill in other ways. Yes, snipers are far away physically from their targets, but the scope brings them in visually and therefore psychologically close as they pull the trigger. Also, they can't rely on the rationale that "he was going to kill me, so I had to kill him first" like in other battlefield scenarios, to ease the guilt of killing. I am also interested in how Eastwood examines what sort of person it takes to perform that particular duty and perform it well.

Unlike the OP, I happen to think any person who signs up voluntarily for the American military (I'm only going to speak for my military, since I'm American) for idealistic reasons and is willing to risk their lives for American ideals, IS a hero. I do think that some who join do so for practical reasons or no better choice, and for those, I'd assign heroism based on their actions once they are soldiers.

This obviously depends on one's definition of hero, but it also depends on other things, like defining things as altruistic that others might define as self-aggrandizing.

I also think some who are left of center politically are angry about this film and are scapegoating Kyle in order to counteract the pro-military/pro-fighting terrorism response the film has received thus far.

Terrorism? He was in Iraq following 9-11.

It appears Kyle may have lied/embellished the truth about some stuff after his service. There can be a multitude of possible reasons for that, (according to D Magazine, he survived three gunshot wounds, two helicopter crashes, and six IED attacks during his service.) Which may be bullshit as well. Maybe he was a jerk. That doesn't take away his heroism in the military. You suggested your judging of his heroism was based on his enlistment, not actions. And that doesn't make him a psychopath. He did, however, care enough about his marriage and being a father, to leave the SEALs. Unless he was lying about that too. And after his discharge, he worked hard to help soldiers suffering from PTSD. Which did several things for his mythology, and allowed him to pursue his... hobbies. Those aren't signs of a psychopath. I also think Opty's charges of racism are misguided.

I'm going to agree with David French in his National Review article from Jan 16: Responding to the American Sniper Backlash: Angry, Remorseless Warriors Are Still Heroes
http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...y-remorseless-warriors-are-still-heroes-david



And:


And:

As to CratersBabies experiences, there was an NPR thing a little while ago, that I'll try to figure out when I've got more time. It was a serial piece (not a Serial piece) with a bunch of tapes from a guy enlisted after 9-11, who became, let's say, disillusioned with his fellow soldiers' motives.
 

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I don't think enlisting puts you on any pedestal. It's the actions you take during your service.


I served in the military, and this "hero" bullshit pedastalizing anyone who enlists bugs the hell out of me. No, most guys who enlist are not heroes - they wanted the GI bill, they needed a job, they were bored, they thought driving tanks would be fun, they thought joining the Army would make them badasses, whatever. Everyone would cite "patriotism" but it was more often than not fairly low on the list of reasons why people joined.

Those who serve do deserve some measure of respect for serving honorably and doing a job that is (in theory) risky, since even those who never see action know when they join up that they could be sent into combat.

And to hell with those who decide soldiers are killers or not honorable because they don't happen to agree with U.S. policy.

But yeah, "hero" is an overused word. I hate the fawning over soldiers every time they board a plane or attend a game.