• Guest please check The Index before starting a thread.

YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
6,704
Reaction score
1,314
Location
Far from the madding crowd
Website
www.victoriastrauss.com
They could publish elsewhere even with an ISBN number, because the YWO contract is nonexclusive. Whether another publisher would want an already-published book, ISBNless or not, is another question. But they could self-publish.

- Victoria
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Matt, if your book has already been published your first rights have gone, regardless of whether or not your book has an ISBN assigned to it. So that's that. The only good point is that in the UK publishers aren't quite so worried about that as they seem to be in the USA. It's still an issue: but not quite such a big one.
 

qwerty

exiled Brit
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 9, 2007
Messages
1,076
Reaction score
222
Location
Burgundy
But as has been pointed out a zillion times already, referring to an ISBN number as a "distribution service" is inaccurate and misleading, and they should know better than to do that.

I'm confused now by the sentence contained in the email from Legend that Finchlark posted (post#598) which says:

" or alternatively you can sign up to the distribution service through Lightning Source".

Does anyone know if LS do distribution? And if so, what they charge for that service.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Here's a link to Lightning Source's UK website.

I don't have an account with Lightning Source but, as I understand it, you can add an ISBN to your book at any time. But LS doesn't do any distribution apart from posting books to people as orders are placed--which is very far from the usual meaning of the term.
 

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
I've been forwarded this email from a friend who has published from YWO (and already has bought an ISBN)

Dear Writer
As an addition to previous email with an update on your book's production, and for your information, I just wanted to provide details of the ordering system for once your book is complete. As it stands, for those without the distribution service, it will only be available for purchase by the author from us (info on how to order is sent once your book is available) – although we are currently working with YWO to introduce an automated service allowing orders for all via the site. Details in due course.

Therefore, you have the option of purchasing and selling yourself, if you wish, (one author so far has already bought up to 1,000 to sell using this approach) or alternatively you can sign up to the distribution service through Lightning Source, which will mean your book being available via the online sites of all the major booksellers – Amazon, WHSmith, Waterstone's, Barnes and Noble etc.

For the distribution service there is a cost of £39.99 and if you would like to sign your book up, just email to this address with the subject line 'DISTRIBUTION REQUEST' and include the details of your book in the email.
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
2,195
Reaction score
271
Location
At the computer
Wow, YWO wants you to pay for something a real publisher does as a standard - without charging you.

It couldn't be more obvious that it's vanity with that email. I feel bad about that author who apparently bought 1000 copies of his/her book, if it is indeed true. I can't see all of them selling unless the person forks out a ton more money with a publicist.
 

gothicangel

Toughen up.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
7,907
Reaction score
691
Location
North of the Wall
Probably has!

Life has been erratic lately and I probably haven't absorbed what is going on properly!

Couldn't they bother being a bit more personal than 'dear writer?'.

Option a: give us money so you can sell a few copies out of the back of your car; the rest will rot in your loft space.

Option b: Give us money and your book can drift in literary limbo that is amazon.
 

M.R.J. Le Blanc

aka Sadistic Mistress Mi-chan
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
2,195
Reaction score
271
Location
At the computer
Option a: give us money so you can sell a few copies out of the back of your car; the rest will rot in your loft space.

Option b: Give us money and your book can drift in literary limbo that is amazon.

I'd rather be unpublished.
 

RandomNotes

Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
29
Reaction score
1
Just a little update on the situation from my own personal point of view as a writer published by YWO.

I paid for the ISBN and of course it has appeared all over the Amazon universe and in a few places that affiliate with Amazon. Barnes and Noble also stock it in the US, but up to this weekend, no UK online retailer (other than Amazon and affiliates) has stocked it.

I've been moaning at Ted about this and although Ted has not been communicating with me, it does appear as though he is doing something (in snail like manner) with Gardners and the such like. As of today I noticed that WHSmith online section is stocking 182 books published by YouWriteOn.com.

http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/SearchWithinCategory.aspx?as_Publisher=YouWriteOn.com&cat=%5cBooks
Most of these books do not have an image for the cover, which would seem to indicate that the addition to the WH Smith Website was recent. My book is sadly not yet listed, but I am hoping that it will eventually appear, as it has done on other sites.

It is now available via Blackwells Online site:

http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/search_results.jsp?wcp=1&quicksearch=1&cntType=&searchType=keywords&searchData=978-1849239936&x=30&y=7


It's progress, but slow.

My own book has been selling well and generating good feedback. People actually write and tell me how much they enjoy reading it. One bloke, who I really wouldn't put down as the worlds biggest book reader says he was so sucked in, he has almost finished it. A woman who received it through the post said she read the first chapter standing in her kitchen - apparently she opened the parcel there, took a peek at the prologue, then got sucked into chapter 1. She stopped because otherwise she would have missed her bus...

So, it appears that the book is being enjoyed, that those who read it are impressed, and that by word of mouth it is selling more. One of my readers is going to recommend it to a book group, which means 20 more copies sold if my book gets the vote (the group votes for which book they want to read next).

A local newspaper has (somehow) found out about it and asked if they can see a copy, no promises of course, but they were interested in the local writer angle.

Stephen Spielberg has not as yet phoned me and asked about the film rights, but I live in hope, although perhaps I am best not holding my breath ;)

After all that, could I recommend YWO?

Probably not... Oh okay, if you went in with your eyes open and knew all the pit falls I might just say okay why not give it a go. I might...

The reasons for that gruding "perhaps" would be that you will get your book out there, it will only cost you 39.99 for the ISBN (if you want one, otherwise it is free) and you can get your Word Document converted to a book friendly format for free and you get a book cover, for free, or you can design your own and they will add that to the book for free.

You will end up with a book that is cheaper to buy than from Lulu and cheaper to setup than Lulu.

My book from YWO with my author discount is 5.99.
Same book (ie page count) on Lulu is 7.40.

I haven’t included the setup fees, but either way, its not going to be a massive saving going with YWO, but there you go.

Drawbacks?

PDF:

Some people saw problems with the way their word document was converted to PDF by YWO. So if you cannot convert to PDF yourself, you will live on your nerves until you see a final copy of the book.

If you published with Lulu, you would have the power to download a copy of the book and check it on your computer, or buy a "test" copy of the book before it is available for distribution.

ART WORK AND COVERS:

The Art work for the covers is so-so. My cover is okay, my readers say it's cool, they like it (note they don't LOVE it) and I myself am "okay" with it. I don't love it; I'm just okay with it.

With Lulu and others you can upload your own artwork and the site will tell you straight away if there is a problem! Nice. You can correct it, you can make sure it looks cool before distribution occurs. You have more control.

PRICING:

The big problem for me is the retail pricing set by YWO.

YWO set the retail price themselves, which means you have no control over what profit margin you did or did not want to make.

If you are selling a fiction book for a retail of say 7.99, then that's probably not a problem, but if you are selling a "How to get rich by doing XYZ" then you would probably want to set the retail price much higher (probably way up there in 49.99 level – I am talking pounds by the way), then be able to offer it at seminars at a reduced rate.

If you publish with Lulu or others, you would have this control. You could set your retail rate to your hearts content!


So, YWO = cheaper (in most writers cases) but communication with Ted at YWO is piss poor, if you don’t hit technical problems, you are laughing, if not, you will need another bottle of that Prozac to get you through the month! Retail price will be out of your hands and the author discount isn’t going to be enough to combat this, but you will see your book distributed through all book channels, including some of the more conventional ones.

Lulu = More control over pretty much everything, but will be slightly dearer (possibly more so for UK users watching sterling slide to new depths). Communication with Lulu seems sketchy, but better than YWO - like it could be worse! You can check your work, set your retail price, live a life of full control, but you will be paying more per unit for the book (fact) than YWO and the setup costs maybe more depending on where in the world you live.




That is I think a fair analysis of the YWO debate. I still don't believe that it is vanity publishing and I still believe that it is self publishing. Please don't flame me on this, it's my opinion, I am entitled to it and I am unlikely to change it even after all I have been through, so please don’t bother trying to change my mind and I won’t bother to change yours. It’s a free world. Let’s enjoy it as such.

For me at least, the joy has been in hearing how much people enjoy my book and that they will recommend it to others. I have written non-fiction, been published, attended events where people have told me how much help my books are, but hearing someone say "when character X did such and such... It surprised me, but I loved it" is so much more special.

It's my first novel. I am pleased it is out there in the world. It has installed some faith in my writing, faith that was ebbing away after so many publisher rejections. So many shortlists and so many disappointments. It has given me the faith to write more.

Whatever anyone thinks of YWO, including myself, this is worth more than anything at all. It's certainly worth more than 39.99 and it helps ease the stress caused by the hiccup launch... Hiccups that are by far cured, but at least they are getting fewer Hiccs between the Ups!

All my love to you all

Paul
 
Last edited:

Anna Magdalena

Your friendly cynic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
235
Reaction score
53
Location
Yorkshire.
Website
theelephantinthewritingroom.blogspot.com
Paul. I am on your side, I really am--I'm a writer, after all--but it grieves me that the service you're getting from YWO was shoddy and remains shoddy, to say the least. You are not alone. Too many writers are led to believe that outfits like YWO are on the side of writers.

I won't argue with you over the self-publishing/vanity debate because, as you say your mind is made up, but actually self-publishing means you do it all yourself. You are the publisher. You retain all rights. So this isn't. But there you go...

This is how it should be done. My first novel was accepted by a small, independent, but traditional publisher (after the usual raft of rejections) and I haven't got an agent. I was paid an advance--not a lot but very nice, thank you. I signed a proper industry-standard contract so I will get royalties in the standard way. My cover is designed by a professional design company and looks fab. And I had a hand in the final decision. The publisher uses one of the big distributors and wholesalers here and in the USA. The publisher's titles are on display and sold in bookshops. (Every book with an ISBN will be listed on all the usual websites. It means nothing.)

My novel was accepted early last year. Publication is in April this year. (In other words it's being done properly--no rush job here.) I am currently working through my editor's corrections to my manuscript. They are detailed, meticulous and thorough and the publisher speaks to me as an individual, not 'dear writer'. (He took me out to lunch and very nice it was, too!) I have a publicist on hand who will swing into action when she gets the proof copies. My novel is already in the publisher's new titles catalogue which will be seen by all leading retail book buyers. The publisher has read my novel and likes it enough to want to publish it. That's a real ego-boost. Has your publisher actually read your book, Paul?

And what have I shelled out for all this? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. And remember, I am also in receipt of an advance.

I agree it's gratifying to have a handful of people say they love what we've written but it's a shame that some writers are happy to accept the third-rate from the likes of YWO which claims (quite wrongly) to be giving them the best and being on their side when they could do so much better.

A real shame.

(Incidentally, if anyone wants details of me and my novel, please PM me.)
 
Last edited:

HJW

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
304
Reaction score
38
Location
In my imagination
That's a really good post, Anna. It raises all the reasons why I still think the best way is the old way! Maybe this will change in the future, but I don't think it will be for a while.
 

RandomNotes

Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
29
Reaction score
1
Has your publisher actually read your book, Paul?

I agree it's gratifying to have a handful of people say they love what we've written but it's a shame that some writers are happy to accept the third-rate from the likes of YWO which claims (quite wrongly) to be giving them the best and being on their side when they could do so much better.

A real shame.

(Incidentally, if anyone wants details of me and my novel, please PM me.)

Anna, you need to re-read my post!

I was having a crises of faith. I was about to give up writing. Despite winning competitions for fiction, despite seeing one of my plays performed as reward for that, despite a "good" number of publishers reading the very book I published with YWO, despite a few wanting to see more, despite getting short listed for various competitions, the book remained unsold.

I was on the verge of heading back to the "real world" and a PAYE job, when YWO appeared, and despite the shoddy treatment (and it is very shoddy) the experience renewed me. I became at ease with my writing again, I started to write again, I became at ease with myself.

The YWO experience was for me cathartic. I am again earning money as a Non-Fiction writer and enjoying writing fiction on the side. My crises is passed. Yet you only see bad stuff here...

Okay, so as you put it, a handful of people will read my book and say "nice" things about it. That's more than if I left it to the publishers who were not interested. And the fact is, there are plenty of books from mainline publishers who are only read by a handful of people, or worse still, never finished at all because they are so poorly written.

Just being accepted and published by a publisher doesn't mean you have a good book. I also happen to believe the reverse.

As to vanity vs self.

I upload my MS to Lulu. They POD it, I sell it. Self publishing

I email my MS to YWO. They POD it, I sell it. Vanity Publishing?


Oh, I nearly forgot. If anyone wants to PM me about my book, I’ll be happy to reply

(One good plug deserves another!)
 

petec

Lurking
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
709
Reaction score
432
Random
I think you must get it right.
POD is a method of printing full stop.
Publishing is a whole different kettle of fish.
In your case YWO is your publisher.
You are not Self Published.
If you were published by Lulu, Lulu is your publisher.
If you self published through Lulu, YOU are the publisher and you can deal wit Lulu as a publisher in your own right with Lulu as a printer
 

RandomNotes

Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2008
Messages
29
Reaction score
1
It's splitting hairs Peter. And you know it.

YWO are not doing anything bad, they are doing it very poorly.

Bye guys.
 

priceless1

Banned
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
1,622
Reaction score
446
Location
Somewhere between sanity and barking mad
Website
www.behlerpublications.com
They could publish elsewhere even with an ISBN number, because the YWO contract is nonexclusive. Whether another publisher would want an already-published book, ISBNless or not, is another question. But they could self-publish.

- Victoria
And this is why I agonize over PODs and vanity presses. So many authors believe that publishing their books with these types are a stepping stone to parlaying that book to a bigger, better press. They believe this because of the Cinderella stories - those whose book caught the attention of a bigger fish because of its quality.

The realities are that most of us rarely touch a previously pubbed book because it's too much of a hassle. The book has already populated the online stores, and it's the devil to get that removed. No one wants to compete against their own book, especially when there are so many great stories out there that have never seen the light of day. Then there is the vanity/POD stigma. Just like the myth that reviewers don't judge a book by its cover, many of us see a book being pitched to us that bears a POD or vanity press, and our thoughts instantly turn to, "Is this the best they could do? If so, why are they coming to me now?"

These types of publication aren't stepping stones to something better. In most cases that POD/vanity book is going to die a slow, obscure death. The only way to rectify that problem is to write a better book and treat it (and yourself) with more respect.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Anna, that's a great post--thank you for it. I'll look forward to reading your book in a couple of months: and good luck with the editing, it's at once brilliant and awful, isn't it?

Random, Petec isn't splitting hairs, he's referring to industry-standard definitions.

I still don't believe that [YWO] is vanity publishing and I still believe that it is self publishing.

Self-published books have the name of their author's imprint on the copyright page: yours will have YouWriteOn listed as the publisher. So you haven't self-published this book.

Vanity publishing is the process of paying someone to publish your book for you. You've paid for your ISBN; YWO's name is on your copyright page; so what you've done here is vanity publishing, no matter how you insist otherwise.

I'm not intending to flame you here, Paul: but you can't insist that black is white and then demand that nobody disagrees with you.

Having said that, I'm glad you're happy with your book after all the stress this caused you in the run-up to Christmas. Good luck with it. I hope you sell loads of copies, and make it a great success.
 

Anna Magdalena

Your friendly cynic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
235
Reaction score
53
Location
Yorkshire.
Website
theelephantinthewritingroom.blogspot.com
Anna, you need to re-read my post!

I just have, Random--although I read it carefully the first time, Random! My opinion hasn't changed.

I was on the verge of heading back to the "real world" and a PAYE job, when YWO appeared, and despite the shoddy treatment (and it is very shoddy) the experience renewed me. I became at ease with my writing again, I started to write again, I became at ease with myself.

I'm sorry but I don't get this. I'm pleased you feel 'renewed' and 'at ease with yourself' but how can you when you admit to having been treated shoddily. How can an outfit that doesn't operate any quality control before printing your book give you a boost? Or is it because you'd become bogged down with trying to sell your manuscript and getting no joy from traditional publishers and now with the advent of YWO you could finally 'get it out there' and move on? If that had been me, I would have put it to one side and got on with writing another novel and felt energised that way. Or self-published properly. I warned people on my blog not to have anything to do with YWO's 'publish by Christmas' scheme--and that was before it all went pear-shaped.

The YWO experience was for me cathartic. I am again earning money as a Non-Fiction writer and enjoying writing fiction on the side. My crises is passed. Yet you only see bad stuff here...

I don't see bad stuff. I see sad stuff.

Okay, so as you put it, a handful of people will read my book and say "nice" things about it. That's more than if I left it to the publishers who were not interested. And the fact is, there are plenty of books from mainline publishers who are only read by a handful of people, or worse still, never finished at all because they are so poorly written.

I don't follow your logic here. How can a book published by a mainstream (I think you mean) not be finished? And why didn't you self-publish? You would have been in total control of your book and not subject to people who haven't a clue what they're doing.

Just being accepted and published by a publisher doesn't mean you have a good book. I also happen to believe the reverse.

Again. I don't get this. Whilst I agree with you that a vanity-published book isn't necessarily bad, my experience as a reviewer is that the vast majority of them are. I have read stinkers by people who cannot put a coherent or interesting sentence together. Most need a rigorous edit and the product itself (cover, feel and look of the print on the pages) is poor. Traditionally published books can't hope to appeal to everyone's tastes but I disagree with you that they're all bad. That sounds like sour grapes to me.

My previous post wasn't there to blow my own trumpet but to show how traditional publishers treat their writers and most importantly don't take their money under false pretences and also why I feel you and other YWO writers have been badly treated. You may feel energised by being a published fiction writer but, I agree with Old Hack and Priceless 1 and others who've commented here and believe that in the long run it's not going to do your writing career any favours. Sorry.
 

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
17,864
Reaction score
4,639
Location
dunking doughnuts at Dunkin' Donuts
Why do I have the feeling I'm reading posts about another "traditional" publisher who gives books "the chance they deserve, from sea to shining sea", but shall remain nameless?
 

anneboleyn

Registered
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Messages
18
Reaction score
3
Location
UK
I've just been reading back over some of these posts (hello, I'm a newbie by the way) and am fascinated/horrified..and relieved.

I cancelled my agreement just a few days ago after the email update. All it said in the contract was you had to give 30 days notice. Well, I had no idea when my book was to be published in order to figure out when the 30 days would be! I didn't pay anything though. Does anyone think I might have a problem here? I'm not expecting a confirmation until after the weekend but I'm a bit uncomfortable if I don't get one; I'd like to know my book is off their system...
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Anne, welcome to the Cooler.

From my understanding of the contract (and remember I am not a lawyer), you can give your 30 days' notice at any time, regardless of the progress that your book has made through the system. So long as you've followed the instructions given on how to notify YWO that you wish to cancel, in 30 days' time you should be free and clear of them.

If I were you, though, I'd want confirmation that they've received your cancellation, and that it's all gone through. Do you have a physical address for YouWriteOn? If so, you could send a letter there via registered post which would give you something a little more solid, to show what you'd done.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,956
Location
In chaos
Anna, I think that Ben was referring to YWO here, not to your publisher (which I've heard is pretty damn good, by the way). And, incidentally, I agree with all you've said to Random, but have to point out that I've said it all to him before--here, and on two other writers' forums. Despite all the evidence that I and a lot of other writers have presented him with, and despite him being the focus of some very ugly behaviour on the YWO forums before they went down before Christmas, he won't be swayed.