Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right

RichardGarfinkle

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I was kind of teasing about modal logic. Plantinga's reworking of the Ontological Argument drips with modal logic, and it doesn't make the ontological argument any less stupid than it has always been.

I've also always found Leibniz's "best possible world" argument to be incredibly weak, theologically incoherent and now, given how much more we know of the Earth and universe, entirely obsolete.

However, as distant as theologian apologetics are from what is generally taught in church, they do influence what is taught in seminaries and preaching colleges, so educated preachers (rather than self-taught people like Joel Osteen) are influenced, at least academically, by advanced theology and apologetics.

How much of that trickles down to the average churchgoer via sermons/homilies is debatable, and it's a slow process. It's an indirect influence, but influential nonetheless.

You're right about the teachings and the affect they have on priests and so on. But It's pretty clear that the laity are choosing some aspects of their lives (e.g. birth control) without heeding the hierarchy. But ultimately it becomes a problem the hierarchy needs to deal with. They can't clean house among the laity (there are too many of them), so they will either need to change their views or continue to turn a blind eye with occasional grumpy sermons.

Liebniz' argument lacks finesse, but it's actually pretty sophisticated. Possible worlds is a pretty tricky concept to do anything with, and imagining God picking among all the worlds he could create is a pretty strong leap of imagination.

Plantinga's argument is an abuse of modal logic, since he's talking about a being who would exist in all possible worlds. But the object in different possible worlds are different objects. If you posit a multiverse, you are positing a single possible world that has a multiversal structure, not a multiverse of possible worlds in a modal logic sense.

His argument therefore boils down to: in a multiverse with God, God exists.
 

Opty

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Liebniz' argument lacks finesse, but it's actually pretty sophisticated. Possible worlds is a pretty tricky concept to do anything with, and imagining God picking among all the worlds he could create is a pretty strong leap of imagination.

Sophistication, I would argue, does not itself impute logical coherence. In fact, it oftentimes does nothing more than obfuscate.

I know this thread train has derailed waaaaay of its original tracks but, if you'll indulge me, I'll explain.

Leibniz' argument is fraught with logical contradictions, if not outright fallacies. Firstly, it seems (to me) that most of his arguments were based on a priori assertions, most of which based on what I feel to be his rather question-begging, recursive take on "The Principle of Sufficient Reason." As I'm sure you know (you're a bit smarter than me in this area), he believed God to be a necessary being without which the universe could not have come into existence or continue to exist; Leibniz' concept of God as "cosmic optimizer." However, there aren't really such things as necessary beings, so he's already failed right out of the gate, imo. As Sean Carroll puts it:

If you have God intervening in the world, you can judge it by science and it’s not a very good theory. If on the other hand God is completely separate from the universe, what’s the point? But if God is a necessary being, certainly existing but not necessarily poking into the operation of the world, you can have your theological cake without it being stolen by scientific party-crashers, if I may mix a metaphor. The problem is, there are no necessary beings. There is only what exists, and we should be open to all the possibilities.

Also, his BPW's idea is itself contradictory to the idea of free will* (I think it was Russell who pointed that out? Maybe others, I can't recall) not to mention his 3-omni God being self-contradictory.**

So, like Pascal's full explanation of his "Wager," Leibniz' BPW argument sacrifices logical soundness (and coherency, to be honest) for sophistication. That's my take on it, anyway. YMMV. :)



*As I touched on up-thread, the mainstream Christian theological concept of God giving man "free will" is incompatible with the notion of God deterministically creating a "best possible world" (i.e. "everything happening according to His plan").

**An omnipotent being would be able to create another being who is completely free and independent. Complete freedom implies freedom of thought, as well, and that one's thoughts are his/her own and accessible to no one else. Such a creation (and the ability to create it) is incompatible with omniscience (knows everything and knows everyone's thoughts). The two are mutually exclusive.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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You're certainly correct about the necessary beings point, and I see what you're saying on the other aspects. I was falling a bit into the fallacy of projecting later achievements backwards toward those who set in motion the thinking that led to them.

The interesting thing to me about Liebniz' argument (and Pascal's wager come to that) is how the arguers let themselves be blinded by what they assumed had to be true (Liebniz' idea of the necessity of God, Pascal's inability to conceive of any alternatives to the God he was used to). The frameworks they created are valuable even if they let themselves be misled by their presumptions.

The Free Will / Best of All possible worlds contradiction is one I wonder about. If one conceives of a God outside of spacetime, capable of observing all events in spacetime simultaneously, and capable of picking among multiple spacetimes, that God can rig the system. The God can choose to create a universe in which the free willed beings of that universe happen to make the choices the God would prefer be made.

I.e. the God is picking among possible worlds, one to make "actual" without taking away the free will of the beings in that world.
 

kuwisdelu

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What this conversation needs is a naked mole rat.

ETA:

Come to think of it, most conversations in P&CE could use a naked mole rat.

squealer-my-name-is.jpg


squealer-we-are-human.jpg
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
So how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, anyway?