Shia LaBeouf's Rape?

backslashbaby · Dec 12, 2014

So, a famous person came out with a current rape accusation recently, yet the media isn't going crazy trying to prove or disprove it or even discuss it.

I have to admit that I have no idea what to think, myself. I'll be pissed as hell if he's using the rape for 'artistic' schtick. Those thoughts are not at all because he's a man, btw. They are because he does pull stunts a lot, right? Still totally unfair of me? I honestly don't know.

This recent article is about his art show collaborator's tweets and interview on the subject (they were there):
http://www.theguardian.com/film/201...r-ronkko-speak-alleged-rape-iamsorry-art-show

The earlier report was about him coming out publicly saying he was raped:
http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/28/shia-labeouf-raped-performance-art-project-dazed

I really don't get it. Why is it not a big story somewhere, at least? Someone help me understand.

Brightdreamer · Dec 12, 2014

backslashbaby said:
I really don't get it. Why is it not a big story somewhere, at least? Someone help me understand.

I heard about this. I also heard about people slamming him for his claims.

My guess as to why it's been mostly ignored: because he's pulled so many of those stunts, as you mentioned, that people have stopped hearing him. The Boy Who Cried Wolf syndrome at work.

There's also the popular (wrong) idea that a man cannot be raped by a woman; if he's erect, he "wants" it.

If it really happened, it's a terrible thing, regardless of what one thinks of the man. If it didn't, then shame on him for trivializing rape for publicity purposes. (Though if it really was a PR stunt, it evidently didn't work.)

JMHO...

Opty · Dec 12, 2014

I mean, if he's telling the truth, then I feel awful for him. But, given his recent spate of incredibly odd, attention-whoring behavior, and the fact that lately he's been the male version of Amanda Bynes, his claim has a slight whiff of bullshit to it.

Again, I hate to view stories like this in a "consider the source"/"boy who cried wolf" kind of way...but...

If it's true, then my heart goes out to the guy. If it's Shia LeBouf being Shia LeBouf, then fuck that guy.

I'll remain skeptical for now.

blacbird · Dec 12, 2014

What Opty said. Credibility matters. Shia LaBeef has the credibility of Charles Manson opining on "love".

caw

Cyia · Dec 12, 2014

Shia's credibility is shot, as far as most of the public is concerned. The irony of that is that it highlights exactly the sort of wall too many rape victims hit.

Here we've got a guy who's made a claim. People have backed up his claim. Witnesses have reinforced his claim. And what does it yield? Nothing.

He's not believed, or perhaps worse, he is, and no one seems to care.

There's also a belief that men "can't" be raped, especially by women, which is ridiculous. But it's another wall between a victim and justice.

Justifying a lack of action, especially with addition evidence in the victim's favor, by saying that he's pulled stunts in the past or perhaps has a history of mental issues, is the same kind of victim blame and shame game that says a prostitute can't be raped, neither can a married woman, a gay man at a party, or a girl at night in a short skirt.

CrastersBabies · Dec 12, 2014

I don't know that it's been ignored. I've seen it all over my regular news sites. I don't think they have a suspect? Or nobody has been brought in that I can tell.

I have no reason not to believe him, considering that others at the event were witnesses.

Viridian · Dec 12, 2014

I'm with Cyia.

Has he lied about things for attention in the past? If he has, I'm not aware of it. I know he plagiarized some things, which was shitty, and he's been violent before.

Still, the fact that he's a jerk doesn't mean he's not a victim. We say we shouldn't victim-blame. We say we shouldn't accuse potential victims of seeking attention. We say we should recognize that men can be raped. Well, here it is.

I'd defend a prostitute -- I'd defend a drunk teenager, a woman with a short skirt, a trans* youth, a gay man, or anyone else who says they're the victim of rape, regardless of circumstances. And by god, I'm going to defend Shia LaBeouf too. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but what reason do we have to disbelieve him?

Opty · Dec 12, 2014

Whoops. Nevermind, I totally missed the other article.

Why did the guys who intervened to stop it not have the woman arrested? That's one of the stupidest things I think I've ever read.

You see a rape, you don't just shush the attacker along and tell them to be on their way. You tackle them, call the cops, and throw their ass in jail.

Did they just think it wasn't that big a deal?

Cyia · Dec 12, 2014

Opty said:
Did they just think it wasn't that big a deal?

2 things that strike me with this part of the story.

1 - they likely thought stopping to report anything, especially when it would mean police on site, would compromise "the art." And IF this is the case, then the people in charge should be charged with obstruction or something for not calling the police.

2 - NO WAY did no one in visible sight range not have their camera phone out, at the ready and running at an event like this. SOMEONE had to get this woman on camera. TURN HER IN.

I cannot even begin to process the mindset that a person would have to get into to jump from "invited to speak to" Shia, to "go ahead and have your with" Shia.

Part of the piece was that the man wasn't supposed to speak. That made him non-consensual by default because he couldn't answer even if she'd asked.

backslashbaby · Dec 12, 2014

Cyia said:
2 things that strike me with this part of the story.

1 - they likely thought stopping to report anything, especially when it would mean police on site, would compromise "the art." And IF this is the case, then the people in charge should be charged with obstruction or something for not calling the police.

2 - NO WAY did no one in visible sight range not have their camera phone out, at the ready and running at an event like this. SOMEONE had to get this woman on camera. TURN HER IN.

I cannot even begin to process the mindset that a person would have to get into to jump from "invited to speak to" Shia, to "go ahead and have your with" Shia.

Part of the piece was that the man wasn't supposed to speak. That made him non-consensual by default because he couldn't answer even if she'd asked.

See, this touches on many of the things I don't understand about the story. Is it always understood in performance art that there are sexual boundaries? Certainly there are no sexual boundaries in some performance art, so I was confused with Shia's.

If he's not supposed to speak, that's not really a reason not to speak if you're being raped. I read somewhere that he suffered it for his art, and that makes it not rape to me (eta: if true!).

Granted, there are lots of rapes where folks don't speak! But they don't have security officers literally stationed at the door to the room they are in, watching over them for their own protection. It's still possible, of course.

But then it's during the unusual, interactive performance art of someone who would be likely to want to make a statement about 'what is rape'. I swear, that question could be the art to him, doing that meta thing he's into. Or not, of course.

Then the witnesses didn't know what they were witnessing (see the quotes). That's a bit problematic, too. It's just a mess, imho. It does stack up against Shia.

But, it's still possible. And it's horrible if all of those chips fell that way for him. God knows I've had some bizarre bad luck that strains credibility before. Parts of the story of how I was raped sound like a bad novel, so I do understand that something straining credibility or being overly dramatic doesn't mean it's not true.

OTOH, I don't mind if people have a healthy amount of skepticism about even my own story. Strange coincidences/really bad luck make for greater skepticism and that's completely natural, imho. If I'd been more skeptical back then, I'd have avoided the instigator of my rape much better, frankly. Cynicism can be a helpful trait, too, I found.

Viridian · Dec 12, 2014

Yeah, the articles seem a bit unclear. I feel skeptical of journalists themselves, though, so it might not be "his story doesn't add up" so much as "the journalist's presentation of this story doesn't add up."

Was he restrained? Just too emotionally upheaved to do anything about it? Too confused and uncertain? I mean, it sounds like the point of the "performance piece" was he was supposed to sit still and let people do as they liked as some form of punishment or pathos. He let himself be struck, I mean.

So maybe it's as simple as he was emotionally vulnerable during that time, it sort of went with what was going on, and it seemed easier to lie there and wait for her to stop than to rush outside naked and inform a line of waiting people that a woman was assaulting him. And then at some point he was like, "Whoa, I was raped, and I just let that happen."

... I mean...

... that was kind of what it was like for me. Haha. I've been sexually assaulted, if that's even the right word for it. It wasn't like a whole emotional, horrible thing. I just felt kind of confused and upset. I didn't want to waltz out of the room and announce I'd had someone touch me inappropriately, so I just kind of sat there and waited for him to stop. And then later it hit me: whoa, I did not consent to that.

Wow, this is awkward. Sorry. Anyway, skepticism is healthy, I agree with that.

cornflake · Dec 12, 2014

I agree this was kind of all over the media.

As to the accusations, I've no idea. but my general reaction at the time was an eye roll.

I don't think it was 'you're invited to speak;' I think it was more 'do whatever you want.' I'm NOT suggesting that'd include raping someone, obviously, but I think it was more in the 'everyone is in on his bullshit 'performance art,' thing.' At one point he was 'crying' or whatever, and I think people were yelling and posing for weird selfies and stuff.

I don't think 'he's not allowed to speak,' would preclude mentioning sexual assault. Tilda Swinton did a performance art piece recently, for a celebrity-on-celebrity comparison. She was like, laying wherever, for hours a day. I don't really doubt that if someone started touching her, she'd have done something about it and not just laid there and then brought it up way later like, 'oh, this also happened...'

I don't think the general eye roll has to do with his being a guy, so much as it has to do with his being who he is. Replace him with Lindsay Lohan and repeat the exact story and I feel like you'd get the same reaction from most of the public. There's a level of weird, lying, attention-whoring behaviour that pushes over the wolf-crying territory.

Lillith1991 · Dec 13, 2014

I'm seeing a lot of victim blaming and a lot of disbelief in this thread. And I know people are saying it isn't because he's a guy, but considering the lines of thought being presented which would be considered pure victim blaming had he been a woman ie. "Why didn't he say anything to the guards who were right there." Well I'm not sure the disbelief isn't at least partly because he's a guy. When push comes to shove, particularly with male victims, people still expect the victim to be sqeaky clean. Shia isn't, therefore he isn't the perfect virtuous poster boy for rape. Female on male rape especially.

Celia Cyanide · Dec 13, 2014

ViridianChick said:
I'm with Cyia.

Has he lied about things for attention in the past? If he has, I'm not aware of it.

Yeah, that's a good point. He has done a lot of weird things for attention in the recent past, but I haven't heard anything about him lying or creating any hoaxes.

Rufus Coppertop · Dec 13, 2014

Opty said:
If it's Shia LeBouf being Shia LeBouf, then fuck that guy.

Preferably with his consent!

Lhowling · Dec 13, 2014

I don't know if anyone can or even should comment on this allegation. There are too many holes and since no police report filed, no one really know if this was a stunt or not. I understand the whole idea that people do not report rape; this particular context, however, is intriguing because it was, from my understanding, a public event with witnesses. Shia's artistic project closely resembles Marina Abramovic's Rhythm O, where she had placed objects on a table and allowed patrons to do what they wanted. In an interview she said she learned that when the decision is left up to them, people will respond violently. She's had her clothes ripped off, had a gun held to her head, her stomach stabbed with rose thorns. There's an infamous picture of someone sucking on her nipple, although honestly I've tried searching for information on that image since I'm not sure if it was part of the same project. By the end of it all, she felt violated.

Anyway, part of me believes that while it had not been planned, there is more to this event than did it happen or didn't it because it occurred as part of a performance piece. I think it has very little to do with whether Shia's telling the truth (irrelevant in this case) and more to do with what happens when you give someone unspoken permission to plunge to the depths of their own madness or monstrosity. I believe that's why the woman left and no police report was filed.

Cyia · Dec 13, 2014

The truth is never irrelevant, and the woman didn't "leave," she was chased off.

There's a very real chance that the potential victim in this case is mentally ill. I don't think it's been mentioned in those terms very often in the articles about the incident, but his previous behavior has been concerning enough that there *has* been professional speculation about the man's stability and the possibility that he could be schizophrenic, bi-polar, or something else. It's entirely possible that he was not in a state of mind to know clearly what was happening in the context of his environment or how to react to it - especially IF he is mentally ill and untreated.

That's the part I find so concerning. Mentally ill victims are some of the hardest to get justice for because they're not believed or people try to rationalize their behavior in terms of someone without their illness.

(Usual disclaimer -- I'm not saying the man is mentally ill, as I'm not a doctor and he's not been diagnosed, only that it's valid possibility given his recent history of odd behavior and his age in relation to the common age of expression in certain mental illnesses.)

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 13, 2014

I think Shia LaBeouf's actions suggest someone who is not entirely connected to reality. That said, I think this is a serious matter which should be taken seriously.

Rape is not made okay by circumstances; lack of consent is always lack of consent. Performance art, whatever one may think of it, is no excuse to commit crimes against the performers.

Monkey · Dec 13, 2014

I refuse to doubt him. He has made his claim; the suspect should be charged and tried in court.

AMCrenshaw · Dec 13, 2014

I suppose it's sad my instinct is doubt, thinking this is maybe a publicity stunt, which would be awful for actual victims of sexual assault, but preferable maybe in the sense it might mean no rape occurred against LaBeouf.

And although I understand forgivable circumstances people find themselves in, I also have a certain distaste for accusations of sexual assault (that's a pretty serious accusation) without criminal charges.

Monkey · Dec 13, 2014

AMCrenshaw said:
And although I understand forgivable circumstances people find themselves in, I also have a certain distaste for accusations of sexual assault (that's a pretty serious accusation) without criminal charges.

Not sure I understand this part?

CrastersBabies · Dec 13, 2014

Monkey said:
I refuse to doubt him. He has made his claim; the suspect should be charged and tried in court.

This.

Even if he's mentally unstable, he doesn't deserve to be raped.

AMCrenshaw · Dec 13, 2014

Monkey said:
Not sure I understand this part?

I understand when victims don't file formal charges, considering there are often reasons for not filing formal charges, and that pretty much sucks. Victims deserve justice.

Public accusations without charges don't give anyone anything definite, except the potential for shaming the accused.

Maybe that's appropriate in some circumstances.

backslashbaby · Dec 13, 2014

Lillith1991 said:
I'm seeing a lot of victim blaming and a lot of disbelief in this thread. And I know people are saying it isn't because he's a guy, but considering the lines of thought being presented which would be considered pure victim blaming had he been a woman ie. "Why didn't he say anything to the guards who were right there." Well I'm not sure the disbelief isn't at least partly because he's a guy. When push comes to shove, particularly with male victims, people still expect the victim to be sqeaky clean. Shia isn't, therefore he isn't the perfect virtuous poster boy for rape. Female on male rape especially.

I really would think the same if it were a woman, like with Marina Abramovic's Rhythm O, where she was assaulted. The fact that it took place during a metamodernist performance piece that people thought was like Rhythm O is my big stumbling block.

I'm not thinking it didn't happen, but the 'consent' part gets muddied if it's set up like that, with self-imposed rules of not speaking during whatever the stranger does, etc.

I just don't think it's very comparable to 99.9% cases of rape because of the setup and the self-imposed rules. It still might have been a traumatic rape to him, don't get me wrong!

But as someone who had to worry about just physically being at a party with strangers because of rape (like most women), I can't wrap my mind around the part he played in this one way or the other, yes. Perhaps I'm jealous that he can sit there alone with random strangers and tell them to do anything with him and expect that someone wouldn't pull something 'sexual'. I mean that. That might have to do with him being a man.

I wonder if Rhythm O had her alone with the people. I'll have to look that up.

backslashbaby · Dec 13, 2014

AMCrenshaw said:
I understand when victims don't file formal charges, considering there are often reasons for not filing formal charges, and that pretty much sucks. Victims deserve justice.

Public accusations without charges don't give anyone anything definite, except the potential for shaming the accused.

Maybe that's appropriate in some circumstances.

I agree with your last line, definitely.

I'm still too terrified of my accused to name-drop publicly! But I do think being open about my story lets people know how often rape might occur (and how), if that makes sense, even though I didn't file charges (back in the late 80's). I know it's not proven, but that's OK with me, too. If folks don't think it adds much for them, they can just skip my story as far as I'm concerned

Shia LaBeouf's Rape?

~~~~*~~~~

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

Rewriting My Destiny

Burninator!

local good boy

Rewriting My Destiny

~~~~*~~~~

local good boy

practical experience, FTW

The Hobbit-Vulcan hybrid

Joker Groupie

Mischief Witch

Rewriting My Destiny

Sophipygian

Is me.

...

Is me.

Burninator!

...

~~~~*~~~~

~~~~*~~~~

*

*

*

*