[Publisher] The Novel Fox

Maryn · Sep 22, 2014

mommaareaux said:
Thank you for the replies, Maryn, I especially appreciate your honesty and taking the time to reply to my thoughts and fears. After ten years of building this novel, I now have two offers. Oh the irony! I spoke with the owner of The Novel Fox and he answered all of my questions, even the hard ones like, "How can you afford to pay these advances" and "Why haven't you published anything yet?" He was very honest, and even recognized that critics are skeptical because he is a new company with only one novel under their belt. Honestly, I was charmed by how forthcoming he was with me. He didn't try to persuade me by filling my head with glamorous lies. I think when you speak to someone and hear their voice and tone, you can get a good read for their character. I feel confident in moving forward with them. If I get burned, then I have learned a lesson and have a published book. If I do succeed then that's a blessing too. If someone knows something about this company that I don't, please come forward and help. Otherwise, I think I will take a chance on a up and coming publishing company.

It's a huge thread, but the owner of Tate Publishing apparently just charms the socks off people. He also charms a fair amount of money from hopeful authors who don't understand how the business of publishing works, when and how authors are to be paid, what rights they should keep, and more.

I'm not saying these people are like Mr. Tate. I'm saying charm, openness, likability, and seeming honesty do not a decent publisher make.

People far more knowledgeable than I have cautioned you against this publisher. Listen to them.

You tell us you've worked on this book for years, and if going with this publisher teaches you a lesson, you'll still have a book published. I don't see any way that's a win, not without indication they know something about editing and marketing, with no records of sales, questionable language on the website, etc. This book you've worked so very hard on for so long could easily sink into the mire of no sales except those you and your friends and family make, while the publisher keeps the rights so you can't even self-publish it, much less submit it to a publisher who can actually sell books.

There are legitimate small presses out there. I'd forget this one and keep looking. I'd hate to see you burned, even if you seem determined to be.

Maryn, whose kids accuse her of being overprotective

Hapax Legomenon · Sep 22, 2014

These guys keep popping up on my searches through the grinder. I might have to try them. As long as they're legit I don't think my heart will be broken if they go under with something of mine <3,000 words.

mommaareaux · Sep 22, 2014

Choices

Each one of you has replied with advice, suggestions, and very strong opinions. It seems I am still very confused. Yes, I want my book to be published, but regardless of how my last post sounded, I do not want to get "burned" by a publisher. Yes, I wish I had two literary agents offering me deals instead of small publishers, but this is what I was given.

I had an agent interested and asked me to give her more time to review my manuscript. This was the same time I was offered the two contracts by the publishing companies. when I explained my dilemma, she was kind and asked me stay clear of BRW, which I listened and did so. The NF she had never heard of, but has not replied back to me which I am accepting as a rejection.

As for your questions, here are a few answers:
First, I have been querying agents for over four years. I recently (last year or so) started querying small publishing companies because I heard some success stories.

Second, the editor of The Novel Fox is an attorney, who has created contracts for larger publishing companies and literary agents, so I was confident in his ability to create a reasonable contract.

So far, all I have heard is to stay away from this company because they are small and still creating a client list. Everyone starts somewhere, as a teacher, someone took a chance on me straight out of college. It would be unfair to judge a company because they are new, just the same as it is unfair to judge a person because they don't have ten years experience.

At this point, I am asking for your professional advice on what my next move should be. I value the comments given, that is why I am still on this page even though I have not received the information I would have liked. This momma just needs some good old fashioned truth and honesty.

Cathy C · Sep 22, 2014

Okay, here's what I would suggest. Tell the publisher you'd like your attorney to review the contract. Ask that they forward the offer, not just a boilerplate, for review. You can then forward it to an attorney who handles intellectual property. I'd be happy to glance at it and suggest questions to ask the attorney so you're not in a position of just tossing it at one and asking them to review it. Specific questions are always quicker to answer and so, less expensive. If the publisher, as an attorney, balks at sending it for another attorney to review--be concerned. That's the best advice I have at this point. They're still too new to have any background in how they'll work with you. :Shrug:

Marian Perera · Sep 22, 2014

mommaareaux said:
So far, all I have heard is to stay away from this company because they are small and still creating a client list.

Actually, I suggested reading about other presses where the founders were also charming, open and eager to help authors - to show why this has little if any impact on whether such a press will succeed.

Everyone starts somewhere, as a teacher, someone took a chance on me straight out of college.

If you graduated from an accredited college, had references and made a good impression on someone who had experience in your line of work, I wouldn't call this a chance - more of a calculated risk.

If the Novel Fox was staffed by people with publishing experience and had released professionally edited and produced books (as opposed to one book I couldn't even find on Amazon for pre-order even though it's supposed to be out next month), this might be a calculated risk too.

It would be unfair to judge a company because they are new, just the same as it is unfair to judge a person because they don't have ten years experience.

If I had to choose, say, a lawyer, I'd prefer one who had ten years' experience to one who hadn't sat for the bar exam yet.

But if you feel this is unfair, then yes, if I'm given a choice between being fair to startups and looking out for writers, I will look out for writers.

BenPanced · Sep 22, 2014

mommaareaux said:
I had an agent interested and asked me to give her more time to review my manuscript. This was the same time I was offered the two contracts by the publishing companies. when I explained my dilemma, she was kind and asked me stay clear of BRW, which I listened and did so. The NF she had never heard of, but has not replied back to me which I am accepting as a rejection.

How much more time have you given her? I'd wait until that has passed and then contact her once more to find out if she needs more time or if she has an answer on your manuscript.

victoriastrauss · Sep 22, 2014

I too would be happy to look at the contract and offer comments. I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen a lot of publishing contracts, good and bad, in my more than 15 years working with Writer Beware.

You can contact me at beware [at] sfwa.org.

It would be unfair to judge a company because they are new, just the same as it is unfair to judge a person because they don't have ten years experience.

It's the newness that's being judged here, not the company (which we don't know much about because it's been around for such a short time). "New" is a signal for caution regardless of any other factors, because small presses are such a risky enterprise and so many of them fail, despite the best efforts and intentions of the people involved.

- Victoria

Unimportant · Sep 23, 2014

mommaareaux said:
At this point, I am asking for your professional advice on what my next move should be. I value the comments given, that is why I am still on this page even though I have not received the information I would have liked. This momma just needs some good old fashioned truth and honesty.

My advice would be to ask yourself some hard questions, and answer yourself honestly.

1. What is the lowest level of 'success' you would settle for with this particular book? New York Times Bestseller List? Minimum earnings of $10,000 for this novel? Minimum earnings of $100? Holding a printed copy in your hands? Seeing your book stocked in Barnes and Noble? Everyone has their own definition of success. What's yours? Has this particular press demonstrated that they can achieve that level of success for at least some of the titles they publish?

2. Given that this press hasn't got much of a track record, extrapolate from other presses at this level (ebook only, POD, limited print run, or whatever TNF's business model is) that have succeeded. What has happened with the best books from the best small presses at this level/in this genre over the last decade or so? Would you be happy with that?

3. Given that this press hasn't got much of a track record, extrapolate from other presses at this level that have failed and crashed and burned. What has happened with books published by the worst small press at this level/in this genre over the last decade or so? Would you be able to live with that?

Editing to add: Only you know what is right for you and for this book. Some of us might take a punt if it were one of our trunked novels; others might not go near anything that's not a major press; others still would be happy with any press that pretty much guaranteed a free author's copy.

mommaareaux · Sep 23, 2014

Choices

I am still struggling with this choice. Obviously as a writer, my dream is to have my book published and it be something I am proud to show my children.
With that being said, it would be nice to make some type of profit off of sales, but I don't aim to be the next New York Times Best Seller either.
This road is difficult and trying at times, I wish there was a magic list of literary agents ready and eager to read a young adult novel, but unfortunately, that list does not exist.
Can anyone offer any specific on why they said to stay clear of Black Rose Writing? All I have heard is opinions, I like to rely on facts as well.
Again, thank you all for your time and help with this situation, your professionalism and willingness to help is amazing!

BenPanced · Sep 23, 2014

Agent Query and Query Tracker are two good places to start for agent information. They're pretty current so you can get good information on potential agents who might be interested in reading what you have. And here is an AW thread on Black Rose, including information on the hinky contract.

Filigree · Sep 23, 2014

mommaareaux said:
I am still struggling with this choice. Obviously as a writer, my dream is to have my book published and it be something I am proud to show my children.
With that being said, it would be nice to make some type of profit off of sales, but I don't aim to be the next New York Times Best Seller either.
This road is difficult and trying at times, I wish there was a magic list of literary agents ready and eager to read a young adult novel, but unfortunately, that list does not exist.
Can anyone offer any specific on why they said to stay clear of Black Rose Writing? All I have heard is opinions, I like to rely on facts as well.
Again, thank you all for your time and help with this situation, your professionalism and willingness to help is amazing!

That list does not exist yet, because you haven't researched and compiled it. There are a LOT of YA agents. Google 'Miss Snark's First Victim' blog, and look the list of agents who participate in her monthly and yearly contests - many of them rep YA. Check Publisher's Weekly, Agent Query, and QueryTracker. Find YA books you love and see who represents them. The information is probably out there, to help you. But it takes time to personalize an agent or publisher search.

Unimportant · Sep 23, 2014

mommaareaux said:
I wish there was a magic list of literary agents ready and eager to read a young adult novel, but unfortunately, that list does not exist.

That's because the list that would work for you would probably not be a useful list for most other people. Each author (and their books and their needs and their expectations) is unique. So each of us has to figure out what will be right/wrong for us as individuals. Fortunately, AW has a wealth of information available to the author willing to do their own homework.

And, of course, there are many agents eager and ready to read a well-written YA novel that lots of people will want to pay money for. But the sad truth is that 99% of the YA novels for which authors are seeking representation are not well written and/or are not commercially viable. The vast majority of us have to write our million words of crap before we produce something of publishable quality.

RunWrite · Sep 29, 2014

I submitted a YA manuscript to these folks. I've had 40 rejections and while I know writers hit pay dirt after 100 -- so the legend goes -- I've become discouraged and pretty much decided to abandon the project and work on another. So I figured there was little downside here. If they choose to publish my book and then go belly up and I get little return, I will at least have the publication that I can refer to in subsequent queries

I'm a lawyer, married to a lawyer, and any potential contract would get much scrutiny. I have to assume all publishers ask for an exclusive, the question is for how long.

In any event, several of us seem to have volunteered to be guinea pigs. I will report back.

Marian Perera · Sep 29, 2014

RunWrite said:
If they choose to publish my book and then go belly up and I get little return, I will at least have the publication that I can refer to in subsequent queries

Whether this will mean anything depends on who you're querying.

"My novel was released by Established Publisher" will carry weight with reputable agents and publishers.

"My novel was released by Startup Publisher" won't mean anything to reputable agents and publishers, especially if that startup is now out of business.

Incidentally, I just checked Amazon for Jacqueline Seewald's October release and it's still not available for pre-order.

kaitie · Sep 29, 2014

There is also sales history to consider. Once you've been published, you have a sales history, and any potential agent (or publisher) will want to know how many you sold. If you end up selling low, it can come back to bite you in the ass. Publishers might decide there isn't a market for your writing, or order fewer copies than they might otherwise. If a publishers is new and inexperienced with inadequate distribution, it can be very difficult to sell more than a handful of copies.

Sage · Sep 29, 2014

kaitie said:
There is also sales history to consider. Once you've been published, you have a sales history, and any potential agent (or publisher) will want to know how many you sold. If you end up selling low, it can come back to bite you in the ass. Publishers might decide there isn't a market for your writing, or order fewer copies than they might otherwise. If a publishers is new and inexperienced with inadequate distribution, it can be very difficult to sell more than a handful of copies.

I'm not sure the sales history will actually affect how agents and publishers expect you to sell if the reason behind the low sales is that you were will a small publisher that didn't market you enough. If they're looking at your sales history, they certainly know who you were published with, and so it's basically a non-credit. Agents and publishers are smart enough to figure that out. But a non-credit isn't going to get them to want you either, and no matter what, your next book has to be something they love and believe they can sell.

RunWrite · Sep 29, 2014

But I'm someone who hasn't gotten her foot in the door at all, so low sales is, I would think, better than no sales. Especially if my goal is just to have an agent request a manuscript. I think having that in the absence of connections, helps a lot.

I have had some success with personal essays, which have been published in a variety of magazines, newspapers and journals. (And, yes, I mention them in my query letter). I'm very close to chucking the whole project of writing novels and going back to my essay roots. So this is kind of a hail Mary pass. I'm not particularly concerned with my sales. Will I lose money? Get arrested? Suffer severe bodily injury? No? Then I'm not dissuaded.

It is troubling that the one book they've signed has not reached the light of day in any form.

Marian Perera · Sep 29, 2014

RunWrite said:
But I'm someone who hasn't gotten her foot in the door at all, so low sales is, I would think, better than no sales.

Depends. If you don't have any books released, you'll be a debut author. A good publisher could "discover" you and get some mileage out of your debut status; if you're a blank slate, anything is possible, including great sales in the future.

If you've already played the debut card with Novel Fox, though...

Having a foot in the door of some startup press that has no experience and no books released isn't, IMO, a useful strategy if you're hoping to get an agent to represent you. But if you want to go ahead, best of luck. Hope they'll be able to do more for your book than they've done (so far) for their first release.

amergina · Sep 29, 2014

RunWrite said:
But I'm someone who hasn't gotten her foot in the door at all, so low sales is, I would think, better than no sales. Especially if my goal is just to have an agent request a manuscript. I think having that in the absence of connections, helps a lot.

It's actually better to not be published than to be published poorly. It's not a death-knell, but agents pick up debut authors all the time. What agents are looking for is a well-written, compelling novel.

Have you had anyone critique your query letter? If you're not getting nibbles, it could be a problem with the query itself.

RunWrite said:
I have had some success with personal essays, which have been published in a variety of magazines, newspapers and journals. (And, yes, I mention them in my query letter). I'm very close to chucking the whole project of writing novels and going back to my essay roots. So this is kind of a hail Mary pass. I'm not particularly concerned with my sales. Will I lose money? Get arrested? Suffer severe bodily injury? No? Then I'm not dissuaded.

I mean, it's up to you. But getting published with a press no one has ever heard of isn't likely to gain you anything with an agent.

RunWrite said:
It is troubling that the one book they've signed has not reached the light of day in any form.

Yes. Yes it is troubling.

RunWrite · Sep 29, 2014

Ok, you are all very convincing. I'm not withdrawing my query letter but I am highly skeptical.

Maybe I should woman up and start submitting queries again.

Marian Perera · Sep 29, 2014

RunWrite said:
Ok, you are all very convincing. I'm not withdrawing my query letter but I am highly skeptical.

And there's nothing wrong with being skeptical.

If the Novel Fox is still around in two months, that should be long enough to see their typical cover art and read a sample from their first release. That's also good information to have before trusting them with a manuscript. Time is on your side here.

Maybe I should woman up and start submitting queries again.

Maybe. Or you could run your query letter/sample pages through beta readers/critiquers. Or you could self-publish, which IMO is better than going with a publisher that may not be on the ball. You have choices.

waylander · Sep 29, 2014

At least run your query letter through QLH

Cathy C · Sep 29, 2014

RunWrite said:
I'm a lawyer, married to a lawyer, and any potential contract would get much scrutiny. I have to assume all publishers ask for an exclusive, the question is for how long.

In any event, several of us seem to have volunteered to be guinea pigs. I will report back.

RunWrite, I've been published for about a decade. I'm going to speak to you as a law professional. I'm a career paralegal from Texas and have my TBLS in real estate contracts, and a specialty in intellectual property. Here's my best advice.

Go forth to the D.C. Bar and wander over to the Arts, Entertainment, Media and Sports Law Section. Buy the course on the latest section annual meeting and read/listen to it. What you will discover is that unless you're an IP attorney, the language will be completely foreign. I had 20 years background in contracts and the terms of art in the specialty completely changed the meanings of words that I absolutely thought I understood. It introduced new concepts of contracts that I'd never considered---because a contract can be LEGALLY BINDING but be a horrible contract for the area of practice simply because the terminology pulls from not only copyright law, but common law usage that totally alters what is acceptable in the industry. I know a lot of attorneys who are authors and they still prefer to let their agent negotiate because it's a careful dance among clauses.

I will tell you right now that the language this particular publisher puts on their website is absolutely legal but the result of application of the contract terms could bind you up in court for more years than you would care to envision.

Buy the CLE. Read it until you understand it, then ask a colleague if you have it right. It took three years of buying CLE until I grasped just how little I'd known about the industry.

Good luck! It's worth the time to learn the terminology. While I have an agent, and have learned a lot, I still hire the services of one of the best IP attorneys in the business to answer not just questions of contracts, but my duties and responsibilities as an author to comply with the terms of the contracts.

Cathy Clamp, PLS, ACP, CAEA, TBLS

Bubastes · Sep 29, 2014

RunWrite said:
So I figured there was little downside here. If they choose to publish my book and then go belly up and I get little return, I will at least have the publication that I can refer to in subsequent queries

No, the downside is you could lose the rights to your book or have them tied up indefinitely AND have virtually nothing to show for it. Are you willing to let go of your book that easily?

This is a great blog post on what could happen to your book if your publisher goes under and the steps you need to take to protect your rights:

http://carolynjewel.com/wordpress/2014/09/29/the-flush-pile-an-authors-perspective/

Also, to echo what Cathy C said, publishing contacts are a unique beast. I'm an IP attorney and I still want an agent to negotiate publishing contracts for me. There are too many moving parts and too many landmines and "what ifs," including many I know I'm not aware of. And I understand copyright law! What I've found, in my limited publishing experience, is that understanding the law isn't enough to protect yourself. Understanding the industry is just as, if not more, important.

mommaareaux · Oct 5, 2014

Novel Fox

So, I had several conversations with the creator of this company and he suggested making minor changes to the story line to make it more marketable. At first, I was skeptical but I heard him out anyways. After sending over a contract and then a revised synopsis, I became not only skeptical but convinced this was a scam. He promised in our original conversation that specific aspects of the storyline would remain the same. However, when I received the revised synopsis, it was no longer my book. I think this publishing company is trying to lure in writers with the promise of higher royalties. Please be advised, they have no known authors under their belt, and they are not truthful. I almost learned my lesson the hard way, I am glad I followed my gut instincts.

[Publisher] The Novel Fox

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