Tracking Amazon Kindle Top 100 Paid Ebook by genre[Big 5 Pub/ Amazon Pub/ small-medium Pub/self-pub]

Torgo said:

I'm sure everyone here is perfectly happy to acknowledge that the top-selling ebooks on Amazon sell a lot of copies, and that, at that level, people are making a living out of full-time writing, no matter how they are published.

Click to expand...

Kylabelle said:

Thank you, Torgo. Since these threads also tend to lose focus quickly, I wanted to emphasize your acknowledgement of Ava's point and concerns.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is appreciated.

JournoWriter said:

Why do you care so much about receiving this acknowledgement from people here at AW?

Click to expand...

Because in these kinds of threads, people here sometimes say that ebook success doesn't matter because of paper, or that self-publishing success in ebooks doesn't actually exist and that self-published books are bought by mostly other-self publishers.

I can tell when people say these things that they're not familiar with the romance and erotica self-publishing scenes.

My motivation: People wrong on internet. Also, why isn't even a strong possibility that SP authors are making significant inroads in ebooks exciting? It's authors doing well. [ETA: I'm not implying authors who go trade don't do well]. Is it due to the way these threads start? I'll guess yes.

Norman D Gutter said:

I think data ferreted out of the Amazon lists is worthwhile to look at, but should be understood to be nothing more than a snapshot—at least until someone puts a bunch of consecutive snapshots together and produces a movie of it.

Click to expand...

To be fair, people are doing just that.

authorearnings.com/

To everyone else: let's set aside the claims that site is making and just look at the data.


Re: publishers sharing data. Here's some from Hachette. Highlights: Amazon sells 78% of their ebooks in the UK and 60% in the US.

People are wrong on the Internet??!? Why didn't anyone tell me??

Ava Glass said:

My motivation: People wrong on internet.

Click to expand...

You must be very very very very very busy.

Ava Glass said:

Also, why isn't even a strong possibility that SP authors are making significant inroads in ebooks exciting? It's authors doing well.

Click to expand...

I don't really get why you expect it to be exciting. Good writers will make "inroads" into publishing venues whatever those venues are. When individual self published authors do well with an ebook or series, and say so here, they get all kinds of enthusiastic support. But trends are not inherently exciting, I suppose.

To insist that people should be excited and proceed to attempt to make it so becomes rather annoying, frankly.

Kylabelle said:

To insist that people should be excited and proceed to attempt to make it so becomes rather annoying, frankly.

Click to expand...

I'm disappointed you feel that way.

Ava Glass said:

My motivation: People wrong on internet. Also, why isn't even a strong possibility that SP authors are making significant inroads in ebooks exciting?

Click to expand...

Kylabelle said:

To insist that people should be excited and proceed to attempt to make it so becomes rather annoying, frankly.

Click to expand...

Ava Glass said:

I'm disappointed you feel that way.

Click to expand...

I am curious: since your "motivation" is to prove people "wrong," and to make them "excited" about the same things you find "exciting," if we just told you, you are "right," we are "wrong," and you have successfully made us all "excited" about the same things you are, would that satisfy you?

I've been in the Kindle top 50. I must be doing awesome. Oh wait, it was only for 2 days when my books were on sale. Then I dropped back down to 1000 three days later. These rankings are nothing but a snapshot of one type of book of one platform. They are mostly meaningless and are meant to feed an author's OCD.

Pure sales numbers are only a small portion of the real equation. Why don't we start showing W2s? Then we'll be onto something.

Has anyone kept count of every thread someone starts with list of Amazon numbers and vaguely anti-trade-publisher wording?

Ava Glass said:

My motivation: People wrong on internet. Also, why isn't even a strong possibility that SP authors are making significant inroads in ebooks exciting? It's authors doing well.

Click to expand...

First off: self publishing isn't always e-books and e-books aren't always self published. A sizable number of self published books are released in hard copy, so those numbers need to be considered in the data.

Second off: while Amazon controls a significant portion of the market, they are A portion of the book selling market. They are not THE market. If you want to show data on self publishing, you need to consider all outlets, such as Amazon, Lulu, Smashwords, Apple's iBookstore, Barnes & Noble, etc., and all available formats. Keeping a data set to such a narrow sample only skews the results to a flawed outcome.

BenPanced, what do you think I was trying to say in that bit you quoted?

ETA: Do people think I started this thread?

Ava Glass said:

ETA: Do people think I started this thread?

Click to expand...

No. Do you think the person who did start this thread will ever return and engage in meaningful discussion?

Ava Glass said:

Also, why isn't even a strong possibility that SP authors are making significant inroads in ebooks exciting? It's authors doing well. [ETA: I'm not implying authors who go trade don't do well]. Is it due to the way these threads start? I'll guess yes.

Click to expand...

Um...for me, it's because it's old news?

I have friends who have self-published for years. I have friends who have been nominated for Hugos with self-pubbed work. I've self-published. Probably half the authors I know self-publish, either as hybrids or exclusively.

It's not exciting any more than "Trade books continue to sell!" is exciting or "Sun to rise tomorrow!" is exciting. This has been going on for a number of years now. It's even been going on in romance and SF/F specifically.

"Self-pub continues to have viable market share in ebooks for some genres!" is frankly old news. Tell me something I haven't heard already, then maybe I'll be interested?

I think we need a form response for these threads. How about:

"You are so RIGHT! And we were so WRONG!

And we are so EXCITED about you being RIGHT!!!

Self-publishing is the FUTURE OF THE WORLD! Trade publishing DIED LAST WEEK!

Please forgive our ignorance O' Self-Publishing Gods!!!"


*lock thread*

RedWombat said:

Um...for me, it's because it's old news?

I have friends who have self-published for years. I have friends who have been nominated for Hugos with self-pubbed work. I've self-published. Probably half the authors I know self-publish, either as hybrids or exclusively.

It's not exciting any more than "Trade books continue to sell!" is exciting or "Sun to rise tomorrow!" is exciting. This has been going on for a number of years now. It's even been going on in romance and SF/F specifically.

"Self-pub continues to have viable market share in ebooks for some genres!" is frankly old news. Tell me something I haven't heard already, then maybe I'll be interested?

Click to expand...

This. QFT.

The fact that there are self-published titles that do quite well is, AFAICT, quite well-known and well-accepted at this point. Nobody's going to argue that.

Knowing that fact in isolation tells us nothing about whether a particular author or a particular project would be better off (in terms of sales or financial success) going the SP route versus querying. Absolutely nothing.

And yeah, I'm excited we have these choices. It's exciting! It's also, like RedWombat said, old news. So when people post threads that amount to, "Look how well some SPed books are selling!" it seems 1) odd, and 2) because of the context in which these posts often seem to come on de Internetz (since we don't talk in a vacuum and such), uncomfortably close to an attempt to set off what amergina was talking about --

amergina said:

What isn't exciting, on either end, is the us vs. them mentality.

I'm pretty tired of being told that I'm an idiot for the career choices I've made because I chose to go the trade published route.

Probably just as tired as the folks who are told their books are crap because they self publish.

I wish both sides would cut that shit out, you know?

Click to expand...

I'm not accusing the OP of that, mind (and I'd love it if s/he came back and talked to us about what s/he found so interesting about these numbers). But I can very easily see why such a post would make people think that was the intent, since many (most?) of us don't find such numbers particularly factually revelatory but have seen them trotted out in misleading, trade-pub-denigrating self-pub evangelism rants time and again.

And, like amergina, I'm so tired of that shit.

slhuang, by the way, I am eagerly awaiting a paper version of your book. Due to numerous life factors, I have no Kindle, nor indeed any other app or device for e book downloads and reading.

Thus, I miss out on some items, such as this particular book, with regret! And I'm just telling this detail as a personal note and not to make any point about the worth of Kindles, e books, self publishing, or any of that. You are all welcome to take it that I am just an old fuddy duddy.

amergina said:

It is. It's exciting when authors do well.

What isn't exciting, on either end, is the us vs. them mentality.

I'm pretty tired of being told that I'm an idiot for the career choices I've made because I chose to go the trade published route.

Probably just as tired as the folks who are told their books are crap because they self publish.

I wish both sides would cut that shit out, you know?

Click to expand...

I won't lie. I'm getting pretty fucking tired of it myself. Especially the sarcasm that seems to run rampant.

BenPanced said:

"Here are some numbers from Amazon and because they're numbers and they're from Amazon, they apply to everything outside of Amazon because Amazon."

Click to expand...

I prefer goat entrails. More reliable.

bearilou said:

I won't lie. I'm getting pretty fucking tired of it myself. Especially the sarcasm that seems to run rampant.

Click to expand...

I don't enjoy the sarcasm either, and I take it as a measure of people's frustration with the endless looping of this baseless conflict. Maybe letting off some steam will provide a little room for calmer more intelligent reflection. I hope so.

Having said that, I would appreciate if the sarcastic toss-offs would stop at this point. Let's try to add light with our words instead of just heat, okay?

If the only contribution you can find to make here is yet another sarcastic remark, please refrain from posting it.

Bibliomancy is almost as accurate as goat entrails, and offers considerably easier clean-up. And it may be as accurate as any public numbers released about Kindle ebook sales.

I don't like the us-against-them vibe I keep seeing from both sides of this dust-up. I know too many hybrid authors. I know midlist writers whose careers have been saved by self-publishing their backlists. I know other self-pub authors who have made deals with trade publishers, to gain stability and market support. I know Amazon is a major seller, but it's not the only one.

I can also tell the difference between genuinely interested/interesting posters and concern trolls. I come to AW for the camaraderie and the professional news. Threads like this tend to offer neither, after a while.

Ava Glass said:

My motivation: People wrong on internet. Also, why isn't even a strong possibility that SP authors are making significant inroads in ebooks exciting? It's authors doing well. [ETA: I'm not implying authors who go trade don't do well]. Is it due to the way these threads start? I'll guess yes].

Click to expand...

For me it isn't exciting for one reason, it's old news. And frankly if amazon is the only one being suveyed, then it isn't an accurate portrayal of how self-pub authors do in the general market. It's incomplete data and I can't get excited about incomplete data. Those kindle snapshots only look at ebook sales, what about paperbacks and hardcovers? How much of the self-pub market includes those, and how well are authors doing in those markets?

I love the idea of self publishing, the idea of freedom. But and this is a big but, the fanatics in the movement turn me off. Just like natural hair fantatics turn me off despite the fact I wear my hair natural and kinky-curly 90% of the time. It doesn't help that I know I personally couldn't hack it as a purely self pub author, I'm too lazy to do all my own marketting. I'm thinking of going the hybrid route once I've got a few things trade published. Provide myself with both a measure of stability and freedom.

Ultimately though it comes down to one thing, when these threads are posted here (and there's been a few since I've joined) the OP seems to have an air of "don't you feel foolish authors who went trad pub instead of the awesomeness that is self pubbing!" Yea, no. It's a career move, what someone wants to get out of their book. And it's harder work for the author who's serious about quality to make their stuff the same quality you would expect from a trade book. Copy editing, cover, marketting all have to be paid for or done by the author. That's to say nothing of formatting an ebook. A lot goes into those books not being reflected in those amazon snapshots. And a lot of time I find the people trying to make me feel bad for wanting to eventually go hybrid on the self pub side are more dogmatic and fanatical than those I've met who do hybrid publishing or go the trade publishing route. This has of course simply been my experience.

And there's the light we've been seeking. Thanks, Lillith and Phaeal.

For the OP, Ava, and any other self-pub cheerleaders around, this is a non-issue now, or it should be. Hybrid publishing should be as noncontroversial as recycling cereal boxes.

Kindle sales ranks track Kindle sales, without much apparent clarity. Getting on one of their bestselling lists can mean many sales, or not. I have a book that stayed in the top 50 of its Amazon subcategory for almost two months; but the highest overall rank it ever achieved was 13,500, and for that time period it sold around 250 ebook copies in Amazon.

Ava Glass said:

Re: publishers sharing data. Here's some from Hachette. Highlights: Amazon sells 78% of their ebooks in the UK and 60% in the US.

Click to expand...

Since my eyes just glazed over D), could you tell me which page that's on?

Does it say what % ebooks are of their total sales? I know they aren't a huge percentage of mine*, and having talked to a few other Orbit authors, they reckon their ebook sales could be as low as 5% of their total sales. 60% of 5% isn't very much tbh.

And the snapshot -- yeah. One day, ok for a few hours, I was higher than GRRM on the kindle store (yes I have a snapshot!) I don't for one nanosecond think it shows anything other than for an hour or two I sold a copy or two more than him on that format on that country's amazon. Probably because I was on sale. It's certainly no indicator of overall sales (or I would be rich, rich I tell thee) or overall success of a book.

The fact that there are self-published titles that do quite well is, AFAICT, quite well-known and well-accepted at this point. Nobody's going to argue that.

Click to expand...

Precisely. It not new news. But I look at the lists in the OP and think...well what other variables have we got? Price? Big backlist or debut? Other things I haven't thought of? (there will be loads probably)

TL;DR -- the original info is interesting, but not especially illuminating for many reasons (a lot of which have already been said). That isn't taking away from the success that many SPers have had. The lists just don't tell us anything we don't already know -- that SP can be a viable way to successfully publish if you have the right skills (Promo etc), but equally that trade publishing is also a good way (if like me you are crap at promo, or would rather just write the books and let someone else handle eveything else etc)



*I can't recall how many exactly, and I know I put that royalty statement around here somewhere...

Little Ming said:

I am curious: since your "motivation" is to prove people "wrong," and to make them "excited" about the same things you find "exciting," if we just told you, you are "right," we are "wrong," and you have successfully made us all "excited" about the same things you are, would that satisfy you?

Click to expand...

Little Ming said:

No. Do you think the person who did start this thread will ever return and engage in meaningful discussion?

Click to expand...

Little Ming said:

I think we need a form response for these threads. How about:

"You are so RIGHT! And we were so WRONG!

And we are so EXCITED about you being RIGHT!!!

Self-publishing is the FUTURE OF THE WORLD! Trade publishing DIED LAST WEEK!

Please forgive our ignorance O' Self-Publishing Gods!!!"


*lock thread*

Click to expand...

Let me be clear, while the sarcasm I laid on might have been a tad thick, my point still stands. For the sake of discussion, I'll be more plain.

I think Ava Glass has cut to the heart of these threads: "I am right, you are wrong, now feel the same way I do." It's not a discussion. Which is why the members who start these threads rarely ever return to engage in the conversation, or if they do it's to drop more links, with some vague "this is interesting" comment.

It's not interesting; it's fucking frustrating.

My views on self-, trade-, and even vanity publishing are clear all over these boards--you do whatever is best for you. So if you want to sign with HarperCollins, or publish your own book, or even if you think PublishAmerica is the best choice for your goals, good luck! I wish you all the best!

To use an analogy, because I like analogies, it's like telling a horror writer that romance sells really well. First, if you're a professional writer you already knew that, it's old news and fairly meaningless by this point. Further, the "why aren't you excited?" "isn't this interesting?" comments are damn frustrating. What the fuck do you expect the horror writer to do? Say he's "wrong" for writing horror, and that the romance writers are "right," and now he must change genres because AMAZON!

Seriously. If people don't understand why this "trade v. self" or really any "us v. them" faux "discussions" are so worthless, try inserting in different genres into the equation and you can see why it's so ridiculous. *

So let's cut to the chase: if all these threads are really about "People wrong on internet" I'm more than happy to say "You're right, I'm wrong. Now please leave me alone."


ETA: *Of course, there are also unproductive "us v. them" faux "discussions" in different genres too. Hm, I need a better analogy...

I see what this is about now.

People took my sentence "people wrong on the internet," and took it to mean something beyond these two points:

-people in these threads have said ebook success doesn't matter because of paper.

-people in these threads have said SP ebook success doesn't actually exist.


It was completely separate from the question about authors doing well. That was just a question, and some answered. Some said "yes." Others, said, "no not really."

Why do people keep attaching me to the OP?


ETA: Re: the Hachette info. I just posted that pdf in response to Torgo lamenting the lack of info from publishers. Seriously. Stop taking your frustration toward the OP and posters like him/her out on me.