University of North Carolina's academic scandal grows

Why can they not take back the diplomas? It seems like when I've heard of cases where a person is caught plagiarizing after the fact, that they have their diploma nullified or something along those lines.

That being said, this is completely sickening. What bothers me is that teachers and coaches knew about this and allowed it to happen. There needs to be a very serious purge of professors and coaches and administrators going on here.

I think those students could have blown the whistle on those classes long ago.

It's corruption based on athletics, and I think everyone knew UNC did it. The students taking a real curriculum wouldn't have known the details, so I hate to see their reputations tarnished because of the university corruption regarding athletics.

Still, it's long been known/rumored that UNC's top folks bow down to athletic corruption, imho. I always preferred Duke, absolutely, although I have many friends who went to UNC and got really great degrees. (And Duke is private where UNC is public, so cost often plays a factor in which to choose!).

The NCAA has the power to shut down athletic programs. They famously did this back in the 1980s to Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas, when they uncovered massive blatant illegal cash payments being made to football players by rich boosters. At the time, SMU was a football power; NFL Hall-of-Famer Eric Dickerson had just come out of SMU. The football program was killed, defunct for a number of years, and since being reinstated, SMU has never been a significant football school.

At UNC, such a penalty would most heavily affect the storied basketball program, if these allegations involve players in that sport. UNC football, on the other hand, has never been very prominent that I can remember. Might as well kill it and start over.

caw

Well, UNC football did produce Lawrence Taylor. I'm not sure if that's a net positive, though...

I guess there's a chance UNC might have to forfeit a bunch of basketball games and some national championships. Given the Penn State punishments, I'm thinking that chance is better than 50%.

backslashbaby said:

I think those students could have blown the whistle on those classes long ago.

It's corruption based on athletics, and I think everyone knew UNC did it. The students taking a real curriculum wouldn't have known the details, so I hate to see their reputations tarnished because of the university corruption regarding athletics.

Still, it's long been known/rumored that UNC's top folks bow down to athletic corruption, imho. I always preferred Duke, absolutely, although I have many friends who went to UNC and got really great degrees. (And Duke is private where UNC is public, so cost often plays a factor in which to choose!).

Click to expand...

How many of those thousands of students didn't go into the pros? Or had short careers? And then went on to teach athletics - quietly spreading the message to suitable candidates that they'd be 'taken care of' at UNC? Heck, how many high-school players, especially in sports-mad towns already think they're special? Possibly why they didn't think the 'academic' side of UNC was a little ... strange?
I hope the investigation continues through every school in the NCAA.
Even the lone Canadian one.

frimble3 said:

Even the lone Canadian one.

Click to expand...

The University of Wisconsin?

The only kids I sent there had outstanding grades in AP courses and great SAT scores, but they were girls in womens' athletics. I have no experience in men's athletics with Chapel Hill.

robeiae said:

The University of Wisconsin?

Click to expand...

Nope. Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Up on the big hill behind my house. Traditional rival: University of British Columbia, which is not in the NCAA. I don't even know if they still play Canadian football at all, I imagine they dropped that to play U.S. rules like all their new friends.

I believe it was a ploy to get their athletes better access to all the NCAA schools across the line. I have no idea how they are ranked athletically, but SFU has a prize-winning pipe band.

Geez, and I thought the Jan Kemp thing was bad (it really WAS bad for Jan, may she rest in peace).

Cathy C said:

I think the problem with the diplomas is that they completed the approved curriculum, as advertised. They paid for the credits and passed. They didn't cheat. That the classes themselves were a fraud can't be put onto the students who were allowed to take and pass them.

Click to expand...

Can a school lose accreditation for something like this? I would think and hope so.

blacbird said:

The NCAA has the power to shut down athletic programs.

Click to expand...

You mean make it so they can't play other NCAA teams?

After a moment's thought, that pretty much IS shutting down a college athletic program. "Never mind..."

They famously did this back in the 1980s to Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas, when they uncovered massive blatant illegal cash payments being made to football players by rich boosters. At the time, SMU was a football power; NFL Hall-of-Famer Eric Dickerson had just come out of SMU. The football program was killed, defunct for a number of years, and since being reinstated, SMU has never been a significant football school.

Click to expand...

So apparently there's two things that are "free" but illegal to pay money for: sex, and college football players.

And as much as I hesitate to be pedantic (again, ISTR I pointed this out before), I presume cash payments to college students for playing NCAA college football are blatantly against NCAA rules, but not against any actual law.

C.bronco said:

The only kids I sent there had outstanding grades in AP courses and great SAT scores, but they were girls in womens' athletics. I have no experience in men's athletics with Chapel Hill.

Click to expand...

Apparently women's athletics, even with winning teams, doesn't attract significant alumni donations, and therefore isn't vulnerable to being corrupted.

I wouldn't be surprised if independent studies programs, grade inflation and athletic bias have not had the same effect in a great many universities.

benbradley said:

You mean make it so they can't play other NCAA teams?

Click to expand...

Correct.

benbradley said:

I presume cash payments to college students for playing NCAA college football are blatantly against NCAA rules, but not against any actual law.

Click to expand...

Again, correct. This is a matter of NCAA jurisdiction, not about legality. But HUGE amounts of money are involved, for any university under this cloud. The only two athletic programs that matter, really, are football and basketball. But for the big prestigious schools, these programs bring in immense amounts of money. Shutting one down would cost the university many millions of dollars.

benbradley said:

Apparently women's athletics, even with winning teams, doesn't attract significant alumni donations, and therefore isn't vulnerable to being corrupted.

Click to expand...

The one exception I can think of is the University of Connecticut women's basketball program, which is the most prominent in the nation, and does indeed have huge backing from fans and alumni. Which is not to say that it's been corrupted, just that it's the only one I can think of that has such a level of support.

caw

veinglory said:

I wouldn't be surprised if independent studies programs, grade inflation and athletic bias have not had the same effect in a great many universities.

Click to expand...

Oh, no doubt! UNC might have been particularly bad, I'd think. That was my impression for decades, anyway, but audits would be the only way to know, I guess.

I don't think it's strong enough to "indict" the students who went through this, but, no classes, no professors, no requirements of any sort, really...

These students knew. It's entirely possible there's *just* enough plausible deniability for UNC to have its hands tied.

But these students knew. Of that I'm pretty certain. And for that, I hold them accountable.

Not that that's worth much.

I attended UNC undergrad, as a slightly older student, about 15 years ago. I had to take all the freshman classes, English 101 etc and I have to tell you, I was blown away by how un/under-educated my fellow students were.

In the early English classes, some could read only basic sentences, and their writing (I helped a few, so I know) was roughly on a par with how my 10 year-old twins write now. I was truly surprised. Likewise, the level of discourse in other classes, the basic philosophy class comes to mind, was at a depressingly low level.

To my recollection, every single one of the students whose education/intelligence dismayed me was at UNC to play football or basketball.

Which is to say, I'm not surprised by this at all. Just saddened.

This is slightly off-topic, but at the university I went to for my undergrad, we had the same problem with students being undereducated and, in particular, unable to write (it's gotten worse, actually, as someone who has worked with college students and writing in particular for years). What was always alarming to me is that the students who had the worst writing, and we're talking literally unaware of what a paragraph was, were the students training to be teachers.

backslashbaby said:

I think those students could have blown the whistle on those classes long ago.

Click to expand...

It's popular these days to treat higher education like it's a business and to refer to students as our "customers." If it really is a business, higher education is pretty much the only one where you can give your "customer" less for their money and they'll be happy.

Why? Because people think the "product" they're paying for is the piece of paper they get at the end, not the actual education it is supposed to represent.

This dilution of the curriculum is despicable, but in my opinion it's one more aspect of the rot that comes with the so-called business model.

kaitie said:

This is slightly off-topic, but at the university I went to for my undergrad, we had the same problem with students being undereducated and, in particular, unable to write (it's gotten worse, actually, as someone who has worked with college students and writing in particular for years).

Click to expand...

I wrote about Georgia's "Regents Test" here. I recall hearing/reading about the history of it when I took it, circa 1977. Many people were appalled at the lack of basic writing ability of many Georgia college graduates, and so they came up with this essay test one has to pass in order to graduate. I passed it on the second attempt (the required remedial course for those who fail and aimed specifically at passing the test probably helped), but I knew someone who had failed it eight times, and it was getting close to keeping him from graduating.

The State of Georgia doesn't have a good reputation for education, but the Regents Test is one of the best things the State has done.