Baton Pass POV Change

I've seen it done and I absolutely hate it. Too much head-hopping for me. I like POV changes to be done only at scene breaks or chapter breaks.

I've occasionally done this, tho I call it "rotating the camera". Readers have not objected. In fact, far as I can tell from betas' remarks, no one has even noticed.

Like everything else, it's all in the execution.

It works best when there's a scene change involved and the characters are perhaps on the move (hence the baton-passing metaphor), such as when two characters pass on a gangway during a fight on a pirate vessel or something and the fight continues on a different part of the vessel with the new POV character. I seem to recall seeing that done here in a submission somewhere.

Not sure I can see it working where the only basis for using it is that a decision can't be made on whose POV to use in a scene.

Coralynn said:

Someone suggested to me that I employ a technique called a Baton Pass POV change.

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Not a fan. But if you do it, make it very clear there's been a POV change, and choose an appropriate moment in the scene to do it.

What might be better is to end the scene with one POV and have the next scene pick up the other POV. No change in time or location, only POV.

When I tried this technique in a scene I posted on SYW some time ago, another member pointed me to a blog post that illustrates several methods for switching POV:

http://jamigold.com/2013/07/7-methods-for-handling-point-of-view/

After playing around with mid-scene POV changes in my current WIP, I ended up deciding only to switch at scene breaks. It's easier for me, and for readers, I think. If I really need to explain what the non-POV character was thinking during a scene, it can usually be done with a sentence or two the next time we're in that character's point of view.

Anything can work, if done well enough, but I've never seen a need for a baton pass shift. Each time I've seen it, it always came across as a lack of knowledge on how to get all the information in a scene across from a single POV.

If you feel you absolutely must change POV, just use a scene break, and switch there. Scene breaks do not always mean the scene/location is changing, only that the POV character is changing.

It is rarely necessary to use more than one POV for any scene. Most new writers do so because they don't know how to get everything they want into the scene from a single POV. This said, I think replaying the same scene trhough more than one POV is considerably more acceptable than the baton change POV technique.

In workshops, I've read submissions that switched first-person POVs mid-scene, and it was jarring. It was also not favorably received by the workshop leader, an agent.

If it was in third-person, it wouldn't be as jarring as first, but even then it's still a challenge. I've only ever seen true head-hopping once in a published novel--although I'm not the most voracious reader--and it kind of worked, but it was literary fiction. An omniscient POV might lend you the flexibility you need and can be easier to wrangle. But even with that, a lot of switching can be disruptive. That said, there are always times it can be used to incredible effect. Tolstoy was a master of omniscient and moving through POVs within scenes.

I'd ask yourself if the switch REALLY needs to happen, or if you're trying to cut corners on character or scene development. Know it's a risk, and you can decide then if it's one worth taking. Sometimes, the story just needs to be told a certain way, typical results be damned.

Line breaks at the very least, switching at scene breaks, and switching at chapter breaks all seem to help in keeping the reader inside the story.

The way I've done it is essentially this:

POV is Character A, present in scene.
Character B enters and they interact.
The focus gradually shifts to Character B.
Character A departs, leaving us with Character B's POV.

I've tried rewriting these to be all in one POV or the other and the results have been unsatisfactory -- stiff or unnatural. Insert a scene break? Not when it's all one scene.

But I generally let the camera flow where it will, rather than trying to force it. And I don't decide POV in a scene up front; rather, I let the characters determine that. This is a natural effect of discovering the scene as it's written, literally from one word to the next.

ETA: Considering the wild array of iffy POVs, headhops, and the like that I've seen in big-5 published books, I'm not convinced the editors notice any of this unless it's gracelessly done, and sometimes not even then.

Reziac said:

The way I've done it is essentially this:

POV is Character A, present in scene.
Character B enters and they interact.
The focus gradually shifts to Character B.
Character A departs, leaving us with Character B's POV.

I've tried rewriting these to be all in one POV or the other and the results have been unsatisfactory -- stiff or unnatural. Insert a scene break? Not when it's all one scene.

But I generally let the camera flow where it will, rather than trying to force it. And I don't decide POV in a scene up front; rather, I let the characters determine that. This is a natural effect of discovering the scene as it's written, literally from one word to the next.

ETA: Considering the wild array of iffy POVs, headhops, and the like that I've seen in big-5 published books, I'm not convinced the editors notice any of this unless it's gracelessly done, and sometimes not even then.

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Scene break work as well in one scene as in fifty scenes. What does not work, in my opinion, is changing POV in mid-scene. However you slice it, that's head-hopping, and a bad, bad, bad idea. And if one character leaves at teh end of the scene, there was never any reason whatsoever to change POVs. You just changed scenes when he left, so there was no reason not to wait for this, insert a scene break, and go about your way.

Editors most certainly DO notice when a writer head-hops, and you'll have to point out all those head-hops in big five books. Pretty much the only time I see the is in omniscient

It's not about "forcing" anything, and there is no camera. There's only you, and your decision to head-hop or not.

But I guarantee editors notice, and so do a great many readers. Head-hopping means a quick reject, for me, unless you're Nora Roberts, exceptionally, ridiculously good, and admit it's bad but you don't know how to do it any other way. Then I'll probably fix it during editing.

As a reader, unless it's done right in good omniscient, heading like that mid-scene means I close the book, and scratch that writer off my list.

People really do notice, which is why advice everywhere says don't do it. Head-hopping is never, ever necessary, as all the good writers out there prove with every book.

As a reader, I don't like it. However if I like everything else enough, I'll get over it. The later in the novel this occurs the more you can probably get away with it. Within the opening few scenes? Bad idea.

There was a big-five NYT YA best-seller that had head-hopping on the opening pages and despite JR's comments above, I'm not sure how it got through those filters, but it did, somehow and yes, it was head-hoppy, not Omni. And yes, because it happened so early on, I figured this writer may well have been a walking lottery ticket and couldn't be bothered to read the rest of the book ... I've seen other books that were brutal with POV shifts, but they'd already established themselves with other books.

I've run across the concept of baton passing pov changes in blogs and craft books. I don't get the impression it's terribly common anymore.

I'd probably read up on it and find a few books that do this successfully, though I can't think of any off the top of my head. I've heard of the technique, but I got the impression it might work in that style of shallower limited third that is close to omniscient, at least in how the narrative feels. It might be jarring in deep. If you are going to try it, pulling the camera out a bit before the "pass" them moving in deeper after the pass might be the way to go, rather than switching from deep to deep.

Is there a reason why you can't just have a line break when you shift the pov?

Wilde_at_heart said:

I've seen other books that were brutal with POV shifts, but they'd already established themselves with other books.

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Just because it was done by the author and the books got published doesn't mean they were well-received by readers, or that it didn't have an uphill battle to publication. If readers embrace a book with head-hopping, it may well be in spite of that treatment, not because of it. For me personally, I would rather not intentionally annoy the reader if I could solve the problem another way. JR is right that editors and agents certainly notice head-hopping. Some may not mind it, but it can also be a ticket to rejection. So, like I said earlier, it's a risk. Only the author can decide if it's one worth taking. Perhaps it is.

I can see it being used where there is a key object in the scene, i.e. an engagement ring or something:

Warren nervously reached into his pocket as he sank to one knee. Producing the black velvet box, he steeled his nerve and hoped the words came out the way he had rehearsed them a thousand times over the last month.

"Bunnykins, my little lettuce leaf, will you do me the honour of becoming Mrs Burrows?'

As he opened the box, revealing the flashing two-carrot, lettuce green emerald nestled in a gold rabbit foot setting, Bunnykins gasped.

She reached out and touched the pillow of orange silk cushioning the precious gem. She couldn't believe it, he had finally asked. After only six months of leaving Woodland Bride and Sylvanian Nuptials magazine on the coffee table, making casual remarks about cohabiting couples lacking commitment, and pointing out how easy it would be to extend his credit limit, she had finally brow beaten him into submission.

And their couples therapist said she was passive aggressive. Hah!