Page #s: Print vs eBook

Whimsical Writing said:

So when I began writing my books, the manuscript format requirements circa 1999 was 12 pt Courier, double spaced, which they estimated would be roughly 250 words per page. Fine...so this is how I drafted all my manuscripts. I'm currently writing Book 2 of my series, and I decided to save myself a little agony, and format according to Smashwords' Style Guide as I go along. My 250+ pages dwindled to a measly 109. Same happened to Book 1. That book was pushing 400 pages, and it diminished to a small 250-320 pages, depending on file type.

Does this mean if my book were to have been traditionally published, it would have been a novel with these few pages? Honestly, when I think of ALL the editing I did to get it DOWN to 400 pages, I want to cry. Just wanted some input out of curiosity.

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Don't use number of pages as a guide to your length. Use word count. The page count will vary depending on the format, but the word count will stay the same.

What you seem to be asking is if your book is an average length, which I can't answer from page count. Generally speaking, most novels will range from about 60K to 120K words, but different genres have different expectations. Cozy mystery may well be at the shorter end. Epic fantasy at the longer end. And some novels are atypical lengths (SFWA considers any book down to 40K a novel, but you won't find a whole lot of 40K novels on the adult genre shelves).

I read epubs on my Sony e-reader, and what it considers a "page" must have more words than a page in a typical print book. Because pretty much all the books I read are <300 pages on my e-reader. If I get a book that is 400 pages on my e-reader, I consider it a really, really long book. Whereas 400 pages is a fairly typical length for a novel in print. When I'm reading print books, I usually read 60 pages a day, but more like 40 pages a day if I'm reading something on my e-reader. (Note: I don't know how it works for other file types and e-readers. This is just how it works on mine, and the number of pages is fixed for a given book...what it calls a page does not change if you change the font.)

Whimsical Writing said:

Does this mean if my book were to have been traditionally published, it would have been a novel with these few pages?

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So, umm, no. I doubt it. Don't think about a page in e-book form being the same as a page in print form.

Whimsical Writing said:

Thanks, Polenth. Yes, that's what I was aiming at. So you just take the actual word count Word gives you?

Everything I read at that time said that the manuscript had to be double spaced, Courier, 12pt. This would average 250 words per page, to estimate how many print pages it would take for the book. Was this information wrong? How do authors do it now (prep a manuscript for submissions). I'm just curious. I remember searching the web looking for info at that time and that's what I'd come across. It was just a shock that my hefty manuscript ended up having a much smaller number of pages in ebook form.

I'm going to post something similar to this, for print copies of my ebook.

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The advice to use standard manuscript format for submissions isn't wrong, but I'm not sure how you jumped from there to giving your novel length as a page count. One of the uses of standard manuscript format is to estimate word count (so you'd multiply the number of pages by 250 for this). This can be used to estimate print page count, because the 250xPageNumber figure takes into account how much space the words take up. But it's not a direct manuscript page = print page as this will vary depending on the print page size, spacing, font size, etc. This is the theory anyway. How many publishers still do this is another matter (but they still want standard manuscript format anyway, for other reasons).

Word processor word count is fine in most cases. I've been paid for shorts based on the word processor count, rather than 250xPageNumber. I've seen a lot of agents saying it's fine to use the word processor count. But you're not going to be rejected for using 250xPageNumber to get your word count, if you've got your heart set on it. Just don't use page count.

Note that I'm talking about submissions only. You wouldn't want to publish a novel in standard manuscript format.

The most accurate method to get your page count will be to download the template and paste your manuscript in.

I also think that my ereader's "pages" are longer than a "page" usually is in a dead tree book.

Actual page count in dead tree books are heavily dependent on things like margins, text size, line spacing, chapter breaks, etc. For example, in a lot of YA books, the margins/line spacing are bigger than in books for adults, so while they tend to have a lower word count the actual books on the shelves are pretty "adult sized" in terms of page count. So your page count is mostly a function of how your publisher thinks your books should be packaged.

If you have your novel in a wordprocessor and have a wordprocessor that can give you a word count (most of them do), then that's going to be the closest to your actual word count.

For my book, the ebook listed on Amazon was listed somewhere around the 200 page mark. Whereas my paperback (8x5.25) came out to 316 pages (including front and back matter). The manuscript came out to 75K words.

One of my writer friends' book was 74K and came out to 190 pages in print, but she used a 9x6 template. That's a huge difference, and it comes down to many factors. Book dimensions, average length of words, number of chapters (empty space for new chapters), among other things.

You can save page costs in print book and make a more readable book if you make careful choices with respect to typesetting.

Use the templates.

Print out a sample chapter—a complete chapter—and compare various typefaces, point sizes, and leading choices. If you're using Pages or InDesign or another application that supports tracking, use it.

Isn't all this discussion just sort of like penis length bragging? It doesn't matter how long the book is. What matters is how good it is.

LJD said:

I read epubs on my Sony e-reader, and what it considers a "page" must have more words than a page in a typical print book. ... (Note: I don't know how it works for other file types and e-readers. This is just how it works on mine, and the number of pages is fixed for a given book...what it calls a page does not change if you change the font.)

So, umm, no. I doubt it. Don't think about a page in e-book form being the same as a page in print form.

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Ok, I took the challenge.

I looked at a book I recently read on my Nook Glowlight from Barnes & Noble, which is a 6" e-ink reader similar in specs to a Kindle Paperwhite.


Book used for comparisons: Equal Rites by Terry Pratchett.

On my Nook, it has 171 pages. Page 1 is the cover. Page 171 is actually rather odd - it's a footnote referring to something earlier in the text, apparently, that I don't remember. Actual story text (including prologue) starts on page 5, and ends on page 162.

On the Barnes & Noble website, the book is available as

5 different paperbacks:

Hardcover, 3 styles

One listed as "other format", pub 03/2000 by Sagebrush Education Resources
pages: 240
dimensions: 4.48 (w) x 6.90 (h) x 0.89 (d)

~~~
Amazon has similar listings. Kindle ebook listed as 272 pages.
~~~

So what's to learn from all this copy/pasting? (Other than that I am avoiding any real work quite successfully )

Format is what determines pages length and can vary here and there. Word count is more accurate to determine story length.

Whimsical Writing said:

"Dead tree book"- I love this phrase, lol!

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I really dislike it. It's sneery and negative, and is often used to disparage trade publishing.

nealraisman said:

Isn't all this discussion just sort of like penis length bragging? It doesn't matter how long the book is. What matters is how good it is.

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If you're buying a print-run the extent of the book is significant.

Old Hack said:

If you're buying a print-run the extent of the book is significant.

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Even with ebooks, readers have opinions. Call a 10K book a novel and they won't be happy when they find out how short it is. Have a novel at 1000K and it might put people off because it's going to take a long time to read, and there's the worry that it's mostly padding. There's an expectation of certain lengths for certain descriptions, and certain prices being fair for certain lengths.

Readers aren't going to care about the difference between 80K and 90K, but they are going to care if it's unusually short or long.

nealraisman said:

Isn't all this discussion just sort of like penis length bragging? It doesn't matter how long the book is. What matters is how good it is.

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Charge 8.99 for a 15K novelette and you will soon learn that it ain't just the motion of the ocean.