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YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

Anna Magdalena

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I give up, Kevin. I feel like we're banging our heads against a brick wall, here. There's plenty of substance and concrete evidence here and links to follow that give facts and figures. We've answered all the points you've made and explained why we believe and write what we do. Will you please, please read carefully what people are actually writing here...and please stop mentioning Authonomy on this thread. Even one of the Mods has asked you to do so. There is a separate thread for Authonomy.

We've also discussed the matter of royalties and how all is not what it seems. We've discussed pricing. We've discussed Bufflehead Sisters. We've mentioned why people are unhappy.

Nobody at YWP replies to emails about cancellation or problems.

One author's books all had a green stripe across the cover. That has not been resolved.

I could go on. Just read what's been written and then come back and say we're unbalanced.

And how about answering some of the questions we've asked you? How many satisfied YWO authors do you know? Tell us their stories. You say you want balance. Provide us with your evidence.

Please.
 
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Kevin Crabbe

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My apologies Anna, above, I saw Authonomy mentioned a bit like below and thought it was a double-header topic. I don't think the post by old hack is a fair reflection on Authonomy was my only thought on it, it just seemed a not very positive comment and out on context about the site. And having read that thread I thought some of the commentators are wrong there when it's implied Authonomy's just a popularity contest of mutual voting. But as you say, that's for another thread apparently.

Meanwhile, you might want to revisit the Authonomy thread and re-read some of it: those three books you mention weren't picked up out of the slush as you imply: one was submitted by an agent in the usual way, and I believe that another was found through author promotion elsewhere.
 

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Kevin, if you want to develop a better understanding of why most of us here don't like YouWriteOn, I'd suggest you read through this whole thread and then visit my blog, How Publishing Really Works--there's a link in my signature--and click on the label for YouWriteOn, on the right hand side. Read through the comments, too. Then you might understand why we're not just agreeing with you here.
 

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Hi. New member so late to the party.

Is this the same Ted Smith who mounted a campaign via YWO to boycott Amazon?!

I found the site useful, got five good reviews and then a great piece of advice - submit to an agent. Did just that and got representation on the third try. Without the forums the heart has gone out of it and the mission statement no longer rings true.
 

gothicangel

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Hi Gunn; nice to meet you.

Yes, one in the same.

I got some great advice when posting my chapters in 2007. Congrats on the agent.

The other day I thought about reviewing some chapters; but I just couldn't do it. The heart has gone from YWO.
 

Momento Mori

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Hi, Kevin, and welcome to AW.

Kevin Crabbe:
After what seems to be about 2 month's YouWriteOn's got writers getting actual book signings and book stocked in big UK stores like Blackwells and Waterstones, with one saying they'd sold out of the book, and writers getting quotes for their books from people like Monty Python's Terry Jones and Chocolat writer Joanne Harris.

Actually YWO hasn't got their writers actual book signings and hasn't got their book stocked in big UK stores like Blackwells and Waterstones. The people who did that were the authors (and more power to them). However, as has already been pointed out by other posters here, authors may be able to get one or two individual stores in a national chain to stock their book, but they simply cannot get their book into all of the stores, which is what an author needs their publisher to do if they are to hit a critical mass of sales to make publishing that book profitable.

With regard to the one author who has sold out of their book, again, more power to them, but it means that if they sold out of their book it's because they had to buy X number of copies and sell them themselves, presumably (and this is only a guess) at a price more than what they paid for it in order to make a profit. Again, this is not a normal thing for an author to do - it is for the publisher to sell copies of books, usually by doing a print run.

Finally, with regard to the quotes from Terry Jones and Joanne Harris, that's a great thing and must be a wonderful boost to the authors concerned. However, if their book is not appearing on the shelves of book stores around the country, it's not going to make a significant difference to the number of sales they can hope to make.

Kevin Crabbe:
If you provide the balance about the good things they also achieve then you get taken more seriously but if you don't it can lead to a credibility problem

Everyone involved with YWO, including Ted Smith, has had the opportunity to comment here and put their side of the story. Unfortunately, Ted chose not to answer some of the more difficult criticisms (that may be because he has no answer for the criticisms, but I would not like to speculate). Other commentators who were initially pro the YWO publishing offer have since discovered that far from making them money, it's costing them money (often money that they don't have) and with little hope of making any real return on it.

Kevin Crabbe:
Come on you guys, it shouldn't be Absolute Write versus other writers sites!

It isn't.

I'm a member of several other writer's boards and what I find you get on AW that you don't perhaps get elsewhere is a concentration of people who actually know how the industry is supposed to operate and who are therefore prepared to ask serious questions about self-publishing ventures and the pros and cons.

You will find many people here who will point to legitimate self-publishing companies as being a good port of call for writers working in particular niche areas (such as poetry) or who have a very limited set of objectives that they want to achieve from their writing.

I don't think that anyone here has or indeed had any serious issues with the message board element of YWO or the critique service (although it has been pointed out repeatedly that it's offering little a writer could otherwise get by joining a decent critique group and going down the query route). The issue is with the message boards (which are Arts Council funded and therefore in receipt of public money) being used to promote a self-publishing venture that is more likely to realise a profit for YWO and Legend Press than it is the authors concerned. That is what I find particularly insidious and indefensible about it and I'm sure a number of other Brits here feel the same way.

Kevin Crabbe:
I think some of the posters need to look a bit deeper for more balance here or it will eat away at your credibility.

If I have an opinion and I can support my opinion with evidence, then I think my credibility remains intact. If people who have differing opinions have the opportunity to post here stating their views and their supporting evidence, then their credibility remains intact. Either way, AW retains its ability to provide a message board giving each side their say.

Your problem appears to be that there aren't enough people here saying that YWO's self-publishing venture might not be that bad for authors. I don't agree with you. There are a lot of other people here who don't agree with you. And we've all set out our reasons for that.

Even people who originally thought it was a good thing and said so here are now coming back to report on the problems. I'm sorry that doesn't meet some kind of 50-50 even-handed rule of making comments that you'd prefer to see, but it doesn't change the reality.

Kevin Crabbe:
Take a look at Authonomy and writers are doing well and take a look at YouWriteOn's publishing update and writers are doing really well too.

Define "doing well". If you mean in terms of having achieved commercial publishing deals, then the figures are about the same as what you'd see in a normal slush pile and as yet, I don't think either site has benefited a total number of people represented by double digits. In Authonomy's case, some of the authors who have been picked up, were picked up because they already had agents or through separate submissions, rather than through their participation in Authonomy.

With YWO, I believe that only 1 author who self-published with YWO got a commercial deal. That's 1 author out of what, several thousand? That's not a great success rate, however you look at it.

Kevin Crabbe:
I imagine those writers must be really pleased to be in bookshops and isn't any extra reader reached a good one?

Except that it's not an author's job to have to arrange for books to store their books or sell their book to readers. It's the publishers. I don't deny that every YWO who gets a store to stock their book must feel a sense of achievement, but the terms are likely to be onerous and cost them money in the long run.

Kevin Crabbe:
Yes, it's more, but for an often very isolated vocation it's a very important one if writers feel encouraged, wouldn't you say?

Define "encouraged". There's a difference between genuinely helping someone to improve their writing and keep them motivated to do so and patting them on the head for showing some effort while simultaneously lightening their wallet.

What really irritates me about the YWO self-publishing venture is that there are more than likely some excellent writers who have been caught up in it and who, with a little more persistence and attention to craft, could have got a commercial publishing deal. However, they've now lost their first publication rights to YWO (and regardless of what YWO says about giving a release, those rights are kaput from the moment of publication) and face an uphill struggle of having to (a) get a commercial publisher to notice them by (b) hitting the kind of sales figures that suggest there could be a market or (c) getting the right editor at the right house to look at it and take a shot, either way they will probably have to spend money in order to do so.

MM
 

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According to Mr Crabbe's profile he was online here until 11.20 last night.

If Kevin Crabbe shares an IP address with Ted Smith, then he shares a computer with him. Whoever he is, he could have spent that time getting the YouWriteOn message board back online, instead of posting here. Or sorting out some of the many problems which still remain with so many of YouWriteOn's authors' books. Or clarifying the situation with the publishing scheme.

At least Ted sorted out that Yi/Nii problem with the Knights, though. That was time well-spent. I suppose.


And Victoria, thank you for that thank you! Sadly, a lot of the information I've linked to came from unhappy YouWriteOn writers, so I can't take credit for it all; and the rest was incredibly easy to find. I wonder what I could find out if I REALLY poked around?
 
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Kevin Crabbe

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According to Mr Crabbe's profile he was online here until 11.20 last night.

If Kevin Crabbe shares an IP address with Ted Smith, then he shares a computer with him.

Yes I'm someone who's a YouWriteOn member and someone's who volunteered to help out. That doesn't necessarily take away from the points I have to make as I've seen how hard they are working on the project at first hand. For example, I understand you joined YouWriteOn under a different user name and it took several weeks for you to admit you were also a member of Absolute Write.

I still think there needs to be balance here. My example is I'd still say yes I was disatisfied first at the delay when I put in a book at the end of October 31st, but it was published in mid-Jan and I am happy with the result. If I hadn't been I myself would still be unhappy.

But I still think that there is not a balance here about published writers. For example would it not be fair to say that there are some writers who are happy with the books from the following pictures from YouWriteOn. And yes I have been given permission to post. And yes I am volunteering as I'd like to get publishing experience to work with a site like YouWriteOn or a site like Authonomy with Harper Collins. If you like to criticise me for that please feel free.

There's been talk about the production quality of books not being good on YouWriteOn but doesn't this indicate otherwise as a discussion point and that writers shouldn't be knocked for achieving things?

YouWriteOn Author News page:

YouWriteOn author Bob Adams book sells out at Blackwells, Edinburgh

"I am the Events Coordinator here at Blackwell Bookshop Edinburgh. We recently hosted an event for Bob Adams, which was very successful. So successful that we sold out completely of all the books that Bob had supplied us with."

An experienced agent has been captured and faces the grim prospect of interrogation. British Intelligence must prevent this at all costs.


YouWriteOn author Bob Adams book sells out at Blackwells, Edinburgh

"I am the Events Coordinator here at Blackwell Bookshop Edinburgh. We recently hosted an event for Bob Adams, which was very successful. So successful that we sold out completely of all the books that Bob had supplied us with."

An experienced agent has been captured and faces the grim prospect of interrogation. British Intelligence must prevent this at all costs.


The Chronicles of Joya by Liane Carter. Book signing at BookWorld Haberneras on 20th December 2008. Book received by YouWriteOn during October 2008. View more pictures of the bookstore signing on the link below.

View More Book Signing Pictures

When I first received my copy of THE CHRONICLES OF JOYA I was overjoyed at the quality. Friends and family who first received copies were all blown away by the cover. I have the approval from the buyer of a book chain to contact two more of their stores to do book signings .. Also another book chain are interested in stocking the book. They are huge in Spain (very exciting!)

 
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Finchlark

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Kevin,
It's easy for you to be positive when you have been "chosen" and published. You won't find many positive comments from those who were let down so badly.

It was clear books were being "cherry-picked" for those that had large orders. As it happens, I cancelled my contract, self-published, and am now on my fourth print run.

If YWO is so good, why has everyone been effectively gagged by not being able to communicate? If you are volunteering there you should be able to answer that one.
 

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Don't worry, "Kevin", I'm sure that a moderator will be along soon to snip out all of those images which you've been asked before not to post.

Yes I'm someone who's a YouWriteOn member and someone's who volunteered to help out. That doesn't necessarily take away from the points I have to make as I've seen how hard they are working on the project at first hand.

You were online at that same IP address until 11.20 last night. You must be very dedicated to your volunteer work to stay so late at your desk. And if you WERE that dedicated, then wouldn't your time have been better spent correcting some of the errors that still proliferate in YouWriteOn's Amazon listings? Or downloading the books which still remain in your queue of things to be published? Or even getting that message board online? You know, the one that YouWriteOn claimed was offline because it was being updated, but which has now been confirmed by Zarr, YouWriteOn's web company, is not being updated at all and is offline because YouWriteOn is too busy to deal with it right now?

For example, I understand you joined YouWriteOn under a different user name and it took several weeks for you to admit you were also a member of Absolute Write.

That's not true, "Kevin". I joined YouWriteOn with the user-name "HPRW", an abbreviation of my blog's name, as I correctly assumed that more of its members would know me from that blog than from my posts here. I've been quite open here, on my blog, AND at YouWriteOn about who I am. It seems to me you're trying to make trouble here, when your time would be better occupied sorting out all of the problems which already exists over at YouWriteOn.

I still think there needs to be balance here.

There is: people put forward their viewpoints and the evidence that they have. Other people dispute those views, and put up their own evidence. Eventually, the truth appears. It's called debate. If you think there's no balance then provide it--along with the evidence to back up your claims.

My example is I'd still say yes I was disatisfied first at the delay when I put in a book at the end of October 31st, but it was published in mid-Jan and I am happy with the result. If I hadn't been I myself would still be unhappy.

I'm glad you're happy. Really. And I wish you the best of success with your book. How are sales so far? How many copies have you sold? And why not provide us a link to your title? Someone might like to check it out.

But I still think that there is not a balance here about published writers. For example would it not be fair to say that there are some writers who are happy with the books from the following pictures from YouWriteOn. And yes I have been given permission to post.

Anyone's welcome to comment about their experience of publishing with YouWriteOn, anyone at all. And yet pretty much all of the people we've heard from here (and on my blog, and many of the emails I've received on the subject) are from people who are not happy at all. We don't canvas people to come and comment here: they turn up all on their own. That they're mostly extremely unhappy is representative of the comments I've been sent about the scheme.

And while I'm glad that you've got permission to post those pictures from YouWriteOn I have to ask: has YouWriteOn got permission to post them there?

And yes I am volunteering as I'd like to get publishing experience to work with a site like YouWriteOn or a site like Authonomy with Harper Collins. If you like to criticise me for that please feel free.

"Kevin", your experience working with YouWriteOn is not going to be worth diddly when you start to apply for work at reputable publishing houses.

There's been talk about the production quality of books not being good on YouWriteOn but doesn't this indicate otherwise as a discussion point and that writers shouldn't be knocked for achieving things?

Sorry, I'm not quite clear what you meant there. Were you saying that problems with the books' quality has nothing to do with the authors' achievement at being published by YouWriteOn? I'll assume that's the case.

The production quality is one thing: it shows that there were many errors in the downloads that were made, many of which have only come to light since writers have bought their own books (which is what vanity publishers get their authors to do, not reputable publishers).

As for the authors' achievement in getting published by YouWriteOn: with all due respect to those authors, all they've really achieved is the successful emailing of their manuscript to YouWriteOn. Because there was no quality control, no editorial filtering, no search for talent or ability or integrity: just a first-come, first-served submissions free-for-all. It's great that they wrote their books--that's an achievement in itself. But sadly publication by YouWriteOn doesn't mean that their books are good, bad or indifferent, just that they sent the right email to the right address--with the right payment option taken.
 

Kevin Crabbe

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Kevin,
It's easy for you to be positive when you have been "chosen" and published. You won't find many positive comments from those who were let down so badly.

It was clear books were being "cherry-picked" for those that had large orders. As it happens, I cancelled my contract, self-published, and am now on my fourth print run.

If YWO is so good, why has everyone been effectively gagged by not being able to communicate? If you are volunteering there you should be able to answer that one.

Hi Finchlark, I am glad you are doing well with your book. I am doing voluntary work on the message board. It's got some new ideas coming in to try to help those who have self published. So it will reopen in early March is the plan and comments will continue.

I am not privy to the ins and outs of the publishing process but I would argue though that for 'cherry picking' you could equally substitute prioritising. I mean the guy below from their publishing update is an example as Ted told me the author said early on he had a book signing and when told they tried to do what they could to meet their deadlines. I mean would it not be the case that it would be argued by a writer like this that YouWriteOn had let them down if they hadn't tried to meet the writer's deadline like they had? It's a kind of damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.

More Deaths Than One by Bryan Islip. Book Received by YouWriteOn October 2008, bookstore signing in December 2008. Synopsis Ex Special Forces businessman Thomas Thornton has settled down to expatriated family life in Saudi Arabia. He is wrongfully caught up in shariah law on drugs dealing charges. He extricates and eventually exonorates himself, only to find that he's deeply implicated in a far more universal situation.
more%20deaths%20than%20one%20smaller.jpg


more%20deaths%20signing.jpg

 

Anna Magdalena

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This is getting ridiculous. Kevin Crabbe has an agenda to promote YWO. He's 'volunteered' to help out, so he says. And he uses the same PC as YouWriteOn uses. How is he helping out? Is he helping out unhappy YWO authors? No. He's telling us how wonderful YWO is.

None of us have ever disputed that there are some authors who are happy with what they've got. Good for them. But that doesn't tell one tenth of the story.

How about answering the questions he's been asked instead of repeating himself and posting huge chunks of YWO's web pages here? His credibility has gone up in flames and still he continues. If he's not Ted or Tom then I feel sorry for him because he's been sucked in. And if YWO is a good deal why is he also posting his novel up on Authomony? If he is. And why if he's so entranced with PA, he didn't publish with them? None of this makes any sense. At least, not in the real world.

Instead of attacking people, why not address what the ask? They only want answers to perfectly legitimate questions.
 
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Old Hack

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Ooops, sorry--double post: horrible dial-up.
 

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Hi Finchlark, I am glad you are doing well with your book. I am doing voluntary work on the message board. It's got some new ideas coming in to try to help those who have self published. So it will reopen in early March is the plan and comments will continue.

This message board updating seems to be taking a remarkably long time, "Kevin": if it isn't going to be online until March, it will have been down for two and a half months. You could write a whole new one in that time.

It would be helpful if a decent explanation were to appear on YouWriteOn's front page.

And I'm interested to know how your "voluntary work on the message board" squares with the information I got from Zarr yesterday (for the benefit of newcomers Zarr, as you must know, designed and maintains YouWriteOn's website, including the forum): they told me, quite categorically, that THERE IS NO UPDATE TAKING PLACE AT ALL. And that YouWriteOn took the forum down so that they wouldn't have to spend their time policing it.
 

qwerty

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I am doing voluntary work on the message board. It's got some new ideas coming in to try to help those who have self published.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that message board - the whole site, even - paid for by public money for the purpose of a peer reviewing scheme approved by the Arts Council?
 
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Old Hack

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Anna, I don't think "Kevin" is Mr Islip--I thought he was just showing that book as an example of YouWriteOn's great success as a publisher.

Let us consider "Kevin's" experience: first he worked for PublishAmerica (and yet still doesn't realise that PA's name doesn't have a space in the middle); now he's working for YouWriteOn (he manages to space that one correctly, though). I wonder who he uses as his referees: Bobby Fletcher?
 

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Hi Finchlark, I am glad you are doing well with your book. I am doing voluntary work on the message board. It's got some new ideas coming in to try to help those who have self published. So it will reopen in early March is the plan and comments will continue.

I am not privy to the ins and outs of the publishing process but I would argue though that for 'cherry picking' you could equally substitute prioritising. I mean the guy below from their publishing update is an example as Ted told me the author said early on he had a book signing and when told they tried to do what they could to meet their deadlines. I mean would it not be the case that it would be argued by a writer like this that YouWriteOn had let them down if they hadn't tried to meet the writer's deadline like they had? It's a kind of damned if you do damned if you don't scenario.

More Deaths Than One by Bryan Islip. Book Received by YouWriteOn October 2008, bookstore signing in December 2008. Synopsis Ex Special Forces businessman Thomas Thornton has settled down to expatriated family life in Saudi Arabia. He is wrongfully caught up in shariah law on drugs dealing charges. He extricates and eventually exonorates himself, only to find that he's deeply implicated in a far more universal situation.
more%20deaths%20than%20one%20smaller.jpg


more%20deaths%20signing.jpg


Sorry, Kevin, that doesn't hold up because not only did I have a book signing organised, also tv and newspaper interviews. The book was about the history of an old priory and the book launch was meant to tie in with an important event at the priory. My emails to Ted to advise him of that remained unanswered and it was only because of Lulu that I got the book in time, otherwise I would have looked very unprofessional. So I say again, YWO let me down big time.
 

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Yes I'm someone who's a YouWriteOn member and someone's who volunteered to help out. That doesn't necessarily take away from the points I have to make as I've seen how hard they are working on the project at first hand.
(My bold)

As I see it, the points you have been making are mostly about the publishing project. Is this the project you/they are working on right now?

Can you tell us what work is being done on the actual YWO scheme the Arts Council funded?
 

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Out of interest Kevin - are you a YWO member? have you published with them?

Yes and a volunteer. Well done on your news. I understand you are a member too from the news I saw on site about your Times Chicken award. You must be chuffed.

In answer to some of the questions above I understand Ted has funded a lot of the site himself since the site began as Arts Council projects have too. This includes towards paid critiques and over 4 figure hosting charges.

And about the publishing, sure I can see people had problems with the publishing, I did too but am happy now I am published.

Probably not known though is the funding situation. This is why I think there should be some balance. The Arts Council has been funding YouWriteOn beyond the normal length of time projects like this get funded because it was doing well. But it was expected that he introduce a self funding avenue like all their projects. So there wasn't much alternative, and he chose to do it with publishing and in my opinion some decent aims like lower priced books and better royalties than on sites like Lulu. He had three months to fill the funding gap to do this and keep the site going.

If anyone thinks he shouldn't have tried and should have just closed the site on the community and not tried to keep it going then that's fine, it's their opinion, but he tried to keep it going through publishing. That was the actual choice, 3 months or decide to let down a community of thousands and close. And now he has kept the site going and the publisher profits raised means the site can continue. He's paying for it all from April.

I may seem biased, and I am, I lost my job recently and I am trying to get back into publishing. Here, or Harper Collins or other, I'm trying like a lot of people. But that doesn't mean that just because I have an interest there shouldn't be balance and the facts known. I am also on Authonomy and have sent my CV there and so naturally I support something too like this and YWO if I think I might get a job.