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YouWriteOn.com / New Generation Publishing / Legend Press

Old Hack

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not really a proper way to deal with the situation.

I've lost count of the number of times people have made that comment about YouWriteOn since this thread started.

I'm with you, Sheryl, about the time-out, by the way. Let's hope that people come over here instead. At least they know their comments won't be deleted, no matter how we disagree with them.

(Welcome, Random, to the board. I hope you find your way to other parts of Absolute Write, and don't get stuck in this one thread: there's lots here that might help you.)
 

RandomNotes

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One of the more frequently asked questions asked here is why people chose YWO over LS or Lulu.

This isn’t an easy one to answer. For me it was partly my circumstances. I had a book that people loved and, due to the sudden loss of my job, I had time to edit that book prior to publication, and, more importantly, a deadline to focus my mind.

Was that all I considered? Well no not really. Another consideration was ease of use and cost and at the time, YWO appeared to be the winner in all these…

At the time…

In the early days of this all, YWO appeared, as I say, to be the easy option. They just needed a PDF or WORD document and … Job done. As it turns out, this was not to be the case. Many of us found that YWO struggled with manually tweaking covers and text to make them suitable for LS to POD out into the wide world.

In comparision Lulu really does win when it comes to ease of use. Their user-friendly web-based interface is just childishly simple to use. You upload the document, it converts this for you, even sends you an email when it is done, then you can download a PDF version of this to check you like it. Job done! Covers are also dealt with in a cunning fashion where it tells you what sort of error you have made, size or DPI wise, and then goes on to tell you what size and DPI it SHOULD be, allowing you to note down these figures, boot up Photoshop and make the corrections. Job done!


Lightening Source on the other hand seems to be fairly user friendly, but when you start trying to use the site you will find that you need to be emailed back, they will tell you that LS don’t deal with writers direct (which is true of all PODs but LS seems a little more direct than others) and you will have to wade through pages of PDF documentation to figure out what you need to do. Creating a cover is fairly easy, if you can work with an EPS template. I can, but how many here know what EPS is?


So much for usability, what about cost?

YWO publishes with a single ISBN for 39.99

Lulu has “Distribution” packages of varying costs and it looks as though for 79.99 you get 10 ISBN’s. Fine if you need another 9 or know 9 other writers you can sell them on to (if that can be done with Lulu purchased ISBN’s) not so cool if you don’t. There appear to be no other setup costs with Lulu.

LS wants you to get your own ISBN. That means shelling out 100 quid for 10. Again, if you need it, can flog it on, cool, if not, not so cool. They also want 42 pounds to setup the book. Making them the most expensive option from all three.


What about cost per unit for a 350 page book?

YWO set the retail price at 7.99 – 1 pound goes to the author giving a unit cost of 6.99 plus UK postage
Lulu allow you to set the retail at whatever you like, but unit cost is slightly higher at 7.30 plus US postage (exchange rates as of 24th dec 08 – liable to change!)
LS also allow you to set the retail cost but with a unit cost cheaper than anyone at 4.20 per book plus UK postage.


So, who is the winner? Well it depends on how much you want to be involved. All of them offer the same thing, book printed and on the market, with Lulu being the easiest to use and LS offering the cheapest unit cost and YWO offering the lowest setup costs (assuming you don’t want 9 more ISBN’s). Lulu will get it to you pretty quickly, as will LS, while with YWO you are in the lap of the gods. You can also get a pre-publication copy with LS and Lulu to check for glaring errors in layout and so on, while with YWO, it looks as though this option is not there.

If I did it again, who would I chose? To be honest with you I don’t like the idea of being at the mercy of exchange and postal rate increases, as I would be with Lulu, and I am not keen on the perceived attitude of LS towards authors, and I hate the way YWO just doesn’t answer emails. But then if you read the Lulu UK forums, you can see that Lulu’s customer fulfilment unit is sometimes less than stellar! At the end of the day, I would probably have another crack at LS, although it would have to be a book I really believed in.

In all, and on balance, I think I would rather have a beer somewhere! However, there is an odd thing that I don’t understand from the posts here. Apart from Lulu being easier to set-up and LS having a cheaper unit cost, why are they NOT regarded as a vanity publisher, yet YWO are?

Pound for pound, there really isn’t much in it.

LS is cheaper per unit but dearer to set up
Lulu is beset with exchange rate fluctuations and high postal charges
YWO are inept at best

But at the end of the day, they all provide a published book that is funded by the author. To me, that is the definition of vanity publishing and as such means that anyone who self publishes is, by definition, publishing for reasons of vanity. Vanity remember comes in different flavours and colours. Mine being the “I know this book is worth publishing” colour (which is sort of an off shade purple) while others will be of the “I believe I can make money from this" (which is a sort of hued skew of yellow and blue).

With the sort of unit numbers we are talking about here (less than 100), are we really just arguing about how many angels can dance on inkjet printers head?

Lulu isn't vanity, but YWO are and LS aren't even though YWO use LS for the POD bit.

Confused? You betcha...
 

petec

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When large chunks of "Ted-speak" are removed from his message, the relevant points seem to be:

"There comes a point when a website grows to become community driven more than web-site led and YouWriteOn has in many ways reached this point from a simple starting point of review exchange. This was never a brilliant idea in itself


For the new publishing side, Our aim is to sell lower priced print-on-demand (POD)


Looking forward, book publishing development will take time , it is little more than a month old here with the first books for free publishing set-up appearing this month.

we plan to develop new systems to make this an innovative POD system which ties in with book development in the New Year."

Does this mean YWO are going to become a true Vanity Publisher in the new year?

Does the content of para one mean the community of members is threatening the leadership of the web site administrator?

Does "This was never a brilliant idea in itself" mean huge amounts of public money has been spent on something that wasn't even a good idea?
 

qwerty

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Meanwhile, the message board is closed to traffic in case anyone from the member community wants to ask akward questions.
 

Old Hack

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Apart from Lulu being easier to set-up and LS having a cheaper unit cost, why are they NOT regarded as a vanity publisher, yet YWO are?

Lulu and LS don't pretend to be publishers: they offer a printing service, that's all, although they do supply help such as ISBNs if you ask for it. They don't mislead people about what they do, nor do they imply that they're competing with mainstream publishers, breaking the mould of traditional publishing, or anything like that.

YWO claims to be a real publisher, but does little or nothing to ensure quality of the finished product: for example, there's no editorial selection involved in the publishing scheme, nor are the books edited or even error-checked. All YWO does is take books from writers and download them onto LS's servers--often introducing errors in the process, as Random has already described--and for doing that, it takes a high share of the income from each book. Moreover, Ted's already started encouraging people to buy their books in bulk (subtly, by suggesting that writers with high advance orders got preferential treatment with the publishing process; and overtly, on the message board, which has been quoted here): he's going to make his money from his writers, not from his readers, which is a classic definition of a vanity press.

YWO has already earned a decent amount of money out of this publishing scheme, and yet the writers are left with little or nothing: with books they can't proof-read or buy. And yet many of them are (or were, before the message board disappeared) still insisting that Ted's a good guy, and that he knows what he's doing; and the few who do still dare to make waves, and point out that the service they've received is just not good enough, are shouted down and insulted.

(Incidentally, Random, I thought that the way you were treated on the board there was dreadful: you were entitled to ask the questions that you did, and were perfectly polite: so why were you treated so rudely? I saw no reason for it at all.)

It reminds me of the PublishAmerica business model. What ever next? Tone letters?
 

RandomNotes

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Some of the errors were terrible. I was really crapping myself as the common spelling of my name is with a "C" where as mine is without and I just had that feeling.... Other authors have seen their names spelt incorrectly on the covers of their own books. That's terrible. Fortunatly mine was okay.

So okay. Ted is making money, although by my calculatons he is making less money than Lulu make, about 3 pounds less per unit (based on 350 page book). I can only guess how much money LS are making, but I would imagine that using my figures in this thread, it is less than Ted.

So I guess it comes down to YWO claim to being a publisher. Although you can opt for the "Published by Lulu" distrubition option, which makes Lulu the publisher... See what I mean? This "he is a vanity publisher but they are not" argument is fraught with exceptions that fail to prove the rule. Far as I can see, all self publishing is a a publish of the vanity kind or another.

No offence intended for anyone who has self published as I have done this myself.

Just to add to this that I do think Ted has behaved in a less than professional manner. I don't personally think he is out to make money or indeed con people, I think he had, what he thought was a good idea and discovered that he couldn't handle it, basicaly because he had no prior experince in doing this type of thing. The fact that he did a launch with 5,000 writers was reckless, not only with his reputation but also with the feelings of those people he dealt with. From his side, he believes that his attention to detail, his striving to get books ready for POD even though they were formatted incorrectly was him doing "the right thing", even though this caused massive delays to everyone that did format their books correctly.

It's that perspective thing again. Ted thought he was the good guy, some of us thought he should be doing it differently, some others think he is a great guy for producing a free book - free if you didn't buy an ISBN.

So who's the winner here? Well I have a lot more grey hairs than when I started. I have a cover design that I am not happy with and I have a broken promise from Ted, on the forums, that we would have a say in which template we could have on our cover. I don't have the book. I don't have any hope of seeing it until well into the new year and I don't have a choice about how much I can market it for, something that I don't remember agreeing too.

If I hadn't have paid for the ISBN, then I would probably be about the same as above, except my credit card would show 39.99 less and I would have a POD book that is cheaper to buy than Lulu, cost less to setup than LS, but has none of the quailty controls offered by either.

What will I do? I come from a working class background where we grew up with little or no money, so I will make the best out of it as I can. But first I will buy a copy for myself to make sure the print is readable, the layout is how it should be and there are no glaring erros as before I sell this book, I want to be sure I am not cheating anyone.
 
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priceless1

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No offence intended for anyone who has self published as I have done this myself.
We need to be really careful to use the correct verbiage because it causes confusion, all to the vanity publishers' benefit. Self publishing is when you purchase an ISBN in your own company's name - that you created. You are the publisher and assume every aspect of production, distribution, and order processing. Your company's name is on the copyright page and on the spine of your book.

Vanity publishing is when you pay someone else to be the publisher, and their name goes on the copyright page, and they control the production and outcome of the product. Vanity publishers started using this term when they saw that true self publishing was gaining in respect. It's confusing to most authors, and it's a shame because there is a mountain of difference.
 

eqb

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This "he is a vanity publisher but they are not" argument is fraught with exceptions that fail to prove the rule. Far as I can see, all self publishing is a a publish of the vanity kind or another.

The main difference between self-publishing and vanity publishing is who controls the book. (Though you're right that things get fuzzy.)

Remember, too, that there's a new twist on vanity publication, where the publisher either requires or *encourages* authors to buy their own copies. The author often gets little or no discount, and they also don't receive royalties on those books. Self-publishing outfits don't do that.
 

Old Hack

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Random, I've had a look through the various books on B&N and Amazon, and have seen so many errors it's awful: books which have one title and/or author name on the B&N search details, but different ones on the cover; books with spelling errors in the titles and/or the author names on the B&N search details, or on the cover; books with synopses which clearly don't belong to the titles they've been assigned to. I could go on.

There was one author who was assured by Ted on the message board that they'd get an extra-special cover design because she was a long-term YWO member: he promised her a design featuring a WWII fighter plane--I remember reading the thread in which he made that promise--who earlier today (before the message board went down) asked what had happened with her specially-designed cover, as her book had exactly the same template design as so many other books.

Meanwhile, I don't care if you come from a working-class background or any other: you should have been treated with respect and decency, and in my view, you've not been. Stop apologising for that. There's no need.
 

RandomNotes

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I wasn't applogising for coming from a working class background I was just saying that my dad did what he could with what he had. If you see what I mean.
 

Old Hack

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My mistake, Random. I see what you mean now. I must have needed more coffee, or less Cava, when I typed my previous message.

Merry Christmas, by the way. I hope all goes well for you in the new year.
 

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Ooh, Well, I may well disappear after posting - but I'm not doing a runner, honest, just that YWO has taken up too much of my time recently and I have to prioritise!

I've not been on the boards over there for a couple of weeks ... not even popped in for a peek ... but I was a smidge surprised to find out when I tried to, I couldn't!

It's a sad day when I have to pop over here to find out what's going on over there!

Now look ... I can't stop using exclamation marks!!!!

Anyhoo - what I do like about YWO is their review system - great, love it, happy, happy, happy with it.
I went for the offer as well, in fact I post on the same id over there as here so no secret about that.
My reason for going for it was possibly less complicated than most;- the offer came up, it was £40, I'd always said I would never, ever, ever, self-publish, but, I thought for the sake of 'wasting' £40, I would try and get my trial children's rhyming text out there because lots of publishers and agents had told me that my work would be accepted if I was a known author - no secret about that either because I've been on the boards squarking about it before.

When it all started to go belly up, my main gripe was that this was yet again another company that promised the earth and didn't come up with the goods. When times are hard and getting harder, companies (whether publishers or whatever) are only going to survive if they do the job and do it right. It's one of my soap-box issues.
Yes, when you read the contract you get all the weasle words and spin, yadda, yadda, yadda - but if I wanted to listen to that I'd watch a re-run of Gordon Brown's speeches ...

The bottom line is this was set-up and sold as, a 'Christmas Offer,' not an 'after Christmas Offer,' and Ted certainly led folk to believe (until he disappeared) that they were on target.
Many people, on the strength of this, either got their hopes up and/or arranged publicity - only to be let down.
Not on.

Then of course, you get the folks coming on feeling sorry for Dear Old Ted, who is working very, very hard. Well, tough. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Ted's idea, Ted's business plan, Ted's schedule, Ted's staffing levels - ie Ted's responsibility. Do it, do it right, do it on time, or don't do it at all, but for heaven's sake, don't make EXCUSES!!!!
When, oh when, will companies return to the ethos that the customer, their time and money, are more important than that of the company?

Then you get a blasted email from Ted intimating that the delay was because of those nortie people who couldn't follow instructions - but they didn't get in touch with those nortie people, they managed to sort it 'in house.' Makes me wonder if a) people got it wrong at all, and b) if Ted's instructions were somewhat lacking ...

Anyhow, as a long-term business plan, it stinks. This little business venture, I feel at least, has done the site as a whole no favours whatsoever ... and taking the boards down ... work of genius.

... I'm off now, it's not worth getting agitated over and besides which I've got a carpet to scrub ...
 

qwerty

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The bottom line is this was set-up and sold as, a 'Christmas Offer,' not an 'after Christmas Offer,' and Ted certainly led folk to believe (until he disappeared) that they were on target.
Many people, on the strength of this, either got their hopes up and/or arranged publicity - only to be let down.
Not on.

Well hello, Dolly. Excuse me, I don't hink we've met or anything, but I think I'm in love with your writing style.

Trying to pick my way through what Ted is actually saying on his Christmas message, I think this is the bit that got my throat in the strong grip:

"It doesn't matter whether an agreement says that Christmas publishing is an aim not a guarantee because of 'unpredictable events', people will think a book will be ready."

Too damn right they thought their book would be ready for Christmas. Isn't that what was said in the initial announcement?

Golly, Dolly, it's too late to say Happy Christmas, so may I wish you happy carpet scrubbing?
 

Dollywagon

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Hello Qwerty,
... scrubbing carpets ... I've got a face like a smacked backside I'm soooo happy about it!

I think, somewhere, the original offer said, your book, 'will be in reader's hands by Christmas.'

Thing is, I would think they would have to put a clause relating to late publication somewhere in the contract just to cover their backs - what annoys me it that it should have been for the exception, not the rule, and Ted seems to be using the clause for precisely that reason.
We have no idea how many have been published apart from 'lots,' which means diddly really.
If YWO knew they hadn't got a cat in hells chance of making the deadline with the amount of publications they were offering, then they knew the clause would come in very handy.
I think in the statement they have up at the minute they say the applications exceeded their expectations - in excess of 5,000 then? because the offer was only open to that number of applications and if it was under then YWO should have been at least in with a chance of meeting their obligation, and if it was over 5,000 they shouldn't have been attempting it ...

But I'm just feeling snippy ...
 

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It’s no good, I’ve had a little read through, only a little ‘un mind, and feel I have to clarify my position on this.

Firstly, I don’t think Ted or YWO are scammers, neither do I think they reflect the ideology of PA, not unless they start charging $4,000 anyway.

I think, as I’ve said from the start, that this was a business plan poorly thought out and executed. Trouble is, industry and commerce in general seem packed full of plans such as this and, I believe, it is absolutely essential to the UK economy they smarten up and get good.

I will also say that YWO is completely different to AW, in that it is essentially a review site – the forum is only a small part of it and I think most members, under normal circumstances, only venture in there occasionally.

The review system is good; well structured, gives guidance on how to review, and from what I’ve seen, gives good results in improving writing.
From my own perspective, I’d started a children’s novel, which is something I’d never done before, decided it was rubbish and was going to bin it (even though my own AW beta thought it was good) Then I found YWO, read through other stuff on the site and decided to put it up, take the stick, and then bin it. But it didn’t take the stick – not to the extent I expected anyway. I got some criticisms of areas I thought needed improvement, some I hadn’t realised needed improvement and the whole thing spurred me on again – hey, I can do this!

I don’t know how many people commenting on here have either posted stories or reviewed, but a few weeks back I do know they were commenting on the system and recommending Ask the Agent/Editor on AW as an alternative.
It is helpful for some, but it isn’t an alternative.

With regard to Ted removing threads: Hmm, I did mention to Old Hack (on YWO) that I was surprised she hadn’t had some removed before, I think this was a couple of days previous to her saying some had gone (and according to the threads posting here, Ted confirmed this) I mentioned it because I honestly don’t think other sites would have tolerated such statements as, “I don’t like to see writers getting ripped off…” Ouch!

I also saw on this board (I’m talking a couple of weeks ago now) Victoria saying the book covers were ‘ugly,’ and a couple of folk trawling the books that were already published for spelling mistakes and grammatical errors – my impression at the time was that the AW folk weren’t actually being very supportive of fellow writers … ie; it read as if commentators were being critical of the quality of the work submitted – now, it seems, that YWO are at fault.

I also hit the board at the time when there were suggestions being made that the 10% of profits going to charity weren’t known to be coming out of author’s profits or that of YWO – point is, we didn’t know, and until we did, should really have steered clear of making comments.

Overall, I felt that a little humility and restraint wouldn’t have gone amiss. I would also have liked to see more AW posters over there giving advice, rather than directing people to different sites. If you are that concerned people are being led astray then the mountain should go to Mohammed.

I’m actually gutted that this didn’t come off and has turned into a pig’s ear – not because I haven’t got a copy of MY book to hand to people, but because I firmly believe the only way out of the economic hole the UK has got itself into is to ‘get good.’ Obviously I’m not just talking about YWO, but for me it would have been an indication that lessons had been learned, and we were starting to develop a sense of pride in our work and achievements and not go running off somewhere else to ‘see how it’s done.’

Also I was a bit sick to see writers on the site who had got their books published … ‘gloating,’ … yes, that is the word, over others that hadn’t. The whole thing just turned horrible.

So yes, I will support YWO, in respect of its review system, because it is good and I won’t abandon it simply because of this mess. It’s a UK site, the reviews are supported by the Arts Council and it’s UK publishers that give their time in reviewing winning stories – thanks to them all – and, although I find AW extremely helpful and supportive in many aspects, for me, the YWO review system is one I would prefer to stick with.
Things aren’t always black or white, sometimes a nice shade of grey is a happy medium.

… and Old Hack, where on earth do you live in Sheffeld (not a spelling mistake) that you can put up a wind turbine and it get windy enough to get your windows blown in? I used to live there up on a hill and all we got was snow …
 

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Finchlark

Congratulations on receiving your books. I am so pleased that it all worked out for you in the end. The main thing is that YOUR book belongs to YOU and you can change anything you like without involving Ted.

You do not have to answer this, but I am interested in what you pay Lulu per copy compared to what you would have paid YWO.


Thanks I was in time for a press meeting with photos etc. which I thought I was going to miss waiting for YWO! To answer your query, the books costs £2.20 each from Lulu. Of course we never did hear what the cost would be from YWO, but one author posted their email said £5 each plus £3.30 p & p.
 

petec

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I am still trying to find "Share Your Work" if anyone can direct me please?

THIS is a good place to start

Thanks for the info. on book prices. interesting numbers. Did I get that right £8.30 from YWO and £2.20 from Lulu for the same book
 
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qwerty

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I don’t know how many people commenting on here have either posted stories or reviewed,

Been there, done that.

Overall, I felt that a little humility and restraint wouldn’t have gone amiss. I would also have liked to see more AW posters over there giving advice, rather than directing people to different sites. If you are that concerned people are being led astray then the mountain should go to Mohammed.

Given Ted's lack of restraint when he went into a fit of pique and, spouting unfounded accusations, publicly attacked me and a fellow member, I feel comfortable with the restraint I've exercised in my postings here.

The fact that I was unjustly blocked from using the YWO site made it impossible for me to post there. But seeing the way others were treated when they did try to offer fact-based advice, I would be reluctant to post in that hostile environment anyway.
 

Dollywagon

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Been there, done that.

Come on then Qwerty, what did you think?
Although I have to admit, I hadn't got you in mind when I suggested some folk ought to take a peek.

Given Ted's lack of restraint when he went into a fit of pique and, spouting unfounded accusations, publicly attacked me and a fellow member, I feel comfortable with the restraint I've exercised in my postings here.

The fact that I was unjustly blocked from using the YWO site made it impossible for me to post there. But seeing the way others were treated when they did try to offer fact-based advice, I would be reluctant to post in that hostile environment anyway.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and I have to be honest, until I saw the postings on here I didn't know anything about your dispute with Ted, so can't really comment on it.
What I can say is, I wasn't exactly restrained in my comments either - can't deny that one - and I don't know if I'm blocked from using the site because I can't get in it!

Thing is, a lot of the stuff posted on here was purely speculation and opinion, things like the charity comments, and they don't just reflect on Ted, they reflect on the members of the site, which is unjust.

Don't get me wrong, the publishing thing has been a pig's ear, but I will be seen to stand up for the aspects of the site that are good - and many things are.
If you meant to imply the review system is bad, then say so, but bear in mind, that yet again, this also reflects on fellow writers in the UK (and outside it, I suppose)

I can well understand your anger at the whole situation - I've blown my top a few times - but everything isn't black and white as I mentioned earlier, and it isn't a case of everything AW does is correct and another site does is wrong.
What we need to do is escape from that mind-set and get our act right, never mind what the neighbours are up to.
 

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And this just in... a friend of mine has just received an email from YWO updating her about the publishing scheme, which she has forwarded on to me.

I'll not put the whole thing up because most of it has been seen before: but here's a highlight.




Sadly I've not been able to fully reproduce the formatting here: there were three fonts used in that selection, and different sizes too: it has the distinct look of having been cobbled together from various posts and emails.

But it's interesting, no?

I'm particularly interested in the point they make about adding VAT to the cost. That implies that YWO forecasts that its income from the scheme will be above the threshold for VAT payments--I'm not sure offhand where that is, as our businesses are well over it. But I'll find out, if no one beats me to it. It's a decent amount of money, anyway.

Sorry, it seems that the email section is missing ...
Anyhow, this confuses me no end and I have to ask, did your friend apply after the initial closing date?
I'm only saying this because I did receive an email, but on the 19th and it wasn't anything like that one, which,according to your post, was sent out on the 17th ...
Mine was, oh heck, here it is and you can see why I'm confused:

"Just wanted to provide you with an update on your book. We have submitted a huge number of books to the printer's very strict guidelines and in line with their high standards of print quite a few have come back with issues with the original files, such as fonts not embedded or low image resolution. It is important that we correct these to match and exceed the high standards you would expect for your book.
I'm afraid your interior file was one of those that came back with a query, though we have worked around the clock to correct as many as possible for each author before Christmas. If we haven't requested you to resend your files to us then we will have been able to correct in-house and your book will be sent through for completion of production very shortly.
If there are any further issues then I will be in touch but, if it isn't already, we are really pushing your book through to have copies available as soon as possible and we will notify you with details on how to order them as soon as they are available.
With the huge amount of authors that we are working with it is difficult for us to respond to individual enquiries so please bear with us.
We're very excited that we are publishing your work and look forward to helping you make it as big a success as possible.

Happy Christmas and best wishes,
YouWriteOn"