Nepal buses for women-only

kuwisdelu · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
That might be a misunderstanding on my part. The issue is, what happens if it turns out many young boys are really struggling when they are in an environment where they do not have positive male role models to play the role of father figures or young girls are really struggling because they do not have female role models to play the role of mother figures? What happens if they have this natural born need to find such figures of a specific gender to connect to and learn from? Sometimes, when I hear answers to this question, I get the idea that they think young boys and girls can be socially conditioned out of this inclination, which I do admit could be me misunderstanding it.

I don't think such a "natural born need" actually exists. Rather than being "socially conditioned out of [that] inclination," I think culture conditions children into it.

And frankly, I think that's fine. I think it's fine for a culture to have gender roles, as long as people are free to step out of them when and if they want or need to.

But it's worth acknowledging that it's a societal construct.

frimble3 · Jan 5, 2015

CassandraW said:
It would be impossible to have enough security personnel to put one or two on every bus, unless there are damn few buses.

And as far as empowering bus drivers to stop the bus and throw people off -- you really think that's going to help much?

You've got a misogynistic country; likely many of the bus drivers are not exactly going to be feminist heroes. They'd probably have to take the woman's word that she'd been groped, unless there were witnesses, and she may not even know who groped her. (In a crowded vehicle, it is easy to grope below eye level where no one can see it -- I know, I've had it happen to me.) Are they going to do that? Even assuming they believe her and are sympathetic, are they likely to take on the risk of throwing the guy off? Will the rest of the bus be sympathetic to the woman, or angry at the delay?

Call me a pessimist (I am), but I'm betting few drivers would be throwing gropers off the bus. You'd need a big societal attitude change first, IMO.

I'm with Kuwi and others -- the separate bus is not the solution, but it's a stopgap I'd be damn grateful for if I were a woman living there.

Yeah, it's laying a lot on the bus-drivers, that they should drive a bus over what I suspect are rough and winding roads, while at the same time policing the passengers.
Bus-drivers here get assaulted, sometimes to the point of permanent disability, for just driving the bus.
I can't see that expecting them to stop vile behavior, possibly from more than one passenger at a time, against the will of the other passengers, is going to be a practical solution.
Especially since there's a chance that a driver might be thinking "Damn, if it weren't for having to keep to the schedule, I could be doing that, too!"
Separate buses might not be ideal, but they're a start.
And, I don't know what the statistics are, or even if they're kept, but it would be interesting to know what the separate buses do for ridership. It might be that there are women who don't take the bus because of fear of groping/strange men who would gladly take a separate bus. This might increase demand.

emax100 · Jan 5, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
I don't think such a "natural born need" actually exists. Rather than being "socially conditioned out of [that] inclination," I think culture conditions children into it.

And frankly, I think that's fine. I think it's fine for a culture to have gender roles, as long as people are free to step out of them when and if they want or need to.

But it's worth acknowledging that it's a societal construct.

I get why someone might be inclined to feel that way, so to speak, though it can be the start of some very intense and heated psychology and sociology debates, probably even among respected professionals in the field. But if one thinks this way they would need to acknowledge that it is indeed a global trend that is present in all 196 nations on earth to varying degrees and virtually every culture. Not present equally in all nations and cultures of course but present nonetheless. At least, if there is a culture and/or country where boys and girls have zero inclination to learn about manhood and womanhood and only feel a need to learn about adulthood, I am not aware of it. So it is not something than can be blamed on factors like Westernization of American cultural influence.

kuwisdelu · Jan 5, 2015

Nepal certainly isn't unique in this move.

Women-only transit options exist in many countries around the world.

From the second link:

"Whenever I visit other cities I am appalled by the instant loss of independence I experience," Thekaekara says. "In Mumbai, I meet up with friends after work, and frequently get home at midnight or later, but in cities like Bangalore and Delhi, my plans are determined by whether or not I can get a ride back home after dark."

kuwisdelu · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
But if one thinks this way they would need to acknowledge that it is indeed a global trend that is present in all 196 nations on earth to varying degrees and virtually every culture. Not present equally in all nations and cultures of course but present nonetheless. At least, if there is a culture and/or country where boys and girls have zero inclination to learn about manhood and womanhood and only feel a need to learn about adulthood, I am not aware of it.

If "manhood" and "womanhood" were indeed universal, I'd expect ideas of masculinity and femininity to be more uniform across all cultures. That is obviously not the case. So I don't think the fact that most cultures have gender roles proves the universality of "manhood" and "womanhood" at all. I think it proves the opposite.

And incidentally, there are far more than 196 nations on earth.

There are over 500 nations in the US alone.

Maybe you meant "countries"?

emax100 · Jan 5, 2015

kuwisdelu said:
If "manhood" and "womanhood" were indeed universal, I'd expect ideas of masculinity and femininity to be more uniform across all cultures. That is obviously not the case.

It is not that the ideas of what constitutes manhood and womanhood are universal but that the existence of the concepts of manhood and womanhood seem to be universal. You are very much right that these concepts can vary drastically from one nation and/or culture to the next.

kuwisdelu said:
And incidentally, there are far more than 196 nations on earth.

There are over 500 nations in the US alone.

Hmmm, touche.

Albedo · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
In fact, the very last thing I and others who talk about this want is for anyone to get the idea that if a man who does the monstrous things Rice, Chris Benoit, Jason Kidd, Brett Myers and Mike Tyson did that having a lack of father figure growing up is somehow an acceptable excuse.

Is there any evidence that the lack of a 'father figure' had anything to do with the offenses of any of the above? If not, why would the idea even come up?

Fruitbat · Jan 5, 2015

I'd use the service and be glad that someone came up with another option at least. Maybe the other transportation providers will get more involved on what behavior is tolerated on their buses now that it affects their profits. It probably doesn't take all that many busy gropers to make the buses somewhere women don't want to be.

emax100 · Jan 5, 2015

Albedo said:
Is there any evidence that the lack of a 'father figure' had anything to do with the offenses of any of the above? If not, why would the idea even come up?

If you are talking about these specific cases, well, Rice's father was murdered by a criminal in a drive by shooting, Tyson's father ditched his family and Chris Benoit looked to father figures growing up and only found repugnant misogynists like Dynamite Kid. As for Kidd and Myers, I'm not sure right now to what kind of examples their fathers sent. I suspect it was not exactly a good one. Which of course, does not excuse any of their actions one bit. But if you are talking about evidence, that is what we have.

CassandraW · Jan 5, 2015

I suspect many of the gropers in Nepal learned their skills from their fathers.

Ari Meermans · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
It is not that the ideas of what constitutes manhood and womanhood are universal but that the existence of the concepts of manhood and womanhood seem to be universal. You are very much right that these concepts can vary drastically from one nation and/or culture to the next.

How are you defining and distinguishing "manhood" and "womanhood?" And why do you appear to shy away from the all-inclusive "gender?" Manhood and womanhood are all but archaic terms whose use is now almost completely relegated to religious use for hierarchical determinations.

emax100 said:
If you are talking about these specific cases, well, Rice's father was murdered by a criminal in a drive by shooting, Tyson's father ditched his family and Chris Benoit looked to father figures growing up and only found repugnant misogynists like Dynamite Kid. As for Kidd and Myers, I'm not sure right now to what kind of examples their fathers sent. I suspect it was not exactly a good one. Which of course, does not excuse any of their actions one bit. But if you are talking about evidence, that is what we have.

Those are examples meant to bolster your argument and do not constitute evidence by any definition of the word.

kuwisdelu · Jan 5, 2015

CassandraW said:
I suspect many of the gropers in Nepal learned their skills from their fathers.

emax100 · Jan 5, 2015

CassandraW said:
I suspect many of the gropers in Nepal learned their skills from their fathers.

Indeed which is why, in my opinion, making things better for women who want to ride the bus or feel comfortable doing anything outside the house for that matter will need to involve a lot of things, one of which will need to be Nepalese men, and women of course, not to set asshole-ish examples for their sons.

emax100 · Jan 5, 2015

Ari Meermans said:
Those are examples meant to bolster your argument and do not constitute evidence by any definition of the word.

Well quantifying evidence one way or the other with cases like this is extremely hard. I am not sure we can tell what would have happened with Tyson, Benoit, Rice, Kidd and Myers if all five of them had father figures of some kind, which would not necessarily have to be fathers in their house, who made it the top priority to set positive examples for them on how to conduct themselves. And nobody else really can tell for sure either.

emax100 · Jan 5, 2015

kuwisdelu said:

Well, tragically, I think she is not wrong here. In countries like Nepal, young boys place their fathers on an even higher pedestal than we do here in the US. If their fathers set an example that it is ok to be a piece of human garbage towards women, most likely they bought it hook, line and sinker.

kuwisdelu · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
Well, tragically, I think she is not wrong here.

Well, I wasn't disagreeing.

Albedo · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
If you are talking about these specific cases, well, Rice's father was murdered by a criminal in a drive by shooting, Tyson's father ditched his family and Chris Benoit looked to father figures growing up and only found repugnant misogynists like Dynamite Kid. As for Kidd and Myers, I'm not sure right now to what kind of examples their fathers sent. I suspect it was not exactly a good one. Which of course, does not excuse any of their actions one bit. But if you are talking about evidence, that is what we have.

emax100 said:
Well quantifying evidence one way or the other with cases like this is extremely hard. I am not sure we can tell what would have happened with Tyson, Benoit, Rice, Kidd and Myers if all five of them had father figures of some kind, which would not necessarily have to be fathers in their house, who made it the top priority to set positive examples for them on how to conduct themselves. And nobody else really can tell for sure either.

So, 'none' then.

Ari Meermans · Jan 5, 2015

emax100 said:
Well quantifying evidence one way or the other with cases like this is extremely hard. I am not sure we can tell what would have happened with Tyson, Benoit, Rice, Kidd and Myers if all five of them had father figures of some kind, which would not necessarily have to be fathers in their house, who made it the top priority to set positive examples for them on how to conduct themselves. And nobody else really can tell for sure either.

It's not hard, extremely or otherwise; it's impossible without all appropriate data sets in place and years-long studies. In the absence of such, it's nothing more than speculation.

Shadow Dragon · Jan 5, 2015

Hapax Legomenon said:
I do wonder if harassers will take this as a cue to step up harassment of women in the normal buses, even though there are so few of these buses. "If she didn't want to be groped, she should have been on a woman only bus!" etc.

This would be my main concern, but right now there aren't many other options aside from changing the culture which takes decades, possibly centuries.

regdog · Jan 6, 2015

I say, good for them. They are making on effort to keep women safe, which is a far cry from ignoring the problem, or saying it's special treatment.

It is truly sad that there needs to be women only buses or trains, but the fact is, the world is a very dangerous place for women. There is a worldwide rape culture that sees women as nothing more than a thing for men's amusement.

For those men who are upset and say they are being blamed when they have done nothing, read this by John Scalzi. Also if it angers you, then be the ones to step and put a stop to it. Speak out if you see a women being harassed. Teach your sons, nephews, grandsons, that women are to be respected, that women are not playthings to be groped, harassed, raped or abuse.

vsrenard · Jan 6, 2015

When I was on summer break in India one year, back in the olden days whenI was a teenager, we took an overnight train from south to north. I was sleeping on the middle bunk in a sleeper car when all of a sudden I felt a hand squeeze my boob. Woke up immediately and yelled, but it was too difficult to tell who in the crowd of people rushing to get on and off the train had done the deed. Later, my aunts and mom told me I should have fully covered myself in a blanket which I had, but the blanket moved during the night) so my T-shirt covered breast would not present a target to assholes. My male cousins were outraged and said I should have yelled louder, and right away, so they knew who to attack.

The event was one of many such things I had happen during my many summers in India (the guy who felt my ass up with his toes in a movie theater got his flesh bloodied by my sharpened fingernails, yeah i was a teenager). If there had been a women-only train car, or a women-only theater, we would have jumped on the option. Sometimes you need a safe place even while you protest.

Zoombie · Jan 6, 2015

You can put me on the "this is a band-aide" side of the thing.

I mean, it is a band-aide being put onto a slit throat, but still...

Nepal buses for women-only

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emax100

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