Dead Roma baby denied burial by French mayor

Sad. Will we ever learn to stop Othering everyone?

Glad the mayor of Wissou is offering a grave though.

How much hate do you need for a particular group to take it out on a dead baby? Ugh.

There's no tax on the dead, so that argument shouldn't be valid even on a technicality. It's too bad that no one with an extra grave plot could donate it for a grieving family. To lose a child is horrific. For it to be during the holidays, when so many people are happy, makes it worse, and then to be met with such lack of compassion after the fact, is unconscionable.

What if the child had been found, unnamed, and never claimed? Do they not bury the unclaimed dead in France? And if they do, then how is it worse to offer the same consideration to someone with a name?

Cyia said:

What if the child had been found, unnamed, and never claimed? Do they not bury the unclaimed dead in France? And if they do, then how is it worse to offer the same consideration to someone with a name?

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They often cremate John Does over here in the US, and cremation is pretty much the default norm in Europe for everyone these days, isn't it?

[Edit]Though a quick check finds that in rural France, burial is still more common. I guess the high school teachers who told us that "everyone" except rich people are cremated in Europe because there's no room for cemeteries were lying.

Regardless, it's a really horrible thing to do--denying the family's request because of their ethnicity. France seems to have a lot of institutionalized racism in place against Romany people and African immigrants, and religious intolerance against Muslims.

France and Italy, among other nations, have a history of discrimination towards Roma people, such as the deaths of two Roma children which was apparently ignored by passersby.

I was completely ignorant of this issue before moving from California to Oxford, England. I had no idea who the Romani people were. In Oxford, I began to hear about them, largely referred to as "gypsies", and most of the people I met in Oxford are unsympathetic towards them. It doesn't help that there is so little communication between the Oxfordians and the traveler groups.

I remember once jogging around a nearby park and seeing a ton of trash. It was an excessive amount of garbage, mounds of empty wrappers, used toilet paper, even human and animal waste. I asked a passerby if there had been a concert at that park or something, and she said, "No. It's those bloody gypsies." Apparently they sometimes come through, camp in the parks until the authorities tell them to leave, which they would do after leaving a mound of trash in the park.

It was a really strange experience. Most people I've met have complaints about them. I've listened a number of times about how having a horde of Roma travelers move into your neighborhood would make the property prices in the area drop dramatically, and how their "jobs" include stealing and selling stolen items. It seems to me that a lot of this stems from propaganda. Is it based on some truth? I have no idea. But the hatred towards them in palpable, and it's sad to see the extent to which it has come to.

Putputt said:

I remember once jogging around a nearby park and seeing a ton of trash. It was an excessive amount of garbage, mounds of empty wrappers, used toilet paper, even human and animal waste. I asked a passerby if there had been a concert at that park or something, and she said, "No. It's those bloody gypsies." Apparently they sometimes come through, camp in the parks until the authorities tell them to leave, which they would do after leaving a mound of trash in the park.

It was a really strange experience. Most people I've met have complaints about them. I've listened a number of times about how having a horde of Roma travelers move into your neighborhood would make the property prices in the area drop dramatically, and how their "jobs" include stealing and selling stolen items. It seems to me that a lot of this stems from propaganda. Is it based on some truth? I have no idea. But the hatred towards them in palpable, and it's sad to see the extent to which it has come to.

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I think it's kind of a chicken-and-egg problem - the traveler bands do cause problems, and seem to have an institutionalized culture that sanctifies preying on "outsiders," but it's one that's developed after centuries of prejudice. If a bunch of Roma do want to settle down and engage in legit business, where can they do it?

As for this French town, I wonder what their normal procedure is for dealing with dead itinerant/homeless? Is it a Roma-specific policy, or do they (legitimately) reserve their cemetery for legal residents? (In which case they should still have some provision for itinerants and the like.)

Diana Hignutt said:

Sad. Will we ever learn to stop Othering everyone?

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Sadly, I believe not.

Antiziganism is one of the last forms of prejudice still widely accepted by European societies. Why? Because gypsies are criminals. Or so we are told by certain rightwing media who base their convictions on questionable research.

For example, there was a much cited report written by a professor in criminology, from the University of Utrecht, in which she estimates that more than eighty percent of individuals who engage in mobile banditry, are Roma. There's no real proof in the study, there are no reliable statistics, just interviews with police units and court documents. But conclusions from that report made their way onto various rightwing websites and from there seeped into the mainstream media.

I'll be very honest. Are Roma overrepresented in certain forms of crime, say pickpocketing or human trafficking? It appears to be the case. But unless we take into account the amount of institutional racism they face every day, how hard it is for them to live their lives in dignity and how we as (Western) Europeans deny them a chance to build a secure existence, any form of negative judgement is inherently unjust.

Roxxsmom said:

They often cremate John Does over here in the US, and cremation is pretty much the default norm in Europe for everyone these days, isn't it?

[Edit]Though a quick check finds that in rural France, burial is still more common. I guess the high school teachers who told us that "everyone" except rich people are cremated in Europe because there's no room for cemeteries were lying.

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Yeah, that's definitely not true. Plenty of regular burials in Europe.

My admittedly cursory research into this topic also says Romani customs call for a burial anyway; cremation wouldn't be okay. Which makes this even more mean-spirited to me.

Roxxsmom said:

I guess the high school teachers who told us that "everyone" except rich people are cremated in Europe because there's no room for cemeteries were lying.

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It's a bit more complex than that. At least here. Burial is fine and pretty available. But you better be rich/important (or have rich heirs) if you want to stay buried until the Heavenly Trumpets sound. Some of the cemetaries, especially those in cities, are full so unless you died before the Great Wars or in them, chances are your remains will be dug up again within 10-100 years and either chucked into an ossuarium or cremated after all while the grave plot is re-used.

Even with that in mind, still no reason to deny this child a burial, I should think.

Priority has to be given to taxpayers? How many French babies pay tax?

What a heartless bastard.

Putputt said:

It was a really strange experience. Most people I've met have complaints about them. I've listened a number of times about how having a horde of Roma travelers move into your neighborhood would make the property prices in the area drop dramatically, and how their "jobs" include stealing and selling stolen items. It seems to me that a lot of this stems from propaganda. Is it based on some truth? I have no idea. But the hatred towards them in palpable, and it's sad to see the extent to which it has come to.

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I've run into this with British friends too. Americans tend to have romantic notions about Roma people (and the traveling people of Ireland, which are a distinct ethnic group but are also sometimes referred to as "gypsies" or "tinkers"), when we think of them at all. It's my understanding that there's a persistent issue with poverty, crime and a general disconnection from the civic life of the towns and countries in which they live/travel. It's different in some ways, perhaps, than what we see in the US with migrant and seasonal workers from Mexico, because the Romany aren't looking to settle down and become "regular" citizens. This means they're perpetual outsiders. I'm no expert, but I suspect there's a cycle of mistrust and alienation that's been going on for a long, long time.

I've often been taken aback at the hatred I've seen from otherwise mild-mannered folks from Europe and the UK (people who are sometimes critical of the US and our own long-standing issues with race and poverty). I think some of it comes from the idea that the Roma people don't want to become "honest" citizens of any one country and aren't actually trying to make a better life for themselves (by the standards of most Europeans, anyway). I think a people whose cultural identity is historically based on traveling and performing iterate labor have a really hard time in a world that values national citizenship, property ownership, and long-term employment.

Me, I'm just jealous.

Roxxsmom said:

I've run into this with British friends too. Americans tend to have romantic notions about Roma people (and the traveling people of Ireland, which are a distinct ethnic group but are also sometimes referred to as "gypsies" or "tinkers"), when we think of them at all. It's my understanding that there's a persistent issue with poverty, crime and a general disconnection from the civic life of the towns and countries in which they live/travel. It's different in some ways, perhaps, than what we see in the US with migrant and seasonal workers from Mexico, because the Romany aren't looking to settle down and become "regular" citizens. This means they're perpetual outsiders. I'm no expert, but I suspect there's a cycle of mistrust and alienation that's been going on for a long, long time.

I've often been taken aback at the hatred I've seen from otherwise mild-mannered folks from Europe and the UK (people who are sometimes critical of the US and our own long-standing issues with race and poverty). I think some of it comes from the idea that the Roma people don't want to become "honest" citizens of any one country and aren't actually trying to make a better life for themselves (by the standards of most Europeans, anyway). I think a people whose cultural identity is historically based on traveling and performing iterate labor have a really hard time in a world that values national citizenship, property ownership, and long-term employment.

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That has largely been my experience with my English friends. People who are largely open and accepting of other cultures become guarded, cynical, sometimes even hostile when the subject of Roma travelers comes up. It's acceptable to announce your hatred of them in company. No shocked gasps or scandalized stares, just nods of agreement.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with why it's so hard for them to find acceptance too. The cultural identity of traveling makes it more difficult to assimilate; they are always looked at as outsiders. It doesn't help that the children are often pulled out of school early, at age 12 or even younger, and encouraged not to mix with the local kids. So much distancing from both parties breeds even more distrust, a lack of understanding of each other's way of life.

There was a BBC program that showed a town where a group of Roma travelers has placed its roots and built permanent homes for themselves being torn apart by bulldozers. The people living there were dragged away, kicking and acreaming, while their homes were torn apart. I watched it with a group of friends and I think most of them sympathized with the travelers, until it was revealed that they had built the houses illegally, on green land that wasn't meant to be built on. Then the tide turned and everyone went, "Well what were they expecting?? They would do the same to anyone who did that!"

Would the council do the same if it had been a different cultural group? I don't know. But I do know that a major reason for the hatred towards them is their refusal to do things the legit way, although as Amadan pointed out, even if they wanted to engage in legit business, where would they do it?

Yeah, I think it is kind of an intractable problem that would have to be attacked from both sides.

Some cultures, let's face it, have a lot of entrenched malignancy.

I'm sure a lot of it is because of historical persecution - if the law doesn't protect you, why should you respect it, and if outsiders won't do business with you, how else are you supposed to make a living?

That said, I'll bet a Roma community that approached civil authorities and said, "Hey, we want to settle down and build a stable, law-abiding community" would find help available.

Amadan said:

That said, I'll bet a Roma community that approached civil authorities and said, "Hey, we want to settle down and build a stable, law-abiding community" would find help available.

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I'm kind of suspicious that the help would be of the "not in my backyard" kind. The people of the community would fully support the idea as long as they weren't expected to be neighbors.

The mayor now denies having denied the burial, I've read.

Amadan said:

Yeah, I think it is kind of an intractable problem that would have to be attacked from both sides.

Some cultures, let's face it, have a lot of entrenched malignancy.

I'm sure a lot of it is because of historical persecution - if the law doesn't protect you, why should you respect it, and if outsiders won't do business with you, how else are you supposed to make a living?

That said, I'll bet a Roma community that approached civil authorities and said, "Hey, we want to settle down and build a stable, law-abiding community" would find help available.

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Oh please, with the number of otherwise good people with a viterolic hatred for them? Yeah, I don't see that happening. Not when people still want to exterminate their culture, if not the Romany themselves. People can make excuses for the murder of Romany people and things like refusing to bury a Roma baby because they don't see the Roma as really being human. And the people doing this? They may be otherwise the most kind hearted, good people it's possible to know.

Sure, some groups could try to do something like settling down in a legal manner. Opperative word here being try, because I'm sure others would do everything in their power to deny them such permits. In fact, some already live in legally settled communities. That doesn't stop officials from harrasing them or outsiders in generally from harassing them. So, no, settling down isn't the answer. Plenty of Romany in both the US and Europe aren't nomadic but keep as close to their culture as is otherwise possible. It does nothing to change a lot of peoples minds in Europe, and a lot in the US still discriminate against the Romany. It's not a matter of them assimilating, because plenty do. It's a matter of them being on of the few groups it's ok to still hate.

Amadan said:

Yeah, I think it is kind of an intractable problem that would have to be attacked from both sides.

Some cultures, let's face it, have a lot of entrenched malignancy.

I'm sure a lot of it is because of historical persecution - if the law doesn't protect you, why should you respect it, and if outsiders won't do business with you, how else are you supposed to make a living?

That said, I'll bet a Roma community that approached civil authorities and said, "Hey, we want to settle down and build a stable, law-abiding community" would find help available.

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Heh, I'm not so sure they would find help available, with the general consensus I got from the people I came across in Oxford, anyway. There is so little trust from both sides that just one side offering an olive branch would not work, IMO. I have no idea how the issue can be solved, really.

Lillith1991 said:

Oh please, with the number of otherwise good people with a viterolic hatred for them? Yeah, I don't see that happening. Not when people still want to exterminate their culture, if not the Romany themselves. People can make excuses for the murder of Romany people and things like refusing to bury a Roma baby because they don't see the Roma as really being human. And the people doing this? They may be otherwise the most kind hearted, good people it's possible to know.

Sure, some groups could try to do something like settling down in a legal manner. Opperative word here being try, because I'm sure others would do everything in their power to deny them such permits. In fact, some already live in legally settled communities. That doesn't stop officials from harrasing them or outsiders in generally from harassing them. So, no, settling down isn't the answer. Plenty of Romany in both the US and Europe aren't nomadic but keep as close to their culture as is otherwise possible. It does nothing to change a lot of peoples minds in Europe, and a lot in the US still discriminate against the Romany. It's not a matter of them assimilating, because plenty do. It's a matter of them being on of the few groups it's ok to still hate.

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I think you're right in that it wouldn't be as easy as walking to civil authorities and saying they want to settle down legally. I don't think the people I came across see the Roma people as not human though. I think they see them as a culture whose ideologies are way too different from anyone they know.

For example, especially in Oxford, where education is prized as a top priority, the Oxfordians are baffled by the decision to pull their children, especially the girls, out of school by around age 12. They see this as something which perpetuates an unhealthy cycle of uneducated people.

Then there's the Romas' views on women, wherein girls are supposed to be married by age 16 and tend to the babies and the home. They're not allowed to have jobs. I remember there being shock over the courtship ritual of Traveler teens which is called "grabbing". "Grabbing" is where a teen boy literally grabs a teen girl and corners her into kissing him. The girls don't seem to enjoy the practice, but go along with it because, simply, there is no other alternative. People tend to see the way Traveler girls are treated as oppressive, and several of the girls have spoken up about being unhappy with the roles they're given, which, again, led to more hostility towards the culture as a whole from the PoV of outsiders.

I feel like it's a culture that isn't understood by many people, so it ends up getting judged harshly. Maybe if there was some sort of open communication between both sides it would help bridge the gap, but from what I've seen, the hostility runs deep, with both sides looking down on the other because their way is "better".