Should Michel Houellebecq Be Afraid?

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Amadan

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But the only effective way to prevent people from reacting this way is to stop being an antagonizing jackass.

So, the "consequentialist" solution to violent fanatics killing people for saying things they don't like is to cower and shut up. No thanks.

I think the most effective way to prevent people from reacting this way is to kill or imprison those who react this way. Every. Single. Time.

It's really surprising how so many of you insist to defend the discourse of people who, if they showed up in this forum, would get banned in a matter of days on account of grossly insensitive hate speech.

Absolutely I defend them.

There are things I'd certainly kick people out of my house for saying, but I would not want them to be legally prohibited from saying them in public, let alone targeted with violence.

It's also kinda sad to see people who still believe the fable that terrorists hate us because we're not muslims. No, terrorists hate us because our countries have restrictive laws specifically targetting muslims, they hate us because mosques in the western world are getting vandalised on a daily basis, they hate us because our countries bomb their countries, they hate us because the civilian arab victims of western military actions are orders of magnitude more numerous than the western civilian victims of islamic terrorism, they hate us because we support local arab dictators in the name of stability and in the name of "fighting terrorism".

There are a few tiny grains of truth in there, and so much horrible apologia. Yes, there is a certain amount of action/reaction in the jihadist response to the West, and contrary to what you said, no one here is claiming the West has always acted with pristine and benevolent motives.

But jihadists want a jihadist state that will eventually spread and conquer all non-Muslim states (and indeed, all Muslim states that do not follow their particular strain of Islam). They hate us because we oppose that, and they will continue fighting us until either they win or they are eliminated. Grievances about Muslims being persecuted, while they may sometimes be legitimate, are merely PR for them. They didn't spring up to defend oppressed Muslims whose mosques in the West occasionally get vandalized.
 

RikWriter

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My argument isn't moral at all, it's consequentialist.

If you systematically and deliberatedly antagonize a group of people, the question is not whether their response is appropriate or not [not one here is saying that it is], it's about understanding that there will be a response and that it will be unpleasant. You can ponder at length about how you should have the right to say gross things about anyone and how these people's response is highly immoral and should be repressed with force. And that's true.

But the only effective way to prevent people from reacting this way is to stop being an antagonizing jackass.

No, that's quite wrong. The only effective way to prevent people from reacting this way is to make sure they don't have the opportunity to do so.
 

jjdebenedictis

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I'm torn on this issue (and it's a prickly one, so no surprise there.)

On one hand, terrorists killed people. This is a tragedy. And pointing out that some of the people killed were asshats, and doing so immediately after their deaths, does imply (but only imply; it's clear at this point no one here believes this) that the person pointing out the asshattery of the victims is condoning the violence against them.

But at the same time, to say nothing about how provocative the victims were being before they were attacked leaves open the possibility that those who believed their message will use their deaths as justification for more vicious asshattery and possibly violence too.

I think the reason why people are stating that some of the victims were engaged in problematic activities is that they're making an attempt to strangle that potential backlash before it begins. And I have a lot of sympathy for anyone working to make their world a better place with the strength of their voice -- that sort of person makes the best kind of writer, don't they?

At the same time, I can totally understand how it looks like victim-blaming to talk about the problematic actions of some of the victims immediately following their tragic deaths. The timing can't help but look bad.

Everyone here is being a good-hearted, brave person trying to argue for a better world, but we're approaching the problem from different directions.
 
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RikWriter

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jj the problem with the approach of examining the terrorists' motivations to prevent such things in the future is that it's giving the murderers what they want. They did this to cow other journalists into not doing anything provocative towards radical Islamists in the future. If our message is, "let's not be provocative," then we're rewarding murder and making sure that this is the same tactic people inclined to violence use whenever they have an imagined "grievance" in the future. If you subsidize something, you get more of it.
 

Once!

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It's a catch 22 situation.

We have two cultures with different viewpoints. On one side we have a western world where freedom of speech is important and we cherish the ability to express ourselves, whether this is in the way that we dress or the way that we satirise each other.

On the other side we have a culture where religion is more important and where there are prohibitions on the way that people dress, on what they say and do. Specifically, there is a prohibition on images of the prophet Muhammad.

Neither side really understands the other. Both see monsters on the other side, whether those monsters are terrorists on one side or soldiers on the other.

This incident seems to have been sparked by Charlie Hebdo publishing cartoons of the prophet Muhammad. We in the west might think that these are relatively harmless. It's within free speech. No big deal. Not worth killing someone for.

But it is very hard for us to understand exactly how offensive these cartoons are to someone with a different approach to religion than we have. We might think that it's no big deal, but how can we know this for sure? How can we know how followers of Islam view the cartoons of Muhammad?

So we quote freedom of speech. Except that we don't truly have freedom of speech, do we? We apply limitations to ourselves to prevent racist or sexist material from being published, or harmful material such as child pornography, or libel and slander. So it's okay to publish a cartoon of Muhammad, but it's not okay for a white person to use the n word?

At some point, some how, we are going to have to find a way of reconciling these two cultures. Unless we want to have the mother and father of all wars.

But it's very hard to have that discussion right now. As RikWriter says it would look as if the murderers had achieved what they wanted. We should not allow them to win through violence. That will only provoke more violence.

But nor does that mean that we should look only for revenge or bigotry. Yes, the terrorists are arseholes and should be brought to justice. But at some point we are going to have to see the bigger picture. The underlying problem is not the violence. It's the conflict between the two cultures.
 

CassandraW

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I have a better idea. How about the people who don't like the cartoons or speech either publish their own opinions in response, or if they don't care to take the trouble, simply ignore the offending speech?

The cartoonists aren't trying to force their views on anyone; anyone is free to reject them. Those trying to suppress the cartoonists are trying to force their views on others.
 
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kuwisdelu

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I havea better idea. How about the people who don't like the cartoons or speech either publish their own opinions in response, or if they don't care to take the trouble, simply ignore the offending speech?

Can we just post about it on an online message board instead?
 

RikWriter

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Can we just post about it on an online message board instead?

You can post about it, publish scathing rebuttals in print or online, picket outside the magazine headquarters, make a documentary...just about anything except physically attack the people who pissed you off.
 

TheNighSwan

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Beachgirl, Adaman >

Firstly, I don't know how you (or anyone else here) would know "from the mouth of the terrorists" what their intents and motives are, since every time a "terrorist" organisation releases a speech, western media either heavily censor it or ignore it entirely.

The current leader of ISIS, when he assumed his leadership position, made a public speech where he explained his ideology, his intents, his religious position and his logic of action quite clearly. What was shown of that speech in western media? A truncated sentence of two words.


Secondly, you're making an unpleasant amalgam between different terrorist groups which are not all djihadists and don't all want the same things. The Hezbollah, the Hamas, Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram and the Caucasus Emirate are all different groups with different objectives, different targets, different means of action, and different supports. You can't all treat them as the same indistinct entity, this is absurd even from a strategic and militaristic standpoint.


Thirdly, again, you don't seem to understand why these groups exist, what they are an answer to. ISIS exists because the Americans invaded Iraq, because in the resulting chaos, sunni in Iraq became the target of persecution by the shia majority.

The acts commited by ISIS are barbaric, monstruous, unexcusable. But they are neither blind nor gratuitous, they're an answer to a situation which the west has created. A horrible, highly immoral answer, but an answer, not a random and irrational outburst.

What I am trying to say is that reckless acts have consequences. When you spill racist hate for years, when you continuously insult an identified community, their religion and their culture, this has consequences. When you recklessly and hastily invade a foreign country without a clear objective nor a sound battle plan, this has consequences.

You can blame the people involved in these answers for their immorality, you can pursue them ruthlessly, but no amount of ruthless force will prevent acts from having consequence, no amount of police force deployment will prevent terrorists to get their way if they're desperate.

Russia has the ruthless and most efficient anti-terrorist force in the world, they don't make details, they shoot to kill, they arrest and they torture, they do everything american Republicans have wet dreams about. You know which country is still plagued by terrorism? Yep, Russia. There are 600 djihadists hidden in the mountains of the Russian Caucasus, who have been there since the second Chechnya war, and that Russian forces, for all their demonstrations, are unable to extirpate, and unable to prevent from regularly attacking the population.

Barely a month ago, a group of armed militants entered Grozny and occupied the "press house" building. They killed 15 people (mostly policemen). Where were all the people who are now crying over CH when this happened?

And of course, in Russia, particularly in Grozny, this is not notably exceptional: 6 people died in a suicide bombing, just two months before that, also in Grozny. The Russians traded freedom for security, and predictingly, they got neither.
 

kuwisdelu

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...just about anything except physically attack the people who pissed you off.

Are we still just talking about publishing cartoons, or can I not physically attack anyone else who pisses me off either?

What if they're manspreading?
 

Amadan

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What I am trying to say is that reckless acts have consequences.

So do non-reckless acts.

No one is questioning that.

If you want to argue that invading Iraq was a bad idea and contributed to instability in the Middle East - sure, we can have that discussion.

But you conflated "reckless acts" like invading Iraq with reckless acts like publishing inflammatory cartoons, and implied that the latter was being "antagonistic jackasses" and something we should stop doing.
 

Aggy B.

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The cartoons published by Charlie Hebdo have been made available via other magazines online now. (The Daily Banter ran them under the headline They Can't Kill Us All.)

So, I went and read them all to see what the fuss was about. (And because some folks I respect on Twitter had mentioned that the cartoons that caused the fuss were pretty heinous.)

What I saw was a handful of satirical cartoons and a handful of satirical and in very poor taste cartoons. The latter were published in clear response to attacks and threats of violence. Those published after attack on the Benghazi embassy, for instance, were clearly lacking in sensitivity and in extremely poor taste. They were also a kind of upping the ante response.

Was that reckless? Maybe. But I've seen folks say that the journalists and aid workers in Iraq who were beheaded were also reckless just by virtue of being there. Which, I think, is the whole point of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. If you think killing someone is an appropriate response to someone displaying an opinion that is different/contrary/mocking in an attempt to show the flaws in something, then perhaps you deserve to be mocked all the harder.

Satire, by it's very nature, is difficult to do without causing offense to whomever it is leveled at, but that doesn't make it unnecessary. Nor, even when it is in poor taste, is it an "offense" worthy of death.
 

Beachgirl

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Beachgirl, Adaman >

Firstly, I don't know how you (or anyone else here) would know "from the mouth of the terrorists" what their intents and motives are, since every time a "terrorist" organisation releases a speech, western media either heavily censor it or ignore it entirely.

The current leader of ISIS, when he assumed his leadership position, made a public speech where he explained his ideology, his intents, his religious position and his logic of action quite clearly. What was shown of that speech in western media? A truncated sentence of two words.

You're assuming I get all my information from western media. I don't. For example, I personally know people who have gone underground and fled certain areas of the Middle East because they are a target for terrorists due to their religion. And they have lost friends who were murdered for the sole reason that they would not convert to ISIS's brand of Islam. So I don't need western media to fill me in.

Also, you (general "you") don't have to look very hard outside of western media to get the speeches, propaganda and religious edict material ISIS and other jihadist groups put out, in all of its oppressive glory.

Secondly, you're making an unpleasant amalgam between different terrorist groups which are not all djihadists and don't all want the same things. The Hezbollah, the Hamas, Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram and the Caucasus Emirate are all different groups with different objectives, different targets, different means of action, and different supports. You can't all treat them as the same indistinct entity, this is absurd even from a strategic and militaristic standpoint.

I mentioned two specific groups who are publicly calling for the establishment of a Caliphate and forced conversion and/or extermination of anyone who doesn't share their religious views. I'm perfectly aware there are different types of terrorists: religious, political, economic, social, environmental, etc. I'm not the one trying to mix those different terrorist groups together.

Thirdly, again, you don't seem to understand why these groups exist, what they are an answer to. ISIS exists because the Americans invaded Iraq, because in the resulting chaos, sunni in Iraq became the target of persecution by the shia majority.

Please refrain from assuming what I do and do not understand. As I said, I personally know people who have had to deal all too closely with religious terrorists and I am perfectly aware of why they exist. If anyone thinks the Sunni/Shia problem exists because 'Merica, then they might want to study Ancient Near and Mideast History (which was my college minor, BTW, so I do understand it). Did our invasion of Iraq contribute to the current upheaval? Yep. But it is only a continuation of a very long and bloody battle that began long before America or any other western nation became involved in Middle Eastern affairs. And that doesn't even address the slaughter of Christians and other minority religious people.

Blaming the West for religious terrorism will never result in anything but further appeasement of said religious terrorists and a continued erosion of civil rights.
 

TheNighSwan

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The "continued erosion of civil rights" has been the doing of people who precisely refuse any form of appeasement and de-escalation. Hawks voted the patriot act, not doves.

You don't win against terrorists by being stronger than them —we are already stronger than them, which is why they resort to terrorism, in lieu of conventional warfare
 

Beachgirl

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The "continued erosion of civil rights" has been the doing of people who precisely refuse any form of appeasement and de-escalation. Hawks voted the patriot act, not doves.

You don't win against terrorists by being stronger than them —we are already stronger than them, which is why they resort to terrorism, in lieu of conventional warfare

If your answer to terrorists is appeasement, then we will have to agree to disagree.
 

Amadan

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The "continued erosion of civil rights" has been the doing of people who precisely refuse any form of appeasement and de-escalation. Hawks voted the patriot act, not doves.

Those are three very different things that you have lumped into a single category:

1. Appeasement.
2. De-escalation.
3. The Patriot Act.

It is a gross logical fallacy to assume that everyone is either in favor of or opposed to all three.

I'm frankly a bit surprised and more than a bit appalled that you mention appeasement in particular as if it were a positive thing.

You don't win against terrorists by being stronger than them —we are already stronger than them, which is why they resort to terrorism, in lieu of conventional warfare

Depends what you mean by "being stronger." My opinion is that you win against terrorists in two ways:

1. Killing them.
2. Removing their support.

(2) can involve a variety of short and long-term strategies, including diplomatic and social ones.

What it should not include, however, is any form of appeasement.
 

Kylabelle

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Folks, this is becoming much more of a political debate about what the correct response to terrorism is, than a discussion of the dangers of writing about volatile subjects.

I don't think the political debate as it's shaping up really belongs in Roundtable. The original question was, is Michel Houellebecq in danger. We've gone pretty far afield from related questions. If the whole "how we should respond to terrorism" debate continues I'll have to lock this until I figure out how to split it off and where to send it, which won't be a rapid process.

You might be better off starting a thread separately in the appropriate forum, for this tributary of the discussion.
 

Beachgirl

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Good point, Kylabelle.

Getting back to the original topic, I think all writers should be afraid. Acting on that fear by withdrawing and censoring, however, would be handing a major victory to the very people who carried out the Paris attack.

As writers, we have the opportunity to use our talents and our platforms to call out those who would seek to silence us. Opportunity is never without risk, though, and we must each decide if we are willing to accept those risks.

This all makes me think of the brave men who wrote and then signed their names to the Declaration of Independence, knowing full well that doing so could carry a death sentence. They risked their own lives to stand for something larger than themselves, as have others down through the course of history. It is my hope that writers will continue to stand against the worst of society and drag those elements out into the light so that they are exposed for what they truly are.
 
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