So. . . . that torture thingie.

"Under any common meaning of the term, CIA detainees were tortured..."

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Ten years and $40 million to arrive at that?

This is so nuts - not unexpected, but nuts.

What about the confluence of 'torture doesn't work,' and 'it doesn't MATTER if it does,' doesn't penetrate to these people?

It does. Not. Matter. If it saved lives. Not an excuse to violate laws and rights this way. There's got to be a lawyer in there someplace who might be inclined to explain that.

robeiae said:

Ten years and $40 million to arrive at that?

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Well, the Senate Republicans on that committee (other than Olympia Snowe) are still trying refine "torture" as meaning something else.

The most frightening thing of all is the media reaction to this report, namely Fox, who believe that the report should never have been released because of the damage it could cause to the reputation of the CIA and the US in general.

The CIA are torturing people to death. The torture techniques aren't working and never have. But we shouldn't know this information because it might upset some people?

Bush was kept in the dark, Cheney and Darth Rumsfeld knew but not the extent, Powell would have "blown his stack."

The CIA chiefs didn't know all either.

This is one serious fubar due to lack of oversight, and lack of interest in knowing the details, and a hope that it proved effective. Plausible deniability for sure, but an active disinformation by mid and low level agents? Who do they work for?!?!?

Howard Beale said:

The most frightening thing of all is the media reaction to this report, namely Fox, who believe that the report should never have been released because of the damage it could cause to the reputation of the CIA and the US in general.

The CIA are torturing people to death. The torture techniques aren't working and never have. But we shouldn't know this information because it might upset some people?

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I can't remember where I saw it (Daily Show?), but basically, people are not upset that a report says we were torturing people. They are upset that we were, you know, TORTURING PEOPLE.

raburrell said:

I can't remember where I saw it (Daily Show?), but basically, people are not upset that a report says we were torturing people. They are upset that we were, you know, TORTURING PEOPLE.

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Fox weren't upset with the CIA for torturing people. And a couple of the other news sources I saw weren't either.

The questions they were asking were:

Why are they releasing this info when it will damage reputations?
Will the release of this info put the CIA/USA at risk?

The fact that people were being murdered seemed to have been overlooked.

Detainees were deprived of sleep for as long as a week, and were sometimes told that they would be killed while in American custody. With the approval of the C.I.A.'s medical staff, some C.I.A. prisoners were subjected to medically unnecessary “rectal feeding” or “rectal hydration” — a technique that the C.I.A.'s chief of interrogations described as a way to exert “total control over the detainee.” C.I.A. medical staff members described the waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, as a “series of near drownings.” . . .

. . . The torture of prisoners at times was so extreme that some C.I.A. personnel tried to put a halt to the techniques, but were told by senior agency officials to continue the interrogation sessions.

During one waterboarding session, Abu Zubaydah became “completely unresponsive with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth.” The interrogations lasted for weeks, and some C.I.A. officers began sending messages to the agency’s headquarters in Virginia questioning the utility — and the legality — of what they were doing. But such questions were rejected.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/world/senate-intelligence-committee-cia-torture-report.html

robeiae said:

Ten years and $40 million to arrive at that?

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Apparently it was far more brutal than even those opposed had believed.

In November 2002, a detainee who had been held partially nude and chained to the floor died, apparently from hypothermia. This case appears similar to the that of Gul Rahman, who died of similarly explained causes at an Afghan site known as the “Salt Pit,” also in November 2002. The site was also called “The Dark Prison” by former captives. . .
. . .At the Cobalt facility, the CIA also forced some detainees who had broken feet or legs to stand in stress-inducing positions, despite having earlier pledged that they wouldn’t subject those wounded individuals to treatment that might exacerbate their injuries.

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...uesome-moments-in-the-cia-torture-report.html

And the CIA lied through their teeth about what was going on, not only at the time, but ever since.

The release may well inflame anti American sentiment, but the idea that we can never tell the truth about what we did because it will anger people won't wash either.

rugcat said:

The release may well inflame anti American sentiment, but the idea that we can never tell the truth about what we did because it will anger people won't wash either.

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That's pretty much my view as well.

Here's how we release the information and not inflame anti-american sentiment.

HANG THE BASTARDS.

Put every last fucking one of them on fucking trial for crimes against humanity, sentence them fairly, and hang the people who were responsible for this travesty. Then, move on and never do it again.

The only thing that gives me a bit of faith in this country is that we have the ability to investigate this stuff and bring it out into the open. Though, that feels like a cold comfort when our government agencies are torturing people in the first place.

My biggest fears are that 1) nothing is really going to be done about what happened and 2) that there are people in this country who honestly don't care/mind that this stuff was done.

I'm not sure we can try them fairly.

I'm all for shipping them off to The Hague though.

rugcat said:

The release may well inflame anti American sentiment, but the idea that we can never tell the truth about what we did because it will anger people won't wash either.

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I don't actually think there's too much worry about inflaming anti-American sentiment. The people who are surprised by the findings of the report will likely be Americans or living in countries allied to the US. We'll be sickened and disappointed, but we're not likely to start a war or make terrorist attacks.

The people who MAY be prone to that sort of aggression against the US? I really doubt the report will surprise them. They've believed this about the US for a long time, and obviously for good reason. So the report isn't really going to have much impact on them, I wouldn't think.

I have absolutely no problem with using whatever methods necessary to obtain intelligence from key enemy combatants that saves innocent lives. Furthermore, if I had family on one of those three planes or two buildings I'd say, "Give me the pliers and the knife, please."

We are dealing with a sect that has beheaded innocent children this week along with hundreds of others. They marry and rape 12 year old girls. They stone women and homosexuals. They are worse than vermin yet still you point the finger at America?

We have no control over our government, yet we trust them to protect us and represent us.

They have no problem beheading or crucifying children because they were born Christian. They have no problem carving the heads off of journalists and aid workers on video.

I have no problem with their torture if it gave vital intelligence.

I have a problem it is with the liberal who drove the release of this information for no reason other than to bloody the nose of the opposition, when her party has done the same thing.

It is no secret what they do to us, they behead us, just for believing in another god.

Except... the report says no innocent lives were saved by torture nor did it yield vital intelligence.

^
Also, there was at least one person who was held simply as leverage to get information from a relative. He wasn't suspected of terrorism himself. Pretty hard to justify that, even for the most dedicated torture defenders, imo.

Also, when we're using the same tools as the child murdering, freedom hating sons of bitches, how does that make us any different from the child murdering, freedom hating sons of bitches?

I mean, our drone warfare kills a distressing number of innocent civilians, and we still can't treat our own citizens with the dignity and respect they deserve.

If we want to claim the moral high ground, IT WOULD FUCKING HELP TO ACTUALLY BE MORAL.

raburrell said:

Except... the report says no innocent lives were saved by torture nor did it yield vital intelligence.

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I don't really think that's the relevant question.

Those who approve of torture often set up a hypothetical ticking bomb scenario – a bomb is about to go off and kill hundreds of people, and the only way to get the information is to torture somebody – would you do it?

That's kind of hard to say no to – but in truth such a scenario is nothing but a fantasy.

The real question is whether we are willing to adopt the same methods that terrorists use -- fear, torture, and murder of combatants on the other side, and even those we think may be enemy.

When we adopt the methods of terrorists, it no longer becomes the struggle of good against evil. It becomes the struggle of evil against evil, with only power and brutality to decide who are the virtuous.

Captcha said:

The people who MAY be prone to that sort of aggression against the US? I really doubt the report will surprise them. They've believed this about the US for a long time, and obviously for good reason. So the report isn't really going to have much impact on them, I wouldn't think.

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It could have the impact of swaying any fence sitters, or become a recruiting tool. But what isn't these days.

What damage this report does do is provide real documentation worthy of railing against, instead of trumped up propaganda or decades old tit for tat. Any extremist terror group just got a shot in the arm that they are fighting the good fight.

But the report stands and should be released. And the CIA should be brought to heel. Covert operations and espionage have a place in any realistic foreign policy, but the rule of law needs to apply. And examples need to be made.

This whole torture issue underlines just how fucking short sighted the ideology of realpolitik is.

Basically, realpolitik is a gritty, hard nosed way of dealing with the nations and people's around you. It is about power and material, not about ethics...and what it seems to end up doing is making every action a country makes be focused on ONE THING: The short term betterment of THEIR people.

America has a long, disgusting history of this - in past and recent history, and right now. During the Cold War, we armed the Mujaheddin and trained them to give us a short term advantage - to screw the Soviets. During the Cold War, we overthrew the Sha, to give us a short term advantage. We propped up the South Vietcong for a short term advantage.

And now, we've tortured...for a short term advantage. To "protect" the American people.

And what has it done? It's ruined our reputation, bred a new generation of people willing to fly PLANES into buildings, and pissed off half our own country.

It has saved no people.

It has stopped no plots.

It has been utterly, completely, FUCKING POINTLESS.

Maybe we should change our goals from short term "screw everyone around us over so we get the best stuff" to something less...psychotic.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution,” – Ronald Reagan’s signing statement on the ratification of the UN Convention on Torture.

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http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/

I'm really glad this report was released.
Bad things always happen when there's a dick in the white house.


ETA: .

Let me state this as plainly as I can: this is Nazi-level criminality and brutality. This is unimaginable sadism. If the people who did this and those who authorized this are allowed to get away with this, and even be praised by presidents for it, then we have left our civilization behind.

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http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/ same as above

Andreas_Montoya said:

I have absolutely no problem with using whatever methods necessary to obtain intelligence from key enemy combatants that saves innocent lives. Furthermore, if I had family on one of those three planes or two buildings I'd say, "Give me the pliers and the knife, please."

Then you do have a problem with the Constitution and laws of the United States.

We are dealing with a sect We who? What sect? There's no sect that everyone the CIA kidnapped and tortured belonged to, nor do many of us claim these actions. that has beheaded innocent children this week along with hundreds of others. They marry and rape 12 year old girls. Wait, we're talking about Warren Jeffs?! They stone women and homosexuals. They are worse than vermin yet still you point the finger at America? "He hit Bobby, so why'd I get in trouble for what I did?!" Really? Did your parents never respond to that type of thing with, 'I don't care what he did; I care what you did'? The two things aren't related in any way. North Korea has been starving and killing people for decades, so it's fine if Warren Jeffs does whatever.

We have no control over our government, yet we trust them to protect us and represent us.

They have no problem beheading or crucifying children because they were born Christian. They have no problem carving the heads off of journalists and aid workers on video. Who are you talking about?

I have no problem with their torture if it gave vital intelligence. Great, except a. that's not the barometer, and b. even if it were, it didn't.

I have a problem it is with the liberal who drove the release of this information for no reason other than to bloody the nose of the opposition, when her party has done the same thing. It should be released because it should be released. We have a right to know what OUR government is doing. We certainly should know when agents employed by government agencies break the fucking law, kill people, and apparently think themselves so above reproach that they lie to nearly everyone in charge about their actions. By what reasoning should this level of law-breaking, lying and misdeed stay secret?


It is no secret what they do to us, they behead us, just for believing in another god.

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Again, who are you talking about? Who are 'they' and who are 'us?'

Zoombie said:

This whole torture issue underlines just how fucking short sighted the ideo
It has saved no people.

It has stopped no plots.

It has been utterly, completely, FUCKING POINTLESS.

Maybe we should change our goals from short term "screw everyone around us over so we get the best stuff" to something less...psychotic.

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The real purpose of torture is to get someone to say what you want him or her to say, or to confess to a crime you want him or her to confess to. And if you hurt or terrify someone badly enough, they'll almost certainly tell you anything you want to hear. Torturers have all kinds of reasons here: creating scapegoats when they can't find the real culprits (or want to deflect blame from themselves), making it look like they're doing something to make their people safer (looks like they've done a good job of convincing some people, reinforcing cultural prejudices and stereotypes, confirming a hypothesis your career may be hanging on, or simply sheer laziness. Sometimes it's just about scaring your detractors so much they won't oppose you, because they know they or their loved ones will be tortured.

All of these reasons are completely fucking evil, of course.