So. . . . that torture thingie.

Myrealana

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"We" didn't do it, the CIA did and as I've said, we have no control over them.

Still, it was done and still, I shed no tears for the prisoners of war.
:Jaw::Jaw:
I have no words.

You're fucking playing devil's advocate, right? If not, I don't even know how to begin to talk to you.
 

cornflake

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Bad things happen in war and radical Muslims declared war on the US long ago. When did that happen, exactly? Radical Muslims are some sort of cohort that declared war? I must've missed that. The CIA lies about everything, they have for years. If they believed a captured combatant might have information, they tried to extract it, the same as the Iraqis did to Americans.

So you shouldn't then, be complaining about anything Iraqis did to Americans, as it's fine with you, correct?

Marine Maj. Craig Berryman says a day hasn't passed in the last 12 years that he hasn't thought of how Iraqi soldiers tortured, kicked and starved him in 1991.

Iraqi guards broke Berryman's left leg, beat him repeatedly and threatened him with shooting and mutilation. A lighted cigarette was twisted into an open wound on his neck, and his requests for medical attention were ignored.

He lost 25 pounds in 37 days and caught a case of dysentery that lasted two years and is likely to cause him digestive tract problems the rest of his life.

He was among 16 Gulf War POWS that also filed reports.

I suppose it's nicer just to stick to napalm than to try to use smart bombs.

Why is it written as if it's bad when, according to your logic, it should be fine to torture him?

"We" didn't do it, the CIA did and as I've said, we have no control over them.

That should not be the case. The CIA doesn't operate outside the law.

Still, it was done and still, I shed no tears for the prisoners of war. So why are you writing about whatsisname above as if his treatment was tragic? War itself is horrible, Saddam was feeding people alive into plastic shredders, making families watch as their loved one was pushed from a roof. His sons had torture and rape rooms and these were all committed against the civilian population. Trying to extract information as to their whereabouts was their goal.

We were led to believe that someone"just walked in" and informed where Saddam's sons were hiding. Strange they didn't claim the reward.

I thought people did, actually.


Thank you for again putting words in my mouth. I said I shed no tears for the enemy combatants. Torture has been going on since the beginning of mankind and that will not change.

Americans are enemy combatants if you're on the other side.

I just make it a point not to get upset over something which I have no control over.

Radical Muslims want everyone to convert, or be killed. You simply can't play nice with these people.

You know blanket statements like this are ridiculous, right?

They are beheading innocent children this week. I have absolutely no sympathy for such people whatsoever.

They WHO? Why have any sympathy for U.S. military who are torturing people then?

Perks: A friend of mine had a great idea. She said, "If we want to end torture, do you know what we should do? Televise it."

I have a niggling feeling it'd have the opposite effect.
 

asroc

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Torture has been going on since the beginning of mankind and that will not change.

Not with that attitude.

I just make it a point not to get upset over something which I have no control over.

Radical Muslims want everyone to convert, or be killed. You simply can't play nice with these people.

They are beheading innocent children this week. I have absolutely no sympathy for such people whatsoever.

I doubt anyone has. But don't you think it's ever so slightly hypocritical to use these people's atrocities as justification to commit atrocities?
 

cornflake

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What can I say, I'm an optimist. I firmly believe the only reason why people support torture is because they aren't thinking about what torture is exactly.

I don't doubt that there are people who, when faced with actual torture, would decry it.

Same as there are people who would stop eating meat if they had to go kill the animals themselves, or if they had to bring home a whole chicken and pluck and gut and behead it.

However, lots of people hunt, and enjoy it, and post pictures of themselves skinning rabbits or, as noted in a thread a while back, pose, grinning, atop endangered African animals they paid tens of thousands to kill.

I think televising torture would just speed up our general descent into Running Man territory, not stop anything, though there'd be people appalled.
 

Amadan

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I think televising torture would just speed up our general descent into Running Man territory, not stop anything, though there'd be people appalled.


Yup. There may be pro-torture advocates who wouldn't have the stomach to actually watch it, but I doubt many of them would actually change their minds.
 

Zoombie

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Fair enough...

I guess I'll stick to my original plan: Humanize the victims, actualize the horror, underline the complete lack of utility...all that stuff.
 

DancingMaenid

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I think televising torture would just speed up our general descent into Running Man territory, not stop anything, though there'd be people appalled.

Also, it used to be more common for people's physical torment and death to be used as entertainment: gladiatorial fights that ended in serious injury and death, public executions, public corporal punishment (like putting someone in a pillory or whipping them).

Though it's nice to think that most people naturally have a sense of empathy that makes viewing violence against real people detestable, I think that's more influenced by our society than we'd care to acknowledge. If people live in a society where torture and executions are treated like something that can be presented for public viewing no differently than a sports game, I think they're probably more likely to become desensitized to it.

Also, sadly, I think a lot of people who know that people have been tortured and are okay with that are going to be okay with it regardless, because they're generally good at dehumanizing the suspects. Showing the torture may not help, but humanizing the suspects might.

There's another group of people who are against torture, but take for granted that our government would never do it, and that whatever methods the CIA uses are probably okay. For them, hopefully things like this report will make a difference.
 

Cyia

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There are also the people who will never believe that it's real, even if they see it televised or streamed live on their computers and phones.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Here's the thing: People want us to do whatever it takes to stop the bad guys. We define the bad guys by their behavior. Once we adopt their behavior to stop them, it kind of loses the fucking point...we become the bad guys. We might just as well let the bad guys have had their way with us and at least kept our morality intact. Now, we're a nation of bad guys run by bad guys with the power to do more bad things on a global scale than the original bad guys did. Oh, and some of these guys...the guys we said were bad guys without trial, without due process...some of the ones we tortured...weren't even bad guys...I, for one, am ashamed to be an American right now. We owe the world an apology. But, we're bad guys now, so we don't apologize to anyone.
 

LittlePinto

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Oh, and some of these guys...the guys we said were bad guys without trial, without due process...some of the ones we tortured...weren't even bad guys...

Yeah, like the CIA's own informants.

I have no words for how disgusted I am that these actions were taken in the name of American citizens. I am even more disgusted knowing that it is unlikely that the criminals involved will suffer any repercussions for the atrocities they committed.
 

CrastersBabies

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What can I say, I'm an optimist. I firmly believe the only reason why people support torture is because they aren't thinking about what torture is exactly.

It's easy to compartmentalize when you're separated from it. It's the dehumanizations of humans (in this case, the incarcerated).

What's baffling is that in this case, the ends don't seem to justify the means.
 

DancingMaenid

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It's easy to compartmentalize when you're separated from it. It's the dehumanizations of humans (in this case, the incarcerated).

Yeah, especially on a large scale, during times of war or similar conflict, it can be easy for a lot of people to other the "enemy" and dehumanize them. Just look at some of the racial caricatures on American WWII propaganda posters. It's easier to be okay wartime actions, both justifiable ones and things like this, if you believe that the enemy is fundamentally inhuman and different than you.

People also tend to feel better if they can blame what happens on the victims. Some of it is about feeling that the people who are abused or tortured genuinely deserve it, but some of it is also about people reassuring themselves that they never have to worry about something like this happening to them. That's very common when it comes to incarceration in general--I see a lot of people brush off examples of prison abuse or police brutality with, "Well, if you don't do anything wrong, you won't get arrested" (which is very tenuous logic, sadly). I see similar logic when it comes to the torture of so-called enemy combatants. I've seen people brush off the fact that some of the suspects were wrongfully detained or released without charge by pointing out that they were still suspicious. Their reasoning seems to be that if you're a Muslim person who has ties to the Middle-East and spends time over there, you get whatever's coming to you. Especially if the CIA can form even the most tenuous link between you and people who are affiliated with terror groups. That's a horrible, horrible justification.
 

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Former Democratic Sen. Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, who previously served on the intelligence committee, argued that his former colleagues were part of a partisan effort.

Democrats, he wrote in an op-ed for USA Today, "started out with the premise that the CIA was guilty and then worked to prove it."

He hammered the committee for relying on documents rather than interviews during the investigation and said the "most significant missed opportunity" was the fact that the report included no recommendations.

"No one would claim the program was perfect or without its problems. But equally, no one with real experience would claim it was the completely ineffective and superfluous effort this report alleges."


I'm a little surprised to also hear that the CIA is pushing back on this report. Usually, these agencies shut up and take the criticism. Which makes me wonder how accurate it actually is? Since the CIA was caught snooping in some congress critters computers, is some of this political payback?


Rarely is it as cut and dried as we're led to believe. I'm going to reserve judgement on this 'report' until the dust settles.
 

DancingMaenid

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Unless the report outright lies about everything, I don't see what information could have been withheld that would make things better.

I mean, the chief problem here isn't the ineffectiveness of the program. It's the techniques that were used. No amount of positive work or results can make up for stuff like waterboarding people and putting them in environments that risk their lives. That's worse than an "imperfect" program.

What I get from Kerrey's op-ed is that he's not disputing what was done so much as arguing that it was more effective than the report indicates and that the CIA essentially did the best it could. And again, I don't think it matters one iota if that's the case.
 

cornflake

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Former Democratic Sen. Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, who previously served on the intelligence committee, argued that his former colleagues were part of a partisan effort.

Democrats, he wrote in an op-ed for USA Today, "started out with the premise that the CIA was guilty and then worked to prove it."

He hammered the committee for relying on documents rather than interviews during the investigation and said the "most significant missed opportunity" was the fact that the report included no recommendations.

"No one would claim the program was perfect or without its problems. But equally, no one with real experience would claim it was the completely ineffective and superfluous effort this report alleges."


I'm a little surprised to also hear that the CIA is pushing back on this report. Usually, these agencies shut up and take the criticism. Which makes me wonder how accurate it actually is? Since the CIA was caught snooping in some congress critters computers, is some of this political payback?


Rarely is it as cut and dried as we're led to believe. I'm going to reserve judgement on this 'report' until the dust settles.

Yeah, we don't want fact-finders relying on documentation. They'd be much better off asking people their, what, opinions?

Also, what recommendation would he like, besides: cut this shit out.

Talk about partisan bullshit. He criticized relying on documentation.
 

rugcat

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Pres. Obama, by executive order, banned the use of torture.

There are lots of people, especially on the right, who think torture is a fine and dandy policy. The next president could rescind that order. If legislation banning torture were to be introduced into Congress today, do you think it would pass?

I seriously doubt it.
 

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So "rectal rehydration" is the new euphemism for anal rape.

Here we are in the 2000s, and the CIA is still using rape as an interrogation/torture technique.

So maybe there will be a drama over this for a bit, a little theater. But the CIA can take it. This is a reoccurring formula. The CIA, or someone, makes a call or takes an action that was wrong, or a mistake, or is later thought to be questionable, unintentionally or intentionally, and they take a little heat for what amounts to a moment of public attention. Congresses come and go. Presidential administrations come and go. But the CIA remains. This is actually an old, tried-and-true schtick. And the real puppet masters know that the CIA is good at taking the heat and ultimately sloughing it off.

What this reminds us, or should remind us, is that the real culprits, the Bush Cabal, enabled by snakes like John Yoo and David Addington, determined that it was above the law and could do anything it liked, that, yes, the ends, like torture, justify whatever means. Well, didn't they at least have the decency to include that little restrainer, "...as long as it doesn't cause organ failure," or some such?

It seems laughable to me, in an unpleasant way, that there seems to be a question being bandied about whether the CIA was somehow renegade, or something, as though they did anything that wasn't more-or-less sanctioned from above, or that they weren't encouraged to do.

Like it was said on the first page of replies, it would be a surprise if George W. knew all the details; they would be smart enough to provide him with plausible deniability, even if at the same time they were standing on the assertion that the president's war time powers set him above the law.

I think a more interesting question is, did the real president, Dick Cheney, know the details? Though again, probably not.

But either way, it was the administration that determined the moral and ethical climate, or lack there of, which produced this kind of stuff.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Though it's nice to think that most people naturally have a sense of empathy that makes viewing violence against real people detestable, I think that's more influenced by our society than we'd care to acknowledge. If people live in a society where torture and executions are treated like something that can be presented for public viewing no differently than a sports game, I think they're probably more likely to become desensitized to it.

I think this is very true.

People will even do things that are against their personal code of ethics if pressed by someone they trust or respect.

And psychologically normal people turn into bullies and torturers when they have absolute and unrestricted rights over other people. This can happen very quickly in dysfunctional settings, even when the people in question don't have some ideology behind them or a history of anti social behavior.

It's very easy to convince oneself that prisoners, or suspected criminals (if you're a cop), or people in a given neighborhood, or the soldiers on the other side of a war, or any members of a different group from yourself are subhuman or deserving of punishment/torture. It's easy to generalize the atrocities committed by some members of a group and assume everyone in that group is personally responsible. It's easy to convince oneself that these people are so dangerous that the normal laws of behavior don't apply to them. Blaming torture on "a few bad apples" is missing the point entirely. It's the command structure that creates the conditions where the little guys, the ones interacting directly with the prisoners and interrogating them, believe they're behaving appropriately.

What's really funny in a sad way is that every argument in favor of torturing suspected terrorists is exactly the same argument they're telling their own recruits in order to get them to do the horrible things they do to us. Violence begets violence. I'm not saying we're no better than ISIS. We have a constitution and a society that's supposed to be based on laws, secularism, and respecting the rights of minority groups. But if we decide it's okay to shit on the constitution in times of war (and notice how we call everything a "war" these days--drugs, crime, terrorism etc), I worry that we could be in a downward spiral where we're becoming more like them.

I find it pretty disturbing that people can defend this by shrugging and saying that torture has always happened. There are plenty of things that have always happened: rape, murder, terrorism, genocide and so on. Should we just legalize all of these things too?

Now I'll get off my soapbox and go give some money to Amnesty International or something :(
 
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People keep using the term "We" in regard to these actions. Neither the Bush administration nor the CIA consulted with me before conducting these tortures, therefore I claim no responsibility for them.

Just like neither the Obama administration nor any other branch of the government consulted with me before giving guns to the cartel, IRS information to the DOJ, covering up the Benghazi blunder, trading key enemy operatives for a deserter or any other of the "phony scandals" as they call them that have besieged this administration. Therefore I claim no responsibility for them either.

It's a shame they don't show the same zeal for the truth to get to the bottom of their own blunders which also killed people, a lot more people than this torture killed. How many people have died and will die in the crossfire of weapons now in the hands of the cartels? What possible purpose did this serve, where is the outrage? To me, the torture of some terrorists pales in comparison to giving guns to the cartel but nobody seems to care about the atrocities of this administration.

I didn't torture these people and again, I simply don't care. They were captured on a battlefield invading another country and killing the people who live there. The civilian population of another country is being slaughtered today by the hundreds by a group of people who don't abide by any rules. Why should I care what happens to them? In my opinion, the world would be better off without them.

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

As far as the disdain for Fox news, I'd be a little upset too if my daily dose of pablum was getting it's butt handed to it as Fox has to the other networks in the ratings. MSNBC announced this week its ratings have now slipped even below CNN. Fox news has been rated number one in the cable ratings for 10 years straight now, so obviously a lot of people like and trust Fox.
 
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Synonym

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It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind how mad the American people were, how shocked, how devastated by the loss of life and the images of 9/11. While many may decry the methods used, we were quite desperate to keep that from happening again. Desperation doesn't excuse everything, but it certainly can cause people to use any method at hand to find out whatever they can.

Other than that, I do remember that we wouldn't have been able to find Bin Laden without learning about his courier and following that courier back to his compound. How did we find out about the courier? From interrogation. Apparently there were some things of value gained. Probably more than we'll ever know. Saying that we gained nothing from interrogation of prisoners isn't true.

I can't say that I'm neutral about the heavy use of drones by the current administration. While I can see that it protects them from the messy business of capturing the enemy and possible charges of torture--is killing them a lesser evil?
 

raburrell

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Other than that, I do remember that we wouldn't have been able to find Bin Laden without learning about his courier and following that courier back to his compound.

According to the report, no. The individual in question gave up the information before he was tortured. Then they did it anyway.
 
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It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind how mad the American people were, how shocked, how devastated by the loss of life and the images of 9/11. While many may decry the methods used, we were quite desperate to keep that from happening again. Desperation doesn't excuse everything, but it certainly can cause people to use any method at hand to find out whatever they can.

Other than that, I do remember that we wouldn't have been able to find Bin Laden without learning about his courier and following that courier back to his compound. How did we find out about the courier? From interrogation. Apparently there were some things of value gained. Probably more than we'll ever know. Saying that we gained nothing from interrogation of prisoners isn't true.

I can't say that I'm neutral about the heavy use of drones by the current administration. While I can see that it protects them from the messy business of capturing the enemy and possible charges of torture--is killing them a lesser evil?

Finally someone not afraid of criticism who speaks an alternative view. There were 12 methods used in these interrogations. All 12 were approved by the president, the National Security Council and the lawyers of the justice department. To blame this strictly on the CIA is false. These same 12 methods are used on our own troops in training on how to resist interrogation.

As has also been pointed out, these people were terrorists, not soldiers, unlawful combatants therefore not covered by the Geneva Convention.