Stand Your Ground Laws and Domestic Violence...

cmhbob

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Sorry, Robo. I skimmed right over that link in your post, which would have saved me a google search. :D

But to the extent people didn't look at your link, I've given them some pretty bolded text to consider.

Anyway, to me, as a lawyer, it's crystal clear that the SC statute does not apply to domestic violence. Indeed, it specifically excludes it. You can't pretend the law doesn't say what it clearly says.
CassandraW, what about section C? Isn't that a catch-all? And I didn't see that the statute specifically excluded DV.
(C) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in another place where he has a right to be, including, but not limited to, his place of business, has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he reasonably believes it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or another person or to prevent the commission of a violent crime as defined in Section 16-1-60.
 

CassandraW

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It's part of the same statute. You read statutes as a whole -- you do not interpret one part to void the clear meaning of another part. And nothing could be clearer or more specific than parts A and B of that statute: if the attack is in your house, vehicle, or place of business, the presumption that you're in imminent peril (and therefore justified in using deadly force instead of retreating) doesn't apply if the attacker is also lawfully in that place. The presumption (and thus the defense) only applies if the attacker has no legal right to be there. It's said more than once -- that language is no accident. You can't pretend it's not there by reading another section to negate it.

So the so-called "catchall" in Section C would only apply to situations not already directly and more specifically covered in sections A and B.

Section C could apply to the bar fight scenario. You're lawfully in the bar, someone attacks you; you have the right to meet force with force.

It strikes me as rather a poorly written statute, because it seems to me that if someone attacked his partner in a bar, she could potentially invoke section C. But if he attacked her in the home they share, Sections A and B would mean the statute doesn't apply, and she'd have to fall back on a self-defense argument. Does that make sense to me? Not really. But that's what the statute says. :Shrug:

I'm guessing the intent was for the entire statute to apply to attacks by strangers and not to domestic abuse. But IMO the language of Section C does leave an opening for domestic abuse cases where the abuse occurs outside the home. Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write the thing.
 
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backslashbaby

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It does seem to allow for the restraining order issue, but they also have to enter by force, if I'm reading it correctly:

"(E) A person who by force enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle in violation of an order of protection, restraining order, or condition of bond is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act regardless of whether the person is a resident of the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle including, but not limited to, an owner, lessee, or titleholder."

But it wouldn't cover situations where the shooter argues they were appeasing the partner temporarily (for safety reasons)? The partner has to literally bust in, too?

Or can 'force' be verbal and/or based on knowledge of past incidents?
 

Karen Junker

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Late last night, I remembered something slightly odd.

We have a 2001 Sienna van that we use primarily for transporting our rescue dogs. About a year ago, the light came on that said there was something wrong with the power doors. It caused a loud buzzer to sound. We found out from the dealership that it's around $3K per door to troubleshoot that, and they don't guarantee that they can fix it. So we disabled the power doors and only use them manually.

A few months later, the light kept coming on to tell us that the doors weren't closed all the way. We went around the van, opening and closing all the doors. The light stayed on. We opened and closed doors for several days. The light stayed on. We took the van to the dealer's repair department -- and when the tech got in the van, the light wasn't on. They opened and closed all the doors over 100 times trying to get the light to come on again, but it never did.

Last month, I was leaving to go pick up a dog in the van. When I tried to open one of the side slider doors, it would not budge. The other side wouldn't budge either. I ended up driving the other car to get the dog. When my husband got home, the doors both worked fine.

So when someone says they can't get something to work and then it works fine later, I believe them.

In my domestic violence training last night, the instructor talked about the continuum of domestic violence. Most cases never end in a criminal case. It starts in small ways -- and some never get to the point of physical violence. But there are insidious ways that abusers select, groom and then systematically begin to abuse their victims -- and there is always an emotional component.

If someone uses profanity to ridicule and dismiss you, that is a sign that they may be an abuser.
 

robeiae

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CassandraW, what about section C? Isn't that a catch-all? And I didn't see that the statute specifically excluded DV.

It's part of the same statute. You read statutes as a whole -- you do not interpret one part to void the clear meaning of another part. And nothing could be clearer or more specific than parts A and B of that statute: if the attack is in your house, vehicle, or place of business, the presumption that you're in imminent peril (and therefore justified in using deadly force instead of retreating) doesn't apply if the attacker is also lawfully in that place. The presumption (and thus the defense) only applies if the attacker has no legal right to be there. It's said more than once -- that language is no accident. You can't pretend it's not there by reading another section to negate it.

So the so-called "catchall" in Section C would only apply to situations not already directly and more specifically covered in sections A and B.

Section C could apply to the bar fight scenario. You're lawfully in the bar, someone attacks you; you have the right to meet force with force.

It strikes me as rather a poorly written statute, because it seems to me that if someone attacked his partner in a bar, she could potentially invoke section C. But if he attacked her in the home they share, Sections A and B would mean the statute doesn't apply, and she'd have to fall back on a self-defense argument. Does that make sense to me? Not really. But that's what the statute says. :Shrug:

I'm guessing the intent was for the entire statute to apply to attacks by strangers and not to domestic abuse. But IMO the language of Section C does leave an opening for domestic abuse cases where the abuse occurs outside the home. Hey, don't blame me. I didn't write the thing.
Ahem...
Here is the relevant statute (Article 6). Clearly, the Castle Doctrine isn't going to work, as it requires the attacker to be unlawfully entering the location (home, business, car). But SECTION 16-11-440 (C) leaves the door open for an SYG defense in specific situations. By my reading, however, it lines up with the standard idea of self defense at that point.

*shakes head and walks away*
 

CassandraW

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Face it, Robo. No one read your sentence.

I think it's that "suck a duck" avatar. Very distracting.
 

Amadan

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I thought she was smoking it.

... okay, that's not really any better.
 

badwolf.usmc

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If someone uses profanity to ridicule and dismiss you, that is a sign that they may be an abuser.

If that is true, then i've been abused at my work well over a hundred times, mostly by women who think that just because they are a mother they can order Social Scurity Cards without an ID.
 

backslashbaby

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The duck is awesome, if distracting :D

Well, I can't get anyone saying it has to be a stranger to acknowledge that a restraining order makes a lot of difference at least if you still don't let him in.

But it looks to be true, so SYG can cover domestic violence in very many cases. But a restraining order is crucial, then.
 

robeiae

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Well, I can't get anyone saying it has to be a stranger to acknowledge that a restraining order makes a lot of difference at least if you still don't let him in.

But it looks to be true, so SYG can cover domestic violence in very many cases. But a restraining order is crucial, then.

Not to beat this duck into the ground, but SYG laws mostly impact situations outside of the home. And when we're talking domestic violence where it isn't applicable, we're largely talking about incidents at homes.

If there is a restraining order, the Castle Doctrine is going to be the controlling law, by and large, not SYG.

:)